Which of Wilt/Hakeem/Kareem are the best two way players of all time? Offense combined with defense

mdonnelly1989 · Post #1 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:19 am

Which of these players during prime are the best two way players of all time?

Cavsfansince84 · Post #2 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:25 am

Hard to go against Wilt in 67 given how efficient he was with his scoring plus the passing. I think that stands alone for rs two way play. If we lean more towards playoffs it becomes closer and there might be a case for Hakeem but if we had blocks data for Wilt it might be harder to pick anyone but him.

migya · Post #3 » by **migya** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:25 am

Fairly close. Chamberlain, he was extreme on both ends.

Statlanta · Post #4 » by **Statlanta** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:51 am

We don't need the two way label. This is basically asking who's the best player of all time and it's Kareem.

Post #5 » by **penbeast0** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:00 am

That was my first take too, but if the question is to mean anything, I think you have to look at which is the highest value if you take their weaker half of the equation. Wilt and Hakeem are more valuable defensively than offensively; Kareem more valuable offensively than defensively. So, is Wilt or Hakeem's offense more valuable than Kareem's defense? All are obviously great on both sides of the ball and this question might be different if Wilt had better coaches, but I'd take prime Kareem's defense over Wilt or Hakeem's offense.

coastalmarker99 · Post #6 » by **coastalmarker99** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:22 am

Very hard to go against Wilt in 64 and 67 given how efficient he was while also being a lockdown defender.

Wilt in 66-67 averaged 24.1/24.2/7.8 on 29.2% more ts than league average and was 17 percent ahead in FG% 68 to 51 over second place.

Wilt that season also had two instances of 30+ field goals without missing.
* 35 field goals in a row spanning 4 games (which included an NBA record 18 consecutive makes in a single game)
* 32 field goals in a row spanning 4 games

coastalmarker99 · Post #7 » by **coastalmarker99** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:39 am

Wilt had the misfortune of playing 49 out of his first 98 playoff games vs Nate and Russell

If Kareem had to spend most of his prime going up against a prime Nate and a prime Wilt in the playoffs.

Without being able to stat pad against weaker teams in earlier rounds

I am sure that his playoff numbers would have suffered the same way Wilt”s did.

As look at what Nate did to him in 1972 and 1973.

70sFan · Post #8 » by **70sFan** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:09 am

I have all three in the GOAT peak tier, my preference is with this order:

Kareem
Wilt
Hakeem

but any order really would be fine.

MacGill · Post #9 » by **MacGill** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:58 pm

3 of the greatest C's right there but I have Hakeem as my GOAT 2-way center.

70sFan · Post #10 » by **70sFan** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:05 pm

coastalmarker99 wrote:Wilt had the misfortune of playing 49 out of his first 98 playoff games vs Nate and Russell

If Kareem had to spend most of his prime going up against a prime Nate and a prime Wilt in the playoffs.

Without being able to stat pad against weaker teams in earlier rounds

I am sure that his playoff numbers would have suffered the same way Wilt”s did.

As look at what Nate did to him in 1972 and 1973.

What were all these weak teams Kareem padded his stats against in 1970-80 period? I can think of only one bad team - 1974 Lakers.

Wilt also faced quite a few weak teams in the playoffs - 1967 Royals, 1970 Suns...

OhayoKD · Post #11 » by **OhayoKD** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:08 pm

Kareem era-relative prime, Wilt era-relative peak. May consider Hakeem over both for peak if we're talking in absolute terms

FuShengTHEGreat · Post #12 » by **FuShengTHEGreat** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:37 pm

1)Kareem
2) Hakeem
3) Wilt

I have Kareem and Hakeem ranked higher because they both won titles simultaneously anchoring a defense while also being a high volume go to scoring role.

rand · Post #13 » by **rand** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:23 pm

Why aren't Duncan and KG candidates for the best two-way player of all-time?

70sFan · Post #14 » by **70sFan** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:26 pm

rand wrote:Why aren't Duncan and KG candidates for the best two-way player of all-time?

They are.

mdonnelly1989 · Post #15 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:49 pm

rand wrote:Why aren't Duncan and KG candidates for the best two-way player of all-time?

I consider them PF's this is strictly for C's

rk2023 · Post #16 » by **rk2023** » Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:32 pm

Going with a more extended definition of prime, I would take Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in this instance. I just feel he offered more (offensive + Defensive) value for a more consistent span whether it was Bucks and his early Lakers tenure. With Hakeem's passing taking a spike in the early 1990s and Wilt having the issue with harmonizing his scoring and playmaking in earlier years - feel somewhat confident in making this pick.

Funnily enough, neither of the three's offenses and defenses peaked at the same time (where I like late Lakers Wilt, 89/90 Hakeem, younger Bucks Kareem the most on defense as opposed to 67 Wilt, 94/95 Hakeem, Lakers [like 1977] Kareem on offense). I think at their best season(s), Wilt and Kareem added the most aggregate value (I lean Kareem all in all), then Hakeem.

90sAllDecade · Post #17 » by **90sAllDecade** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:14 am

It's Hakeem, respect for Kareem as an all-time great. He was on another level offensively, but Hakeem was on another level defensively from Kareem. Moses used to outplay and at times dominate Kareem in the playoffs as well.

migya · Post #18 » by **migya** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:31 am

rand wrote:Why aren't Duncan and KG candidates for the best two-way player of all-time?

Neither is comparable to the three in this thread.

70sFan · Post #19 » by **70sFan** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:58 am

migya wrote:
rand wrote:Why aren't Duncan and KG candidates for the best two-way player of all-time?

Neither is comparable to the three in this thread.

Duncan not comparable? Come on...

70sFan · Post #20 » by **70sFan** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:00 am

90sAllDecade wrote:It's Hakeem, respect for Kareem as an all-time great. He was on another level offensively, but Hakeem was on another level defensively from Kareem. Moses used to outplay and at times dominate Kareem in the playoffs as well.

When Moses "dominated" Kareem in the finals, Jabbar was 36 years old. At that age, Hakeem was washed up and was no longer relevant.