Offensively: Current Jokic or 2016 Curry?

[Peregrine01]

I used to think it might be impossible to be more impactful than 2016 Curry was offensively but now watching Jokic, I’m just not sure. Jokic has a persistent offensive impact that Curry never did and I think it’s more valuable than the Curry explosions now and then.

[Statlanta]

Curry since it is just RS vs. RS.

Unrestricted shot selection is more game-warping than half-court playmaking/efficiency in my opinion.

[ceiling raiser]

Give me Curry but Jokic is growing on me.

[The High Cyde]

Curry was incredible that year, it was pure magic when the Warriors came into the building pulling the rug under the opposing team. Damn near every game would be over by midway through the third quarter or earlier. They looked like they were playing in a different league, they were so ahead of it, and of course Steph was the juice that powered it all. It would behoove one to remember that it was also Kerr, Draymond, Klay, Iggy that made that season so prolific. And yet Jokic, by his lonesome, is doing something even more absurd. His stats barely even make sense right now. It’s still tough to pick Jokic over Steph, and I feel dirty picking anyone over 2016 Steph honestly, but player to player, I’m chillin’ with the Joker.

[No-more-rings]

I just noticed Jokic is averaging a +23 on/off, is that a record? Lol.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I've repeatedly said before that I think Jokic is a better offensive player than Curry in a PS setting. However, if you are asking, who do you believe was more VALUABLE offensive player during the RS on offense, I believe 2016 Steph is still the gold standard.

2016 Steph
O-RAPTOR (RS Only):11.1
O-LEBRON: 6.75
O-RPM: 12.03
O-EPM: 8.8
O-BPM: 10.4

2023 Jokic
O-RAPTOR: 10.1
O-LEBRON: 5.
O-RPM: 5.51
O-EPM: 7.9
O-BPM: 8.8

I think that keeping in mind the general scoring environment and average efficiency of the era, 2016 Steph has a strong argument for the best scoring RS ever. 2016 Steph is tied with 1971, for the highest ScoreVal ever at 3.3.

[rk2023]

I've repeatedly said before that I think Jokic is a better offensive player than Curry in a PS setting. However, if you are asking, who do you believe was more VALUABLE offensive player during the RS on offense, I believe 2016 Steph is still the gold standard.

2016 Steph
O-RAPTOR (RS Only):11.1
O-LEBRON: 6.75
O-RPM: 12.03
O-EPM: 8.8
O-BPM: 10.4

2023 Jokic
O-RAPTOR: 10.1
O-LEBRON: 5.
O-RPM: 5.51
O-EPM: 7.9
O-BPM: 8.8

I think that keeping in mind the general scoring environment and average efficiency of the era, 2016 Steph has a strong argument for the best scoring RS ever. 2016 Steph is tied with 1971, for the highest ScoreVal ever at 3.3.

Thanks for the share, am curious how Kareem's and Steph's best years stack up historically in ScoreVal - both for RS/PS.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I've repeatedly said before that I think Jokic is a better offensive player than Curry in a PS setting. However, if you are asking, who do you believe was more VALUABLE offensive player during the RS on offense, I believe 2016 Steph is still the gold standard.

2016 Steph
O-RAPTOR (RS Only):11.1
O-LEBRON: 6.75
O-RPM: 12.03
O-EPM: 8.8
O-BPM: 10.4

2023 Jokic
O-RAPTOR: 10.1
O-LEBRON: 5.
O-RPM: 5.51
O-EPM: 7.9
O-BPM: 8.8

I think that keeping in mind the general scoring environment and average efficiency of the era, 2016 Steph has a strong argument for the best scoring RS ever. 2016 Steph is tied with 1971, for the highest ScoreVal ever at 3.3.

Thanks for the share, am curious how Kareem's and Steph's best years stack up historically in ScoreVal - both for RS/PS.

Could you elaborate on what you are looking for? What I posted were single year RS peaks.

Kareem's PS Peak in 77, was a 4.4, which is #1 all-time for people who have played at least 200 mins.

Steph's peak was in 17 at 2.6.

[rk2023]

I've repeatedly said before that I think Jokic is a better offensive player than Curry in a PS setting. However, if you are asking, who do you believe was more VALUABLE offensive player during the RS on offense, I believe 2016 Steph is still the gold standard.

2016 Steph
O-RAPTOR (RS Only):11.1
O-LEBRON: 6.75
O-RPM: 12.03
O-EPM: 8.8
O-BPM: 10.4

2023 Jokic
O-RAPTOR: 10.1
O-LEBRON: 5.
O-RPM: 5.51
O-EPM: 7.9
O-BPM: 8.8

I think that keeping in mind the general scoring environment and average efficiency of the era, 2016 Steph has a strong argument for the best scoring RS ever. 2016 Steph is tied with 1971, for the highest ScoreVal ever at 3.3.

Thanks for the share, am curious how Kareem's and Steph's best years stack up historically in ScoreVal - both for RS/PS.

Could you elaborate on what you are looking for? What I posted were single year RS peaks.

Kareem's PS Peak in 77, was a 4.4, which is #1 all-time for people who have played at least 200 mins.

Steph's peak was in 17 at 2.6.

Oh I was wondering if you knew (say like) how their best 5 RS and PS runs look?

[HeartBreakKid]

Jokic eats Curry for breakfast. Curry is like a 60% shooter in the post season which is great and elite, maybe Jokic won't be much better than that this year (I think he will be, his game seems harder to stop than Curry's) - but the passing chasm is really big.

The fact that Jokic is putting up 70 TS% in the RS is just a cherry on top. But realistically, Curry was nowhere near as good in the PS as he is in the RS.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Thanks for the share, am curious how Kareem's and Steph's best years stack up historically in ScoreVal - both for RS/PS.

Could you elaborate on what you are looking for? What I posted were single year RS peaks.

Kareem's PS Peak in 77, was a 4.4, which is #1 all-time for people who have played at least 200 mins.

Steph's peak was in 17 at 2.6.

Oh I was wondering if you knew (say like) how their best 5 RS and PS runs look?

Kareem

RS
71-3.3
72-3.2
73-2.5
77-2.5
83-2.4

PS
77-4.4
70-3.5
80-3.1
74-2.9
79-2.6

Steph

RS
16-3.3
18-2.4
21-2.1
15-2
19-1.8

PS
17-2.6
15-1.8
19-1.5
16-1.3
18-1.1

[RCM88x]

Relative to league average Curry was better by a clear margin to me.

[Clyde Frazier]

I know it sounds hyperbolic, but I'm still not sure I've seen another player bend the defense the way Curry did in 2016. It could admittedly be partially due to the evolution of the game at the time. At the least I'll call it a toss up. For the record I'm answering this for regular season only since jokic hasn't played in the playoffs yet.

[No-more-rings]

I feel like Jokic is just a better player at this point. We can talk about defense, but Jokic hasn’t had the luxury of being surrounded by a loaded defensive cast like Curry had most or all of his prime.

[Colbinii]

I just noticed Jokic is averaging a +23 on/off, is that a record? Lol.

Garnett was +23.6 on 2003

[70sFan]

I feel like Jokic is just a better player at this point. We can talk about defense, but Jokic hasn’t had the luxury of being surrounded by a loaded defensive cast like Curry had most or all of his prime.

I'd love to see Jokic surrounded by great defensive players.

[parsnips33]

I feel like Jokic is just a better player at this point. We can talk about defense, but Jokic hasn’t had the luxury of being surrounded by a loaded defensive cast like Curry had most or all of his prime.

Why is this relevant?

[OhayoKD]

I used to think it might be impossible to be more impactful than 2016 Curry was offensively but now watching Jokic, I’m just not sure. Jokic has a persistent offensive impact that Curry never did and I think it’s more valuable than the Curry explosions now and then.

Curry might be competitive(or better) from a pure impact perspective(probably aided by the league never seeing anything like that before), but I feel Jokic may actually be a better offensive player in the absolute(at least if we kept era-tranposition to the 10's and 20's). I don't think it's crazy to think of him as the best passer ever and even in league absolutely juiced with talented playmaking helios, Jokic is somehow lapping the field in "fg% boost from passing" and basically riding offense to take a very, very limited team to a 60 win pace. He can score really every way and I don't know I've seen anyone match his combination of creativity, manipulation, and accuracy. Honestly feel his velocity is underrated even if he can't quite generate the power a Lebron can.

That being said, I'm not sure I can get over the defensive part of this. I think Curry was actually quite decent defensively in 2015 and at least a positive from 16-19. His ability to rack up steals is probably boosting his metrics a little, but Curry actually doesn't gamble much, and as a guard, the lack of paint protection really isn't an issue. I think he's actually a decent man defender position to position(does seem to hold most opposing pg's below their usual averages going off playoff data) and he knows how to funnel bigger players to better defenders(did this vs Lebron in 2015 and Harden in 2018).

Jokic might just be the smartest player in the league(honestly think his iq might be better than Lebron tbh), and so that means he's also able to replicate Curry's ability to pick up steals without gambling, but the lack of paint protection presents a real issue when you're a center and as one might expect, he really isn't doing much when he faces big man. Granted in certain situations he can do some work vs teams with relatively undersized interior threats(see game 7 defense vs kawhi and paul george), but I haven't seen that replicated nearly enough to see his defense(at least in these recent) eras as a big big concern. I also think the positional scarcity add from being a stretch/playmaking 5, is relatively muted when you have unprecedented mobility from today's defensive big men. Giannis and AD are Garnett-level switchable with paint-protection to match, and Draymond pairs similar versatility/mobility with maybe being the smartest defender ever. I think we saw this in the series between the Nuggets and the Lakers where AD basically left lebron in the paint and it was Murray, not Jokic who went off. Off course Jokic did pretty well facing a smaller assignment in draymond, but I think Davis, Giannis, Bam could do well. Even something like SImmons/Embid should be quite effective.

All considered, while I think Jokic might be a better regular season player or at least a better regular season offensive player in the modern game, and potentially league breaking at earlier points(though curry also has this in his club), I think I'd still trust Curry if I was trying to win a championsihp

[OhayoKD]

I just noticed Jokic is averaging a +23 on/off, is that a record? Lol.

Garnett was +23.6 on 2003

Would have expected this from 04

[Colbinii]

I feel like Jokic is just a better player at this point. We can talk about defense, but Jokic hasn’t had the luxury of being surrounded by a loaded defensive cast like Curry had most or all of his prime.

I'd love to see Jokic surrounded by great defensive players.

We are seeing Jokic surrounded by good-to-very-good defensive players this season and I expect the playoffs to be different than the previous 2 seasons.

Very few Offensive Stars in NBA History were ever surrounded by a Draymond-tier defender though.