Offensively, which aspects is Dirk better than Jokic?

[frica]

Is it obvious? Certainly not shooting below the arc, that clearly favors Jokic. FT shooting, sure. So far, also 3pt shooting over Jokic's career to date. But not on long twos to any meaningful degree, definitely not on middies, and of course Jokic crushes him anywhere in closer.

So yeah, not so much "obviously."

I think you could argue based on how the league defends the shots today vs mid 00s Dirk does clearly have an advantage on long 2s.

Are we sure this really makes a difference for guys at extreme height?

I don't think there's any doubt that it's easier for smaller guys not to get their midrange shots blocked in today's game, and thus you cannot say that a guy with the same FG% from the midrange now is doing something as hard as it was back in the day, but I'm not sure it really makes a difference for tall guys.

Now, I'm sure that the spacing of today's game makes it easier for tall guys not to get the ball stolen in the midrange, so that part is easier, but just shooting-wise, I'm not so sure.

I then look at bkref's shooting split percentages and find myself thinking that if what Jokic is doing this year is something he can sustain going forward, there's real reason to ask whether Jokic has surpassed Dirk on this front. I wouldn't feel comfortable making that leap yet, but it's something that I think we've got to be ready to see as a real possibility.

Dirk will still have arguments for shooting overall even if this is the case, but yeah, shooting is what made Dirk special, and Jokic has become so good at it that even though Jokic can't possibly be as good at shooting as he is at passing, he may erase Dirk's advantage in the comparison.

(Dirk also has a mobility edge which is not nothing, but also not really a key strength for Dirk compared to other stars.)

I think Jokic's release is a bit too high to ever be very reliable out to 3.

Though knowing he's Jokic... there's a way.

[SeattleJazzFan]

none

[Peregrine01]

Shooting the 3 and that might be about it. Crazy to think because Dirk is one of the greatest offensive bigs of all time.

[McBubbles]

Shooting obviously.

Is it obvious? Certainly not shooting below the arc, that clearly favors Jokic. FT shooting, sure. So far, also 3pt shooting over Jokic's career to date. But not on long twos to any meaningful degree, definitely not on middies, and of course Jokic crushes him anywhere in closer.

So yeah, not so much "obviously."

Several posters in this thread have echoed this sentiment. Respectfully, what the hell are you guys talking about? Dirk's mid-range volume in his best shooting season is literally pentuple Jokic's while having a negligible difference in conversion rates.

In Joker's most efficient season from mid-range (last year to my knowledge), he shot 53.5% on 1.7FGA. In Dirks most efficient season from mid-range he shot 52.9% on 9.1FGA.

That's -0.6FG% on 5.3x the volume.

Even if you use a combination of both volume and efficiency for Jokic in order to get his best and most productive season from mid-range, you get 51.4% on 3.3 attempts per game in 2021 compared to Dirk's 52.9% on 9.1FGA.
So he was -1.5% worse than Dirk whilst having a 3rd of Dirk's volume.

They're stratosphere's apart, not even slightly close. The bolded above is synonymous with saying "Nash isn't any worse than Dirk in the mid-range to any meaningful degree" (which is extra funny because Nash's best mid-range season is actually better than Jokic's too )

That's without even mentioning generally how much easier it is to score in the 2020's vs the the 2000's and early 2010's. Durant's best mid-range season pre pace and space was 2016 in which he shot 49.6% on 5.5FGA. Now after multiple injuries and surgeries he's had multiple seasons shooting above 56% on over 6 attempts per game. Similar story with DeRozan as well. Similar story with every single players paint percentage.

Either I'm missing something here or you guys are severely overrating Jokic's mid-range and underrating Dirk's.

Edit - In response to Tsherkin specifically, not trying to be a snark but it kinda is obvious lol. Dirk poops on Jokic from mid-range, and then is also much better than him from the FT line and from 3. Jokic has zero argument outside of 10 feet.

Jokic >>> Dirk 10 feet ≤, Dirk >>> Jokic 10 feet ≥.

[ty 4191]

Shooting obviously.

Is it obvious? Certainly not shooting below the arc, that clearly favors Jokic. FT shooting, sure. So far, also 3pt shooting over Jokic's career to date. But not on long twos to any meaningful degree, definitely not on middies, and of course Jokic crushes him anywhere in closer.

So yeah, not so much "obviously."

Dirk was a mid range master, definitely better than Jokic.

What's the exact definition of mid range, in feet?

[70sFan]

Is it obvious? Certainly not shooting below the arc, that clearly favors Jokic. FT shooting, sure. So far, also 3pt shooting over Jokic's career to date. But not on long twos to any meaningful degree, definitely not on middies, and of course Jokic crushes him anywhere in closer.

So yeah, not so much "obviously."

Dirk was a mid range master, definitely better than Jokic.

What's the exact definition of mid range, in feet?

It depends, but most people view midrange as anything in between the paint and three point line. Most people use the range from 10 feet to the 3P line. Here is the comparison:

2021-23 Jokic: 51.5% on 3.0 FGA

2006-08 Dirk: 49.3% on 10.4 FGA
2009-11 Dirk: 48.4% on 11.9 FGA

I think it's fair to say that Dirk was a better midrange shooter give the gigantic volume edge. Dirk was also a better three point shooter and FT shooter, so it's fair to call him a better shooter period.

[Joao Saraiva]

For people saying TO economy... that has to come also with the value of Jokic's playmaking. Dirk certainly was good at that, but he was also not delivering the playmaking Jokic is. So while Dirk had less TOs... considering what Jokic's passing does for the team, is he really turning the ball that much so we can say he's not economic when it comes to that regard?

[Texas Chuck]

For people saying TO economy... that has to come also with the value of Jokic's playmaking. Dirk certainly was good at that, but he was also not delivering the playmaking Jokic is. So while Dirk had less TOs... considering what Jokic's passing does for the team, is he really turning the ball that much so we can say he's not economic when it comes to that regard?

I think we have to just accept their roles are wildly different. Take Luka. He turns the ball over a fair bit(though much improved this season), but his teams with him dominating the ball have been very low turnover teams. Dallas teams around Dirk were always at the very top of the league. I think its safe to say Dirk's ball security and gravity were definitely a significant factor in this regard.

Jokic its been more of a mixed bag. As he ascends into the main guy, the Nuggets are consistently an above average but not elite team in terms of ball security. Last season and this its been a bit of a weakness overall for the team.

That's not to say that Jokic's playmaking isn't more valuable than Dirk's elite ball security. But I do think we have enough evidence that says an offense built around Dirk is going to lead to less turnovers and so we can mention it as an edge to Dirk.

If we can't, then basically what we are saying is Jokic is better overall so we don't want to look granularly. Which I think is a fair approach fwiw, but it goes against the idea of the thread so.....

[maxwellcu]

I think it’s pretty weird to say that someone with a 5xx TS almost every year of his career is a better shooter all over the court than Jokic.

Jokics unprecedented dominance from three to ten is well documented on these boards. Is that not “shooting”? It certainly isn’t dunks and layups.

[maxwellcu]

To follow on, before someone posts the rTS numbers that I haven’t checked, I’d really like to hear about why it’s appropriate to make those types of adjustments when comparing two players who didn’t play at all that far apart.

I don’t really see that the rules (or their practical interpretation) have fundamentally changed since Dirk exited his prime.

Jokic isn’t some passenger on a Steph Curry offense and he isn’t even some joker shooting 20 unearned free throws a game because Adam Silver said so. What’s the rationale for adjusting his stats in a comparison against a guy who played ten years ago? Players are just better and more efficient now than they were in Dirks era.

[NO-KG-AI]

To follow on, before someone posts the rTS numbers that I haven’t checked, I’d really like to hear about why it’s appropriate to make those types of adjustments when comparing two players who didn’t play at all that far apart.

I don’t really see that the rules (or their practical interpretation) have fundamentally changed since Dirk exited his prime.

Jokic isn’t some passenger on a Steph Curry offense and he isn’t even some joker shooting 20 unearned free throws a game because Adam Silver said so. What’s the rationale for adjusting his stats in a comparison against a guy who played ten years ago? Players are just better and more efficient now than they were in Dirks era.

Best practices have changed, and teams are more capable and willing to embrace the things they needed to in order to capitalize on some of these guys talent. Extra bonus for someone like Dirk, who was ahead of his time and is probably a big factor in why a lot of teams have embraced these concepts as well, he was huge in starting this shift in the front court and with spacing.

Not picking a side here, just food for thought.

[70sFan]

I think it’s pretty weird to say that someone with a 5xx TS almost every year of his career is a better shooter all over the court than Jokic.

Jokics unprecedented dominance from three to ten is well documented on these boards. Is that not “shooting”? It certainly isn’t dunks and layups.

Shooting inside the paint isn't usually considered as "shooting" in a broad, well established sense. Maybe that's wrong, but this is how it is viewed.

Jokic certainly crushes Dirk inside the paint, no doubt about it.

[70sFan]

To follow on, before someone posts the rTS numbers that I haven’t checked, I’d really like to hear about why it’s appropriate to make those types of adjustments when comparing two players who didn’t play at all that far apart.

I don’t really see that the rules (or their practical interpretation) have fundamentally changed since Dirk exited his prime.

Jokic isn’t some passenger on a Steph Curry offense and he isn’t even some joker shooting 20 unearned free throws a game because Adam Silver said so. What’s the rationale for adjusting his stats in a comparison against a guy who played ten years ago? Players are just better and more efficient now than they were in Dirks era.

Some rules changed though and refs use different interpretations now than back then. Strategical shift is also very important in cross-era comparisons.

It's not coincidence that LeBron has been more efficient as an 36-38 years old player than he was in 2009-12 period.

[maxwellcu]

To follow on, before someone posts the rTS numbers that I haven’t checked, I’d really like to hear about why it’s appropriate to make those types of adjustments when comparing two players who didn’t play at all that far apart.

I don’t really see that the rules (or their practical interpretation) have fundamentally changed since Dirk exited his prime.

Jokic isn’t some passenger on a Steph Curry offense and he isn’t even some joker shooting 20 unearned free throws a game because Adam Silver said so. What’s the rationale for adjusting his stats in a comparison against a guy who played ten years ago? Players are just better and more efficient now than they were in Dirks era.

Best practices have changed, and teams are more capable and willing to embrace the things they needed to in order to capitalize on some of these guys talent. Extra bonus for someone like Dirk, who was ahead of his time and is probably a big factor in why a lot of teams have embraced these concepts as well, he was huge in starting this shift in the front court and with spacing.

Not picking a side here, just food for thought.

Yeah, I didn’t mean to be confrontational or even rhetorical. Really more of a genuine question. I see why to adjust eg Jokic vs Chamberlain but less so why to adjust Jokic vs Dirk.

[maxwellcu]

The most uncontroversial argument I can see is that teammates are better in ways that open things up for stars.