How far does Jokic have to take the Nuggets this season?

[dockingsched]

You hold him to the standard by how he plays not by the standards of how far the team goes

As amazing as this would be, this would make Jokic the only superstar held to such a fragile standard.

[Whopper_Sr]

WCF at minimum. Finals loss would obviously be soul crushing. Not expecting a chip but fingers crossed..

[Raps in 4]

Ideally, to the finals.

The West isn't particularly strong, so it's possible, but I'm also not a believer in the Nuggets' roster.

[Duke4life831]

I mean he is already the best player in the world. Really the only guy in the conversation with him is Giannis and I dont think Giannis has the same consistency that Jokic has.

I have a tough time saying this about anyone that hasn't exploded in the postseason given how different the game is played/officiated in the postseason. He hasn't had some huge post season drop off, but he still has never hard carried a team like say Steve Nash did with the SSOL Suns taking them to the WCF twice, once with an absurdly weak squad (the year Amare was out).

I don't require rings but I think just asking him to make it to the 2nd round is a low bar for "best player". At some point post season success has to matter in terms of overall value. If his team is healthy, they need to make the WCF in my book. Beating a 7th or 8th seed as a top seeded squad won't be enough for me. It's not like he has a weak team, his squad is #1 in the West and has the 2nd best win percentage in the league right now.

Stuff happens, like say if his teammates all completely fail him... I'll look at the whole picture and leave him in the top tier of players, but *the best*, at least to me (and we all have different criteria) includes being able to take a #1/#2 team to the Conference Finals as a true carry. He's made it to the CF once with Murray, but that included Murray carrying just as much as he did and Davis had the better series. I'm not saying he can't do it, but I need to see it for him to be the #1 guy in the league like LeBron, Steph, Giannis all have.

At the same time, this could be *his* year where he puts it all together with an ATG performance and a chip.

But Jokic has been elite in the playoffs though. His career playoff averages are 26/11/6 on 52/39/84 shooting. Jokic has led the playoffs in PER 2 out of the 4 times he has gone. And lets not forget, the one time he played with someone who played like a legit #2 option, he made the WCF. Again unlike last year, I dont think there is any excuse for him not to get out of the 2nd round. Even if Murray and MPJ stink it up, their presence alone out there should be enough where Jokic has enough space to drag that team to the next round.

But say they make it to the 2nd round and they face the Pelicans (current 4th seed). Zion and BI are healthy and they do their thing. Zion drops 29/7/5 on elite efficiency and BI repeats his playoff performance of last year of 27/6/6 on 47/40/83 shooting. And Jokic does his thing but no one else shows up. Are we really going to put that as a negative for Jokic? Again to be clear if his team shows up to just the level they're playing at right now, then ya I will say its a negative. But if he goes up against a team with legit 2 All NBA level players and 3-4 all star level players (like that Pels team when healthy) and Jokic doesnt get legit help, it would just be hard to have that be a knock against him.

I think Dirk and KG are great examples to look back on with this. MVP players who are top 15-25 all time. Dirk never really had that true #2. And when his surrounding team was solid in the playoffs, they usually had solid runs. When they didnt, they would flame out. Same thing with KG. Never really got much help in the playoffs in Minny. Then that final year Sprewell and Cassell provided legit help and they made it to the WCF. Then he goes to Boston with legit help and KG making deep runs in the playoffs was the norm.

[DonaldSanders]

But Jokic has been elite in the playoffs though. His career playoff averages are 26/11/6 on 52/39/84 shooting. Jokic has led the playoffs in PER 2 out of the 4 times he has gone. And lets not forget, the one time he played with someone who played like a legit #2 option, he made the WCF. Again unlike last year, I dont think there is any excuse for him not to get out of the 2nd round. Even if Murray and MPJ stink it up, their presence alone out there should be enough where Jokic has enough space to drag that team to the next round.

But say they make it to the 2nd round and they face the Pelicans (current 4th seed). Zion and BI are healthy and they do their thing. Zion drops 29/7/5 on elite efficiency and BI repeats his playoff performance of last year of 27/6/6 on 47/40/83 shooting. And Jokic does his thing but no one else shows up. Are we really going to put that as a negative for Jokic? Again to be clear if his team shows up to just the level they're playing at right now, then ya I will say its a negative. But if he goes up against a team with legit 2 All NBA level players and 3-4 all star level players (like that Pels team when healthy) and Jokic doesnt get legit help, it would just be hard to have that be a knock against him.

I think Dirk and KG are great examples to look back on with this. MVP players who are top 15-25 all time. Dirk never really had that true #2. And when his surrounding team was solid in the playoffs, they usually had solid runs. When they didnt, they would flame out. Same thing with KG. Never really got much help in the playoffs in Minny. Then that final year Sprewell and Cassell provided legit help and they made it to the WCF. Then he goes to Boston with legit help and KG making deep runs in the playoffs was the norm.

Good and fair response, it's logic that is all reasonable. My disagreement comes from:

1) If his teammates aren't playing well, some of that may have to fall on him unless they're straight up whiffing wide open shots over and over. Part of the value of a top guy is how much better he makes his teammates/team.

2) The #1 player is a higher, special bar. It means at some point you pull off a hulk carry. I'm looking at his body of work, and at some point I will need to see a hulk carry that propels a team further than they "deserve" just like many ATGs have done.

3) It's not totally fair, but there is a heightened pressure component as you go further in the playoffs -- if we don't get to see him perform in these scenarios, it's a bit of an "incomplete" on his score card, we don't know how good he will be in a big WCF or Finals game.

Adding all these 3 together mean for me that him not making it to the WCF will keep him out of the #1 spot. I mean it's possible under the right circumstances, but for me it's unlikely I'd have him as the #1 guy. But I'm not kicking him out of the top 3 or anything crazy.

[jazzfan1971]

I think anything less than making the finals would be a big disappointment.

[Duke4life831]

But Jokic has been elite in the playoffs though. His career playoff averages are 26/11/6 on 52/39/84 shooting. Jokic has led the playoffs in PER 2 out of the 4 times he has gone. And lets not forget, the one time he played with someone who played like a legit #2 option, he made the WCF. Again unlike last year, I dont think there is any excuse for him not to get out of the 2nd round. Even if Murray and MPJ stink it up, their presence alone out there should be enough where Jokic has enough space to drag that team to the next round.

But say they make it to the 2nd round and they face the Pelicans (current 4th seed). Zion and BI are healthy and they do their thing. Zion drops 29/7/5 on elite efficiency and BI repeats his playoff performance of last year of 27/6/6 on 47/40/83 shooting. And Jokic does his thing but no one else shows up. Are we really going to put that as a negative for Jokic? Again to be clear if his team shows up to just the level they're playing at right now, then ya I will say its a negative. But if he goes up against a team with legit 2 All NBA level players and 3-4 all star level players (like that Pels team when healthy) and Jokic doesnt get legit help, it would just be hard to have that be a knock against him.

I think Dirk and KG are great examples to look back on with this. MVP players who are top 15-25 all time. Dirk never really had that true #2. And when his surrounding team was solid in the playoffs, they usually had solid runs. When they didnt, they would flame out. Same thing with KG. Never really got much help in the playoffs in Minny. Then that final year Sprewell and Cassell provided legit help and they made it to the WCF. Then he goes to Boston with legit help and KG making deep runs in the playoffs was the norm.

Good and fair response, it's logic that is all reasonable. My disagreement comes from:

1) If his teammates aren't playing well, some of that may have to fall on him unless they're straight up whiffing wide open shots over and over. Part of the value of a top guy is how much better he makes his teammates/team.

2) The #1 player is a higher, special bar. It means at some point you pull off a hulk carry. I'm looking at his body of work, and at some point I will need to see a hulk carry that propels a team further than they "deserve" just like many ATGs have done.

3) It's not totally fair, but there is a heightened pressure component as you go further in the playoffs -- if we don't get to see him perform in these scenarios, it's a bit of an "incomplete" on his score card, we don't know how good he will be in a big WCF or Finals game.

Adding all these 3 together mean for me that him not making it to the WCF will keep him out of the #1 spot. I mean it's possible under the right circumstances, but for me it's unlikely I'd have him as the #1 guy. But I'm not kicking him out of the top 3 or anything crazy.

I dont really disagree with any of this. But Ill say with

#1, I have a hard time ever seeing this be an issue with Jokic. He is kind of the ultimate floor raiser for his team. If his teammates fail, it usually means they arent taking advantage of their easy opportunities. This is one of the reasons why Jokic is Jokic.

#2, I agree with this, but this usually has more to do with long term legacy than short term who is the best player. What I mean by this is, Dirk winning in 2011 or KG finally winning with Boston, didnt push them to being the best player. It help solidify their all time legacies though. Dirk was already Dirk and KG was already KG by the time they made their runs. And now most of the hot takes about those guys not being able to get it done in the playoffs look dumb. Because its clear as day they were easily good enough, they just didnt get the help and the second they got any legit help, they made runs. Now do I think Jokic will be held to the same dumb standard? Yup. But I also want to be clear that I dont think its a dumb standard just for Jokic, I think this talking point has always been dumb. People sure do seem to forget that its a team game (especially in the playoffs) when they talk like that.

#3, ya I agree with this. But again I think this is more like all time legacy. Not right now, who is the best in the game currently.

Again I just think its dumb that someone can drop 31/13/6 on 64 TS% in the playoffs. But his next best player is Monte Morris putting up 14/2/5 and his 3rd guy is Will Barton putting up 14/5/3. Sorry that wasnt good enough to beat Steph Curry and the eventual champs in the 1st round. So that is now a negative for Jokic.

And to repeat myself, if his teammates just play solid (around the level they currently are), he does need to get this team out of the West. I also understand even if his teammates crap the bed and they get bounced in the 2nd round, the media talking point will be he cant get it done in the playoffs. Im just saying i personally think and always have thought that is a very dumb media talking point.

[shi-woo]

Unfortunate, but I feel like Nikola is going to get that Dirk treatment, as in being an ATG that is so good he drags a bag of okay players as far as he can, and people will continuously get disappointed when his teams lose to teams with more Top End talent.

Jokic being an MVP shouldn't matter, in he same way no one cared that LBJ didn't win jack until he teamed up with Wade and Bosh.

The Nuggests are a talented team, I really like the way their GM has built them up over the years, but lets be honest guys. MPJ and Murray are not even remotely close to the likes of:

Jrue/Middleton
AD
Pascal/Lowry
KD/Steph/Green/Thompson
Kyrie/Love
Kawhii/Parker/Manu
Wade/Bosh
Kidd/Chandler
Pau/Bynum
KG/Allan
Shaq
Rip/Sheed/Wallace
Kobe

Those are the #2 and #3 players on (essentially) the last 24 title teams...

The only roster that even comes remotely close to what the Nuggets have right now is the 2011 Mavs and there is a reason why that team and Dirk is the most cherished title by the majority of modern day NBA fans. The other teams that relied on depth like the Nuggets, also happened to have another All-NBA player and future first ballot HoF on it (Kobe, Shaq, and AD)

Jokic has none of that. The only player on the Nuggets that has even come close to an ASG is Aaron Gordon in the Dunk comp. DeAndre Jordan is his most decorated team mate Even the 2011 MAvs had like 6 former All-Stars and a slew of players that were some of the best of the generation priot (Marion, Kidd, Tyson, Peja, Terry).

Anyone saying Title or Bust is delusional. Jokic is an ATG, just enjoy the games and if he can upset any of the teams with Topend Talent, just enjoy it. He won't meet those teams till the 2nd round, so we'll see what he can do.

[JasonStern]

Voted Western Conference Finals. But I suppose it's more if Denver doesn't win a 'chip, what team did they lose to? I wouldn't hold losing to the Eastern conference winner, an impressive Memphis team, or a potentially healthy Clippers/Warriors team against Jokic. But if they lose to a Blazers, Kings, Lakers, Mavericks, Pelicans, Jazz, Timberwolves, Thunder, Suns, etc. - that's definitely a bad look.

[kuclas]

The real question is can a center lead a team to an nba title

The last real center to win an nba title (and I don’t count Tim Duncan as a real center) was probably Hakeem. You could say shaq but Kobe always had the ball down the stretch and they had to pull shaq off the floor at many key stretches due to poor free throw shooting.

So if Jokic cannot advance at least to the conference finals. It becomes a huge problem for center lead teams. Frankly without Murray help in 2020. Jokic probably be scapegoat into the same embiid category not even getting pass the second round.

So Jokic with his amazing play. If he or all people can’t lead a team to that wcf. It just shows you the nba playoffs relies more on elite wing play than center play. Which is Embiid averaging 30-10 gets swept in first round by Boston in 2020. And Jokic almost get swept 4-1 by golden state despite averaging 31/13/5. Elite center play without elite wings generally no playoff success.

[Statlanta]

Win MVP- Make the Finals
Lose MVP- WCF Game 6.

[picc]

Jokic has proven himself offensively.

The only hurdle left for him to clear is to prove he can be championship team level defensive player in this era, where defensive liabilities are magnified x10.

That doesn't mean being Kevin Garnett. It just means proving his defense will not be debilitating factor to any team trying to win a title.

There's a lot riding on that, tbh. Its going to be the difference in the all-time lists between him being an all-time great with a fatal flaw, or a potential "best player ever" candidate.

[Wigginstime]

With gsw struggling, I don’t really see what the excuse would be if they don’t at least make the finals.

At some point he should start to be held to the same standard that every elite player has been held to and criticized for not meeting. Jokic seems to be the only player, at this elite of a level, to never get held to that same standard that other guys get killed for.

Its hard to argue that Jokic hasn't been held to the same standard as every other superstar.

In 2020 he made the WCF and played elite
In 2021 he made the 2nd round, became the third player to put up 30/20/10 along with Wilt and Kareem despite the Nuggets missing 5 rotational guys and being so desperate the signed Austin Rivers at the last minute. They were missing Murray, Barton, and MJP was inured.
In 2022 he made the playoffs despite injuries to Murray and MPJ being out for most of the season.

Jokic did a better job carrying an injury depleted Nuggets team in 2021 and 2022 than Curry did the Warriors in 2021 for example. As long as he puts up elite stats and wins, its hard to blame Jokic when the losses are almost entirely based on his entire team putting up terrible stats.

[bstein14]

I like his supporting cast better than what Luka has, but its close. If he had a 2nd best player that was at a Siakam, Brown, Harden, George, Middleton(healthy) type level they'd be the best team in the league and championship favorites IMO.

[Lockdown504090]

i just wanna see if they can defend against a great offense and win a series when teams scheme to exploit the weaknesses he has. he can lose in the first round and if he can defend the basket and play drop coverage without just relying on his hands hell ill have him in my top 20 all time.

I dont see why what round the nuggets lose in matters.

[BelgradeNugget]

The real question is can a center lead a team to an nba title

The last real center to win an nba title (and I don’t count Tim Duncan as a real center) was probably Hakeem. You could say shaq but Kobe always had the ball down the stretch and they had to pull shaq off the floor at many key stretches due to poor free throw shooting.

So if Jokic cannot advance at least to the conference finals. It becomes a huge problem for center lead teams. Frankly without Murray help in 2020. Jokic probably be scapegoat into the same embiid category not even getting pass the second round.

So Jokic with his amazing play. If he or all people can’t lead a team to that wcf. It just shows you the nba playoffs relies more on elite wing play than center play. Which is Embiid averaging 30-10 gets swept in first round by Boston in 2020. And Jokic almost get swept 4-1 by golden state despite averaging 31/13/5. Elite center play without elite wings generally no playoff success.

And nobody can say a word against Embiid in that POs because he did all he could. Didn't disappoint. For him all other POs are questionable. Hope this year he is mature enough and healthy enough to play on his level in POs.

[Exp0sed]

You hold him to the standard by how he plays not by the standards of how far the team goes

As amazing as this would be, this would make Jokic the only superstar held to such a fragile standard.

not speaking about this season but prior seasons:
which past "superstars" played without a single all-star (not to mention last season's G-league roster) and were held to this finals or bust standard?

The Nuggets have some nice complmentary pieces and they're playing as a team this season
his cast and co-stars aren't on par with some of the other superstars in the league but with him playing at the level he is playing - that should be enough to get the Nuggets to the finals

i'd be shocked if they don't make it to the WCF and if they're healthy and don't make it - this season would be a failure

I think the Grizz are gonna be a real problem for them, they should really keep the pressure on to finish with the top seed
They are much more formidable at home and HCA is likely to be a deciding factor in a WCF series between the two, if such a series would come to pass

[Exp0sed]

The real question is can a center lead a team to an nba title

The last real center to win an nba title (and I don’t count Tim Duncan as a real center) was probably Hakeem. You could say shaq but Kobe always had the ball down the stretch and they had to pull shaq off the floor at many key stretches due to poor free throw shooting.

So if Jokic cannot advance at least to the conference finals. It becomes a huge problem for center lead teams. Frankly without Murray help in 2020. Jokic probably be scapegoat into the same embiid category not even getting pass the second round.

So Jokic with his amazing play. If he or all people can’t lead a team to that wcf. It just shows you the nba playoffs relies more on elite wing play than center play. Which is Embiid averaging 30-10 gets swept in first round by Boston in 2020. And Jokic almost get swept 4-1 by golden state despite averaging 31/13/5. Elite center play without elite wings generally no playoff success.

when was the last time the best player in the NBA was a Center?
Giannis is a PF
if we look at MVP as some kind of indication on whose the best player (not synonmous obviously,but for simplicity's sake)
we have to back as far as Shaq's 1999 MVP to find an MVP whose a Center

not to mention, even if some innate stretegic advantage exist, i mean that there is a cap on your ceiling if your best player is a Center, that probably wouldn't apply to the Joker as he is the primary facilitator as well - which is something we have basically never seen before from the Center position

so maybe typical Centers can't get it done but that wouldn't apply to Jokic?

let's put it this way, if u had 9 more Jokic's rn i.e - Centers who can punish smaller players inside and on the glass while also handling the ball, running the break and are very effective at being the primary playmaker - the teams that employ them would be battling each other for the 'chip, same way the Centers of past eras battled each other for 'chips

Jokic is a true unicorn, all that "can't win a 'chip when ur best player is a Center" doesn't apply to him

[AdagioPace]

finally the Nuggets are coming out as an ensable even without him (of course the ceiling w/o him is different). I'll cheer for them in the PS.
MVP + title would be amazing for the franchise

[Inspektor1312]

If the team stays healthy, anything less than a WCF would be a disappointment to me. A lot can change between now and the playoffs tho, so I think this is a discussion for the end of the regular season.