NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[eyeatoma]

Perfect example of goal posts being moved.

On the RInger, Woz said he loves Jokic and said he's putting up video game stats. Said that he doesn't care about the 3 time MVP winner. If he deserves it, he deserves it. Then someone brought up Embiid being ignored, and Woz said Embiid has been great. The discussion then went to the playoffs and with Jokic having relatively low playoff success, and the precedent about winning the MVP 3 times and not even appearing in the finals, for a reason for why he shouldn't win the 3rd. Woz then said, this is when I'm putting my hypocrite hat on. Embiid needs to prove it in the playoffs.

The media is full of idiots like this who literally change the criteria for why a player deserves an MVP, fully realizing that they are using a different criteria for the competition.

This was from a Ringer pod about a month ago.

[Duke4life831]

You don't deserve the MVP for 6th seed. Especially when the competition played a career high in games.

Goal posts are always moved for Joker. If he wins this year he'll go down as the only 3 peat MVP winner who has not won a chip.



Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

But here's the thing. Even with Embiid playing a career high in games, Jokic still won more games. Embiid played in 45 wins last year. Jokic played in 46 wins. Does Embiid really get a huge boost because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic?

I mean you guys will find any stat to give a reason for why Jokic deserves it. Even it's one measly game.

Explain why Luka isn't the front runner right now, when he's put up godly career high stats, and has the Mavs in playoff contention. His roster is worse than the Nuggets this year. Jokic got that benefit last year, why doesn't Luka this year?

I mean ya its one game, but again where is the edge for Embiid over Jokic? You bring up seeding, but again Jokic played in more wins. So again do we expect to give Embiid a boost over Jokic last year because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic? If the answer is no, then what is the argument? Usually the team seeding and wins play a part, because most MVP winners of the past played like 78-82 games. So if there was a big win difference between two guys, that usually meant a big difference in the wins they played in. Wasnt the case last year.

Again Jokic won the MVP last year because he had as good of raw stats as anyone, he ran away with the advanced metrics and he won as many games as the other 2 MVP contenders (Embiid and Giannis).

What's the argument for Luka over Jokic this year? Raw stats Luka doesnt have the edge. Advanced stats, just like last year Jokic is running away with it. Luka also hasnt won as many games as Jokic.

[eyeatoma]

But here's the thing. Even with Embiid playing a career high in games, Jokic still won more games. Embiid played in 45 wins last year. Jokic played in 46 wins. Does Embiid really get a huge boost because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic?

I mean you guys will find any stat to give a reason for why Jokic deserves it. Even it's one measly game.

Explain why Luka isn't the front runner right now, when he's put up godly career high stats, and has the Mavs in playoff contention. His roster is worse than the Nuggets this year. Jokic got that benefit last year, why doesn't Luka this year?

I mean ya its one game, but again where is the edge for Embiid over Jokic? You bring up seeding, but again Jokic played in more wins. So again do we expect to give Embiid a boost over Jokic last year because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic? If the answer is no, then what is the argument? Usually the team seeding and wins play a part, because most MVP winners of the past played like 78-82 games. So if there was a big win difference between two guys, that usually meant a big difference in the wins they played in. Wasnt the case last year.

Again Jokic won the MVP last year because he had as good of raw stats as anyone, he ran away with the advanced metrics and he won as many games as the other 2 MVP contenders (Embiid and Giannis).

What's the argument for Luka over Jokic this year? Raw stats Luka doesnt have the edge. Advanced stats, just like last year Jokic is running away with it. Luka also hasnt won as many games as Jokic.

Boost over Jokic, is Embiid was the 1st center to lead the league in ppg since Shaq. He hasn't won one, and Jokic already had. He was pulling a huge carry job with no Simmons and Harden for the majority of the season. He played a career high in games.

This year the East is far deeper than the West. The Sixers only have 3 wins less than the Nuggets. So in that case shouldn't that be a plus for Embiid as he's got his team in 2nd in a harder East with only a few games separating the Nuggets and Sixers?

[eyeatoma]

But here's the thing. Even with Embiid playing a career high in games, Jokic still won more games. Embiid played in 45 wins last year. Jokic played in 46 wins. Does Embiid really get a huge boost because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic?

I mean you guys will find any stat to give a reason for why Jokic deserves it. Even it's one measly game.

Explain why Luka isn't the front runner right now, when he's put up godly career high stats, and has the Mavs in playoff contention. His roster is worse than the Nuggets this year. Jokic got that benefit last year, why doesn't Luka this year?

I mean ya its one game, but again where is the edge for Embiid over Jokic? You bring up seeding, but again Jokic played in more wins. So again do we expect to give Embiid a boost over Jokic last year because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic? If the answer is no, then what is the argument? Usually the team seeding and wins play a part, because most MVP winners of the past played like 78-82 games. So if there was a big win difference between two guys, that usually meant a big difference in the wins they played in. Wasnt the case last year.

Again Jokic won the MVP last year because he had as good of raw stats as anyone, he ran away with the advanced metrics and he won as many games as the other 2 MVP contenders (Embiid and Giannis).

What's the argument for Luka over Jokic this year? Raw stats Luka doesnt have the edge. Advanced stats, just like last year Jokic is running away with it. Luka also hasnt won as many games as Jokic.

Given that Luka is averaging over 6 points more than Jokic, only 3 assists less, I'd say the raw stats are pretty even. Luka has the Mavs better than the Nuggets at this point last year, I believe, could be wrong there. Also leading the league in points, and he's had some incredible MVP level games this season. Namely the 60 point performance.

[AleksandarN]

You don't deserve the MVP for 6th seed. Especially when the competition played a career high in games.

Goal posts are always moved for Joker. If he wins this year he'll go down as the only 3 peat MVP winner who has not won a chip.



Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

But here's the thing. Even with Embiid playing a career high in games, Jokic still won more games. Embiid played in 45 wins last year. Jokic played in 46 wins. Does Embiid really get a huge boost because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic?

I mean you guys will find any stat to give a reason for why Jokic deserves it. Even it's one measly game.

Explain why Luka isn't the front runner right now, when he's put up godly career high stats, and has the Mavs in playoff contention. His roster is worse than the Nuggets this year. Jokic got that benefit last year, why doesn't Luka this year?

Why because jokic is beating Luka in everything except points per game. Everything else Jokic leads. Same with Embiid. I don’t even need to list team records because that doesn’t matter. On court play is what matters and that is why Jokic is 1 st.

[Duke4life831]

I mean you guys will find any stat to give a reason for why Jokic deserves it. Even it's one measly game.

Explain why Luka isn't the front runner right now, when he's put up godly career high stats, and has the Mavs in playoff contention. His roster is worse than the Nuggets this year. Jokic got that benefit last year, why doesn't Luka this year?

I mean ya its one game, but again where is the edge for Embiid over Jokic? You bring up seeding, but again Jokic played in more wins. So again do we expect to give Embiid a boost over Jokic last year because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic? If the answer is no, then what is the argument? Usually the team seeding and wins play a part, because most MVP winners of the past played like 78-82 games. So if there was a big win difference between two guys, that usually meant a big difference in the wins they played in. Wasnt the case last year.

Again Jokic won the MVP last year because he had as good of raw stats as anyone, he ran away with the advanced metrics and he won as many games as the other 2 MVP contenders (Embiid and Giannis).

What's the argument for Luka over Jokic this year? Raw stats Luka doesnt have the edge. Advanced stats, just like last year Jokic is running away with it. Luka also hasnt won as many games as Jokic.

Boost over Jokic, is Embiid was the 1st center to lead the league in ppg since Shaq. He hasn't won one, and Jokic already had. He was pulling a huge carry job with no Simmons and Harden for the majority of the season. He played a career high in games.

This year the East is far deeper than the West. The Sixers only have 3 wins less than the Nuggets. So in that case shouldn't that be a plus for Embiid as he's got his team in 2nd in a harder East with only a few games separating the Nuggets and Sixers?

These are narratives, not actual arguments. Now I understand part of the award is narrative based, but again these are just narratives. Embiid being the scoring champion was a boost, but this is more than just scoring, Embiid got his scoring champion trophy. Him not winning one and Jokic has, again 100% narrative and not an actual argument on how Embiid was more valuable. Sure Embiid pulled a big carry job, but Jokic did as well (majority would say an even bigger one). And Embiid playing a career high in games means nothing, Jokic played more games. So just because Embiid has had a bad injury past, shouldnt mean anything at all. Again the award is supposed to focus just on that individual season.

When it comes to this year. Jokic has played in 8 more wins than Embiid. So even if we say the East is harder and that somehow makes up enough of a difference of 8 wins. Where else does Embiid have the edge? Raw stats? Nope. Outside of PPG, Jokic has him pretty easily. Advanced stats? Nope.

[AleksandarN]

I mean you guys will find any stat to give a reason for why Jokic deserves it. Even it's one measly game.

Explain why Luka isn't the front runner right now, when he's put up godly career high stats, and has the Mavs in playoff contention. His roster is worse than the Nuggets this year. Jokic got that benefit last year, why doesn't Luka this year?

I mean ya its one game, but again where is the edge for Embiid over Jokic? You bring up seeding, but again Jokic played in more wins. So again do we expect to give Embiid a boost over Jokic last year because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic? If the answer is no, then what is the argument? Usually the team seeding and wins play a part, because most MVP winners of the past played like 78-82 games. So if there was a big win difference between two guys, that usually meant a big difference in the wins they played in. Wasnt the case last year.

Again Jokic won the MVP last year because he had as good of raw stats as anyone, he ran away with the advanced metrics and he won as many games as the other 2 MVP contenders (Embiid and Giannis).

What's the argument for Luka over Jokic this year? Raw stats Luka doesnt have the edge. Advanced stats, just like last year Jokic is running away with it. Luka also hasnt won as many games as Jokic.

Given that Luka is averaging over 6 points more than Jokic, only 3 assists less, I'd say the raw stats are pretty even. Luka has the Mavs better than the Nuggets at this point last year, I believe, could be wrong there. Also leading the league in points, and he's had some incredible MVP level games this season. Namely the 60 point performance.

Oh really? Lol name those raw stats let’s see how even they are

[eyeatoma]

I mean ya its one game, but again where is the edge for Embiid over Jokic? You bring up seeding, but again Jokic played in more wins. So again do we expect to give Embiid a boost over Jokic last year because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic? If the answer is no, then what is the argument? Usually the team seeding and wins play a part, because most MVP winners of the past played like 78-82 games. So if there was a big win difference between two guys, that usually meant a big difference in the wins they played in. Wasnt the case last year.

Again Jokic won the MVP last year because he had as good of raw stats as anyone, he ran away with the advanced metrics and he won as many games as the other 2 MVP contenders (Embiid and Giannis).

What's the argument for Luka over Jokic this year? Raw stats Luka doesnt have the edge. Advanced stats, just like last year Jokic is running away with it. Luka also hasnt won as many games as Jokic.

Given that Luka is averaging over 6 points more than Jokic, only 3 assists less, I'd say the raw stats are pretty even. Luka has the Mavs better than the Nuggets at this point last year, I believe, could be wrong there. Also leading the league in points, and he's had some incredible MVP level games this season. Namely the 60 point performance.

Oh really? Lol name those raw stats let’s see how even they are

Points produced for the team seems pretty even based on the ppg difference between Luka and Jokic, as well as the assists he generates.

Same number of games, more 3s per game (pretty big actually), more steals per game. Equal number of blocks with Luka being far shorter.

[eyeatoma]

I mean ya its one game, but again where is the edge for Embiid over Jokic? You bring up seeding, but again Jokic played in more wins. So again do we expect to give Embiid a boost over Jokic last year because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic? If the answer is no, then what is the argument? Usually the team seeding and wins play a part, because most MVP winners of the past played like 78-82 games. So if there was a big win difference between two guys, that usually meant a big difference in the wins they played in. Wasnt the case last year.

Again Jokic won the MVP last year because he had as good of raw stats as anyone, he ran away with the advanced metrics and he won as many games as the other 2 MVP contenders (Embiid and Giannis).

What's the argument for Luka over Jokic this year? Raw stats Luka doesnt have the edge. Advanced stats, just like last year Jokic is running away with it. Luka also hasnt won as many games as Jokic.

Boost over Jokic, is Embiid was the 1st center to lead the league in ppg since Shaq. He hasn't won one, and Jokic already had. He was pulling a huge carry job with no Simmons and Harden for the majority of the season. He played a career high in games.

This year the East is far deeper than the West. The Sixers only have 3 wins less than the Nuggets. So in that case shouldn't that be a plus for Embiid as he's got his team in 2nd in a harder East with only a few games separating the Nuggets and Sixers?

These are narratives, not actual arguments. Now I understand part of the award is narrative based, but again these are just narratives. Embiid being the scoring champion was a boost, but this is more than just scoring, Embiid got his scoring champion trophy. Him not winning one and Jokic has, again 100% narrative and not an actual argument on how Embiid was more valuable. Sure Embiid pulled a big carry job, but Jokic did as well (majority would say an even bigger one). And Embiid playing a career high in games means nothing, Jokic played more games. So just because Embiid has had a bad injury past, shouldnt mean anything at all. Again the award is supposed to focus just on that individual season.

When it comes to this year. Jokic has played in 8 more wins than Embiid. So even if we say the East is harder and that somehow makes up enough of a difference of 8 wins. Where else does Embiid have the edge? Raw stats? Nope. Outside of PPG, Jokic has him pretty easily. Advanced stats? Nope.

Jokic was a big beneficiary of narrative last year.

Embiid has the edge on the 3rd best performance of the year behind Luka and Mitchell. At one point it was Embiid. Apart from PPG? Um, blocks? DPOY level defense. Once again we ignore defense, and how good he has the Sixers defensively.

[Duke4life831]

I mean you guys will find any stat to give a reason for why Jokic deserves it. Even it's one measly game.

Explain why Luka isn't the front runner right now, when he's put up godly career high stats, and has the Mavs in playoff contention. His roster is worse than the Nuggets this year. Jokic got that benefit last year, why doesn't Luka this year?

I mean ya its one game, but again where is the edge for Embiid over Jokic? You bring up seeding, but again Jokic played in more wins. So again do we expect to give Embiid a boost over Jokic last year because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic? If the answer is no, then what is the argument? Usually the team seeding and wins play a part, because most MVP winners of the past played like 78-82 games. So if there was a big win difference between two guys, that usually meant a big difference in the wins they played in. Wasnt the case last year.

Again Jokic won the MVP last year because he had as good of raw stats as anyone, he ran away with the advanced metrics and he won as many games as the other 2 MVP contenders (Embiid and Giannis).

What's the argument for Luka over Jokic this year? Raw stats Luka doesnt have the edge. Advanced stats, just like last year Jokic is running away with it. Luka also hasnt won as many games as Jokic.

Given that Luka is averaging over 6 points more than Jokic, only 3 assists less, I'd say the raw stats are pretty even. Luka has the Mavs better than the Nuggets at this point last year, I believe, could be wrong there. Also leading the league in points, and he's had some incredible MVP level games this season. Namely the 60 point performance.

But they arent even. Jokic is far more efficient but 9-10% (depending if you go off of eFG% or TS%). Jokic averages 3 more assists while averaging slightly less turnovers. And again comparing Mavs standing this year to Nuggets standing last year isnt an argument. Again the comparison for Jokic to the other guys last year was just that, comparing that individual season. Not comparing it to past Giannis seasons or something.

And I want to be clear, I agree Luka has looked like a MVP this season. He no doubt has hand MVP performances and moments. I wont argue that at all. Like Ive said multiple times, I think Embiid, Luka and Tatum all have put up legit MVP seasons this year. But even with that said, they havent had a better season than Jokic. None of them have actual arguments over Jokic. Again this is coming for a massive Duke homer who would love to see Tatum win the MVP. But there isnt a real argument for that at the moment.

[Duke4life831]

Boost over Jokic, is Embiid was the 1st center to lead the league in ppg since Shaq. He hasn't won one, and Jokic already had. He was pulling a huge carry job with no Simmons and Harden for the majority of the season. He played a career high in games.

This year the East is far deeper than the West. The Sixers only have 3 wins less than the Nuggets. So in that case shouldn't that be a plus for Embiid as he's got his team in 2nd in a harder East with only a few games separating the Nuggets and Sixers?

These are narratives, not actual arguments. Now I understand part of the award is narrative based, but again these are just narratives. Embiid being the scoring champion was a boost, but this is more than just scoring, Embiid got his scoring champion trophy. Him not winning one and Jokic has, again 100% narrative and not an actual argument on how Embiid was more valuable. Sure Embiid pulled a big carry job, but Jokic did as well (majority would say an even bigger one). And Embiid playing a career high in games means nothing, Jokic played more games. So just because Embiid has had a bad injury past, shouldnt mean anything at all. Again the award is supposed to focus just on that individual season.

When it comes to this year. Jokic has played in 8 more wins than Embiid. So even if we say the East is harder and that somehow makes up enough of a difference of 8 wins. Where else does Embiid have the edge? Raw stats? Nope. Outside of PPG, Jokic has him pretty easily. Advanced stats? Nope.

Jokic was a big beneficiary of narrative last year.

Yes he was. But he also had the statistics advantage as well. Again I completely agree narrative plays a part. Its pretty easy to make narrative arguments for any of the legit contenders. But again Jokic had the easy statistical advantage and that is what pushed him over everyone else last year.

[eyeatoma]

I mean ya its one game, but again where is the edge for Embiid over Jokic? You bring up seeding, but again Jokic played in more wins. So again do we expect to give Embiid a boost over Jokic last year because his team won more games without him than Denver did without Jokic? If the answer is no, then what is the argument? Usually the team seeding and wins play a part, because most MVP winners of the past played like 78-82 games. So if there was a big win difference between two guys, that usually meant a big difference in the wins they played in. Wasnt the case last year.

Again Jokic won the MVP last year because he had as good of raw stats as anyone, he ran away with the advanced metrics and he won as many games as the other 2 MVP contenders (Embiid and Giannis).

What's the argument for Luka over Jokic this year? Raw stats Luka doesnt have the edge. Advanced stats, just like last year Jokic is running away with it. Luka also hasnt won as many games as Jokic.

Given that Luka is averaging over 6 points more than Jokic, only 3 assists less, I'd say the raw stats are pretty even. Luka has the Mavs better than the Nuggets at this point last year, I believe, could be wrong there. Also leading the league in points, and he's had some incredible MVP level games this season. Namely the 60 point performance.

But they arent even. Jokic is far more efficient but 9-10% (depending if you go off of eFG% or TS%). Jokic averages 3 more assists while averaging slightly less turnovers. And again comparing Mavs standing this year to Nuggets standing last year isnt an argument. Again the comparison for Jokic to the other guys last year was just that, comparing that individual season. Not comparing it to past Giannis seasons or something.

And I want to be clear, I agree Luka has looked like a MVP this season. He no doubt has hand MVP performances and moments. I wont argue that at all. Like Ive said multiple times, I think Embiid, Luka and Tatum all have put up legit MVP seasons this year. But even with that said, they havent had a better season than Jokic. None of them have actual arguments over Jokic. Again this is coming for a massive Duke homer who would love to see Tatum win the MVP. But there isnt a real argument for that at the moment.

At some point playoff performance needs to come into play for Jokic. He could literally win every MVP every year, if you argue it that way.

They didn't even give it to LeBron that many times even though he was the best player of his generation and a top 2 player of all time.

This year, it's averaging a near triple double with career high in FG%. I just think the advanced stats need to lead to playoff success. I know you'll say not supposed to be a criteria, but as I mentioned there are literally media members who say Embiid needs to prove it in the playoffs where Jokic doesn't. This is on a huge platform like the Ringer, which also has some of the most media votes for the MVP.

[eyeatoma]

These are narratives, not actual arguments. Now I understand part of the award is narrative based, but again these are just narratives. Embiid being the scoring champion was a boost, but this is more than just scoring, Embiid got his scoring champion trophy. Him not winning one and Jokic has, again 100% narrative and not an actual argument on how Embiid was more valuable. Sure Embiid pulled a big carry job, but Jokic did as well (majority would say an even bigger one). And Embiid playing a career high in games means nothing, Jokic played more games. So just because Embiid has had a bad injury past, shouldnt mean anything at all. Again the award is supposed to focus just on that individual season.

When it comes to this year. Jokic has played in 8 more wins than Embiid. So even if we say the East is harder and that somehow makes up enough of a difference of 8 wins. Where else does Embiid have the edge? Raw stats? Nope. Outside of PPG, Jokic has him pretty easily. Advanced stats? Nope.

Jokic was a big beneficiary of narrative last year.

Yes he was. But he also had the statistics advantage as well. Again I completely agree narrative plays a part. Its pretty easy to make narrative arguments for any of the legit contenders. But again Jokic had the easy statistical advantage and that is what pushed him over everyone else last year.

Added some more about defense on my previous post. Any response?

Embiid has the edge on the 3rd best performance of the year behind Luka and Mitchell. At one point it was Embiid. Apart from PPG? Um, blocks? DPOY level defense. Once again we ignore defense, and how good he has the Sixers defensively.

[AleksandarN]

Given that Luka is averaging over 6 points more than Jokic, only 3 assists less, I'd say the raw stats are pretty even. Luka has the Mavs better than the Nuggets at this point last year, I believe, could be wrong there. Also leading the league in points, and he's had some incredible MVP level games this season. Namely the 60 point performance.

Oh really? Lol name those raw stats let’s see how even they are

Points produced for the team seems pretty even based on the ppg difference between Luka and Jokic, as well as the assists he generates.

Same number of games, more 3s per game (pretty big actually), more steals per game. Equal number of blocks with Luka being far shorter.

That’s all the raw stats? Lol because jokic leads in the majority of raw stats. It is not anywhere close to equal. Why do you have to lie or try deceive just to bring down Jokic? You can’t really hate him that much do you?

[eyeatoma]

Oh really? Lol name those raw stats let’s see how even they are

Points produced for the team seems pretty even based on the ppg difference between Luka and Jokic, as well as the assists he generates.

Same number of games, more 3s per game (pretty big actually), more steals per game. Equal number of blocks with Luka being far shorter.

That’s all the raw stats? Lol because jokic leads in the majority of raw stats. It is not anywhere close to equal. Why do you have to lie or try deceive just to bring down Jokic. You can’t really hate him that much do you?

What am I lying about?

I just told you the things he's better at. Raw stats are box score stats. Jokic has him on FG percentage, 3 point percentages, assist and rebounds.

Luka has him on PPG, SPG, equal on blocks, higher FTAs.

The question was which ones is he better at apart form PPG. I gave FACTS.

As I said I love him as a player and think he's a genius. Just think this advanced stats narrative has become a bit much over the last three years. It needs to lead to playoff success, and until it does, there will always been an asterisk in my mind.

If Jokic never wins a chip, and we look back 20 years from now, and see he's won MVP 3 years in a row, people will laugh and ask, wtf happened here.

[Duke4life831]

Jokic was a big beneficiary of narrative last year.

Yes he was. But he also had the statistics advantage as well. Again I completely agree narrative plays a part. Its pretty easy to make narrative arguments for any of the legit contenders. But again Jokic had the easy statistical advantage and that is what pushed him over everyone else last year.

Added some more about defense on my previous post. Any response?

Embiid has the edge on the 3rd best performance of the year behind Luka and Mitchell. At one point it was Embiid. Apart from PPG? Um, blocks? DPOY level defense. Once again we ignore defense, and how good he has the Sixers defensively.

People arent ignoring defense. People are including defense and Jokic still has the greater impact on the game.

[eyeatoma]

Yes he was. But he also had the statistics advantage as well. Again I completely agree narrative plays a part. Its pretty easy to make narrative arguments for any of the legit contenders. But again Jokic had the easy statistical advantage and that is what pushed him over everyone else last year.

Added some more about defense on my previous post. Any response?

Embiid has the edge on the 3rd best performance of the year behind Luka and Mitchell. At one point it was Embiid. Apart from PPG? Um, blocks? DPOY level defense. Once again we ignore defense, and how good he has the Sixers defensively.

People arent ignoring defense. People are including defense and Jokic still has the greater impact on the game.

Embiid's defensive impact is DPOY level. He is playing MVP level on offense, on par or better than Luka and Tatum, and very close to Jokic.

That itself should have Embiid in the lead. Embiid has more impact on his team defensively, than Jokic does on his team offensively. And that's saying something because Jokic is ridiculous, and Embiid is the 2nd highest scorer in the league.

It's pretty subjective to just say, oh yeah we're including defense, I still think Jokic?

Lol what?

[Duke4life831]

Given that Luka is averaging over 6 points more than Jokic, only 3 assists less, I'd say the raw stats are pretty even. Luka has the Mavs better than the Nuggets at this point last year, I believe, could be wrong there. Also leading the league in points, and he's had some incredible MVP level games this season. Namely the 60 point performance.

But they arent even. Jokic is far more efficient but 9-10% (depending if you go off of eFG% or TS%). Jokic averages 3 more assists while averaging slightly less turnovers. And again comparing Mavs standing this year to Nuggets standing last year isnt an argument. Again the comparison for Jokic to the other guys last year was just that, comparing that individual season. Not comparing it to past Giannis seasons or something.

And I want to be clear, I agree Luka has looked like a MVP this season. He no doubt has hand MVP performances and moments. I wont argue that at all. Like Ive said multiple times, I think Embiid, Luka and Tatum all have put up legit MVP seasons this year. But even with that said, they havent had a better season than Jokic. None of them have actual arguments over Jokic. Again this is coming for a massive Duke homer who would love to see Tatum win the MVP. But there isnt a real argument for that at the moment.

At some point playoff performance needs to come into play for Jokic. He could literally win every MVP every year, if you argue it that way.

They didn't even give it to LeBron that many times even though he was the best player of his generation and a top 2 player of all time.

This year, it's averaging a near triple double with career high in FG%. I just think the advanced stats need to lead to playoff success. I know you'll say not supposed to be a criteria, but as I mentioned there are literally media members who say Embiid needs to prove it in the playoffs where Jokic doesn't. This is on a huge platform like the Ringer, which also has some of the most media votes for the MVP.

No it doesnt.

Also the LeBron thing has been beaten to death by now. The only MVP LeBron didnt win but has an argument for is 2011. All the other ones he didnt win, he didnt have the best MVP argument that year. Not saying he wasnt the best player in the league, he no doubt was. But him coasting in the regular season, no doubt became a thing, even the biggest LeBron fans would acknowledge this. Year after year after year of deep playoff runs, LeBron clearly coasted for big chunks of the seasons to stay ready for the playoffs.

And again I dont really care if someone has a bad take midway through the season. Hell no doubt there will be some bad votes for all the awards, there are every year. But that doesnt change anything.

[Duke4life831]

Added some more about defense on my previous post. Any response?

People arent ignoring defense. People are including defense and Jokic still has the greater impact on the game.

Embiid's defensive impact is DPOY level. He is playing MVP level on offense, on par or better than Luka and Tatum, and very close to Jokic.

That itself should have Embiid in the lead. Embiid has more impact on his team defensively, than Jokic does on his team offensively. And that's saying something because Jokic is ridiculous, and Embiid is the 2nd highest scorer in the league.

It's pretty subjective to just say, oh yeah we're including defense, I still think Jokic?

Lol what?

Dude Im tapping out. You and I just had a page and a half of ruining this thread and shouldve taken it to PMs awhile back. And that is my bad, but ya done ruining this thread for now haha. Sorry for everyone else, Im sure people will click on this thread and see this back and forth and roll their eyes. Again my bad haha.

[eyeatoma]

People arent ignoring defense. People are including defense and Jokic still has the greater impact on the game.

Embiid's defensive impact is DPOY level. He is playing MVP level on offense, on par or better than Luka and Tatum, and very close to Jokic.

That itself should have Embiid in the lead. Embiid has more impact on his team defensively, than Jokic does on his team offensively. And that's saying something because Jokic is ridiculous, and Embiid is the 2nd highest scorer in the league.

It's pretty subjective to just say, oh yeah we're including defense, I still think Jokic?

Lol what?

Dude Im tapping out. You and I just had a page and a half of ruining this thread and shouldve taken it to PMs awhile back. And that is my bad, but ya done ruining this thread for now haha.

Okay brother, just don't feel you were really clear on why we value offense more than defense, when it's literally half the game.