If someone is low on longevity, and high on playoff performance, how does their GOAT list change?

[youngcrev]

Don't know if you've been around here often because I can't say I remember you but click on any thread mentioning MJ and at least half the people there are arguing he shouldn't be seen as the GOAT because he doesn't have jawdropping +- and lacking longevity.

I don't know that I've ever seen someone actually put up their rankings with any level of sincerity and not have him in the top-2, and I'd say the majority of people on here (that aren't just trolling) have him as the GOAT. I think for a certain generation of people he'll always be the GOAT, while some of the younger people that didn't grow up in that era might go Lebron.

But you can pretty safely write off anyone that says that don't consider him a legit candidate.

I don't have Jordan in my top 2 for years, am I a troll?

Exception to the rule?

Where do you have him and do you have him as a viable candidate?

I'm not saying that it's not possible to rank outside of that range, but I'd say the majority of people making that case are doing so just to prop up their guy.

[Dutchball97]

Wait, what? No it's not.

Don't know if you've been around here often because I can't say I remember you but click on any thread mentioning MJ and at least half the people there are arguing he shouldn't be seen as the GOAT because he doesn't have jawdropping +- and lacking longevity.

Not being considered a clear GOAT and not being considered a GOAT candidate are two different things though. Jordan is still seen as the GOAT candidate here.

I don't know man. Just about every time it comes up I have MJ as my GOAT I get brigaded by people asking for entire essays. The overcorrection on this board to casuals still having MJ as the undisputed GOAT is pretty bad. Some people "graciously" keep Jordan at the bottom of their GOAT tier but the moment someone actually mentions MJ as the GOAT, they attack them.

[AEnigma]

^Maybe that is what happens when you coast on reputation rather than ever being expected to be able to defend or justify perceptions of this nefarious “overcorrection”.

Anyway, I already primarily restrict my focus to the postseason — although people seem to have a general habit of overstating elevations and falls from the regular either way (probably because of an abdication of analysis of what players are actually doing on the court against relevant competition) — so really it just comes down to longevity shifts. Which affects Kareem, Duncan, Garnett… and then consequently everyone around them gets a comparative boost. But it does not actually change the guys at the top for me that much, because Lebron, Russell, and Kareem still have the best thirteen-year stretches and can generally maintain that as you shift down. And then the second you hit eleven or ten seasons then I think Duncan and Garnett re-enter the conversation. I have said it before, but people habitually overstate the differences in ten-year primes because of some aesthetic sense. For me, a guys like Bird or West needed longevity just to stay competitive, and not to give any real cumulative advantage.

Or to put it another way…

when a player has 4-5 seasons above the best season of another player, then longevity becomes pretty much an afterthought

It is extra credit for Kareem, Duncan, and Garnett, but ultimately it is not all that necessary for the ranges of where I place them.

[Dutchball97]

^Maybe that is what happens when you coast on reputation rather than ever being expected to be able to defend or justify perceptions of this nefarious “overcorrection”

Just for the record I wasn't trying to single you out. There are multiple regular posters who no longer see MJ as the GOAT (or never did) and are tired of the constant "MJ is the undisputed GOAT and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know basketball" talk you get on things like youtube, twitter, mainstream broadcasts and sometimes even this forum. Can't say I blame these posters for getting sick of it either but it's hard to deny that it makes some people more eager to jump at pro-MJ takes.

[AEnigma]

Perhaps. In this specific forum branch though I do not think a higher standard of explanation is especially unreasonable to ask.

Thinking about the question more, “disregarding longevity” is quite an open frame. I suggested 13 years because only Kareem and Lebron have conceivable primes clearly exceeding that (1970-83+ and anything added on either side of 2009-21, respectively), but that framing itself advantages some players over others. Russell, for example, I think is best suited for 13 years or 11 years; not saying he fares poorly in other frames, but those are the two where he has the strongest advantage. Magic is best at 12 years. Wilt has a nice and rare 14-year career where he was a top three to five player the entire time. Someone like Duncan is best with 2/3/7 before we start getting into that true 15+ year twilight longevity. Kareem probably is best with 4 or anything 10+. Bird fares best with 9, although again, I do not think he clearly outpaces others there either. Hakeem has 2, 3, or 10-12. Jordan has 3/4/6, or maybe “10 best no order”. Lebron I think is at his comparative strongest with 2 or 5+, and on that note, a lot of us are frustrated with this arbitrary 3-year framing becoming normalised for seemingly no reason but because of how it makes for the most convenient means to try to comparatively downgrade Lebron (and Kareem).

So while it maybe makes some sense to just cap at 13 years, it does come across as trying to undermine those rare few who were immensely productive outside that period. 12 makes sense too, as does 11, as does 10, as does 9 (if you really like Bird lol), but ultimately when you try to use selective frames like that, everyone can see the intent behind it. Because while I may think the frames ultimately do not matter that much, and players tend to maintain their level of play at a pretty consistent rate despite what some seasonal fluctuations might otherwise suggest, a lot of people are more willing to fixate onto specific averages and equate that with real ability, and in that reality the choice of years can have disproportionate effects on public assessment.

[Dutchball97]

Definitely not unreasonable to ask but imo also not unreasonable to not go too in depth with the answer because you already know the person asking isn't going to like your approach.

I don't think an arbitrary cap of years where everything in it matters and everything outside it doesn't is the best way to deal with longevity. A cumulative value approach is valid because it counts up all someone did without leaving anything out but I do think it's also important to take the value per season into account. The reason I generally look for 4-5 seasons of prime level play is mostly because at that point you know they didn't just have an outlier peak year where everything went their way but that they can consistently reach a certain level. For discussions at the top of the rankings I still take a descending importance approach but since level of peak play is much closer than beyond the 20-30s there aren't many situations like Wade vs Stockton in the top 20. The best season is the most important, followed by the 2nd best, then the 3rd etc. With this method I get a pretty clear top 4 of Russell, Kareem, MJ and LeBron. I'd say nobody else comes particularly close to having about a decade of top of the league level seasons. I see it as MJ and Russell being the most consistently dominant in their primes with LeBron and Kareem close enough for their extra longevity to give them an argument.

[Jaqua92]

I think longevity is the weakest part of GOAT criteria.

How good were you at your best and how did that translate to winning at the highest level? What did you accomplish when you are at your best?

For me, my breakfast has more weight than longevity. A players post prime only moves the needle if they win a championship. (LeBron, Curry).

My top 10.

1. MJ

2. LeBron

3. Kareem


4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird (l can't believe ANYONE has him 10-15, or 8-10)
7. Wilt
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

11. Kobe
12. Steph
13. KD
14. Garnett

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[falcolombardi]

Don't know if you've been around here often because I can't say I remember you but click on any thread mentioning MJ and at least half the people there are arguing he shouldn't be seen as the GOAT because he doesn't have jawdropping +- and lacking longevity.

Not being considered a clear GOAT and not being considered a GOAT candidate are two different things though. Jordan is still seen as the GOAT candidate here.

I don't know man. Just about every time it comes up I have MJ as my GOAT I get brigaded by people asking for entire essays. The overcorrection on this board to casuals still having MJ as the undisputed GOAT is pretty bad. Some people "graciously" keep Jordan at the bottom of their GOAT tier but the moment someone actually mentions MJ as the GOAT, they attack them.

attacking arguments isn't the same as attacking posters

[Dutchball97]

Not being considered a clear GOAT and not being considered a GOAT candidate are two different things though. Jordan is still seen as the GOAT candidate here.

I don't know man. Just about every time it comes up I have MJ as my GOAT I get brigaded by people asking for entire essays. The overcorrection on this board to casuals still having MJ as the undisputed GOAT is pretty bad. Some people "graciously" keep Jordan at the bottom of their GOAT tier but the moment someone actually mentions MJ as the GOAT, they attack them.

attacking arguments isn't the same as attacking posters

That's correct but both happened.

[70sFan]

Don't know if you've been around here often because I can't say I remember you but click on any thread mentioning MJ and at least half the people there are arguing he shouldn't be seen as the GOAT because he doesn't have jawdropping +- and lacking longevity.

Not being considered a clear GOAT and not being considered a GOAT candidate are two different things though. Jordan is still seen as the GOAT candidate here.

I don't know man. Just about every time it comes up I have MJ as my GOAT I get brigaded by people asking for entire essays. The overcorrection on this board to casuals still having MJ as the undisputed GOAT is pretty bad. Some people "graciously" keep Jordan at the bottom of their GOAT tier but the moment someone actually mentions MJ as the GOAT, they attack them.

As I said, you can always ignore some posters that you find too offensive or without constructive criticism

[70sFan]

I don't know that I've ever seen someone actually put up their rankings with any level of sincerity and not have him in the top-2, and I'd say the majority of people on here (that aren't just trolling) have him as the GOAT. I think for a certain generation of people he'll always be the GOAT, while some of the younger people that didn't grow up in that era might go Lebron.

But you can pretty safely write off anyone that says that don't consider him a legit candidate.

I don't have Jordan in my top 2 for years, am I a troll?

Exception to the rule?

Where do you have him and do you have him as a viable candidate?

I'm not saying that it's not possible to rank outside of that range, but I'd say the majority of people making that case are doing so just to prop up their guy.

I have him 4th and yes, he's among GOAT candidates to me (though with weakest case).

[youngcrev]

I don't have Jordan in my top 2 for years, am I a troll?

Exception to the rule?

Where do you have him and do you have him as a viable candidate?

I'm not saying that it's not possible to rank outside of that range, but I'd say the majority of people making that case are doing so just to prop up their guy.

I have him 4th and yes, he's among GOAT candidates to me (though with weakest case).

Wilt, KAJ, Lebron?

[70sFan]

Exception to the rule?

Where do you have him and do you have him as a viable candidate?

I'm not saying that it's not possible to rank outside of that range, but I'd say the majority of people making that case are doing so just to prop up their guy.

I have him 4th and yes, he's among GOAT candidates to me (though with weakest case).

Wilt, KAJ, Lebron?

Russell, Kareem, LeBron (chronological order).

[MyUniBroDavis]

I don't know that I've ever seen someone actually put up their rankings with any level of sincerity and not have him in the top-2, and I'd say the majority of people on here (that aren't just trolling) have him as the GOAT. I think for a certain generation of people he'll always be the GOAT, while some of the younger people that didn't grow up in that era might go Lebron.

But you can pretty safely write off anyone that says that don't consider him a legit candidate.

I don't have Jordan in my top 2 for years, am I a troll?

Exception to the rule?

Where do you have him and do you have him as a viable candidate?

I'm not saying that it's not possible to rank outside of that range, but I'd say the majority of people making that case are doing so just to prop up their guy.

The majority of people here do not have Jordan as the GOAT, considering lebron was voted as GOAT in the last top 100 project

Most people view jordan as having the GOAT peak on the forum, although I think bron did personally.

[70sFan]

I don't have Jordan in my top 2 for years, am I a troll?

Exception to the rule?

Where do you have him and do you have him as a viable candidate?

I'm not saying that it's not possible to rank outside of that range, but I'd say the majority of people making that case are doing so just to prop up their guy.

The majority of people here do not have Jordan as the GOAT, considering lebron was voted as GOAT in the last top 100 project

Most people view jordan as having the GOAT peak on the forum, although I think bron did personally.

Jordan won the other projects though, I think it's tough to really say who's the majority of PC Board GOAT.

[Kingdibs19]

Surprised OP didn’t mention Bird and Kawhi. First 2 to pop in my mind.

[youngcrev]

I have him 4th and yes, he's among GOAT candidates to me (though with weakest case).

Wilt, KAJ, Lebron?

Russell, Kareem, LeBron (chronological order).

Which is fine. Comparing players across eras gets sketchy, even with ways to normalize statistics (and stats aren't everything regardless) and we're talking about a mostly subjective title.

My point wasn't that anyone not choosing him as the GOAT is trolling, but that there's likely a lot of that going on if he's getting push back on Jordan being the choice.

[OhayoKD]

Portion of post removed for derailing. Stick to the discussion at hand and please don't try to moderate other posters.


I think Kareem's "comparative frame" can be extended significantly beyond "4" without really hurting how he compares to others. He is the best pre-nba player ever(maybe russell has a case?) and probably was the best player ever(relative to era at least) between the ages of 18 to 22 already being talked about as "the best in the world" before he even entered the league. Kareem saw unprecedented success(except for Bird) as rookie taking a 27 win team to 56 wins(with the addition of a player similar to Oakley), and as has been covered various times, he posts a series of signals only really rivalled (considering replication) by Lebron from 70-75. Note Kareem is also looking competitive with anyone in terms of box-stuff despite having several disadvantages that his smaller and more contemporary counterparts do not. What really impresses me, is that, even after expansion, Kareem still looks similarly impressive, posting, arguably, the best ever three year scoring stretch(to go with nigh unrivalled resiliency vs elite defense) and looking quite strong from a "raw" approach getting 45 wins with the gutted remnants of a 30 win team:

I think they would be definitely worse, the Lakers lost a lot of valuable pieces that made their depth a little better - Happy Hairston was still a very nice contributor, they had veterans like Zelmo Beaty, Connie Hawkins and of course Elmore Smith was a decent center. Then you have to take into account that Gail Goodrich regressed from 1975 year as well. With Kermit injury, the Lakers didn't have any solid bigman outside of Kareem and it was important to have good bigman rotation back then.

If we start from his pre-nba years and then take it to the rest of his prime, I think Kareem's comparative frame rivals anyone with Jabbar's early exploits even giving him points of separation over Lebron and maybe even Russell(at least through their rookie years).

I'd say taking between 4 and 7(or 10 counting pre-nba) years paints him in the best light

[MyUniBroDavis]

Exception to the rule?

Where do you have him and do you have him as a viable candidate?

I'm not saying that it's not possible to rank outside of that range, but I'd say the majority of people making that case are doing so just to prop up their guy.

The majority of people here do not have Jordan as the GOAT, considering lebron was voted as GOAT in the last top 100 project

Most people view jordan as having the GOAT peak on the forum, although I think bron did personally.

Jordan won the other projects though, I think it's tough to really say who's the majority of PC Board GOAT.

I was just going by the most recent one, since his career is still ongoing

At the very least I don’t think it’s a huge consensus

[picko]

I think Jordan and LeBron remain the top two guys. I don't think many of the names that regularly come up in top 10-15 change much.

One guy that does vault up the all-time list is Kawhi. He has a top 20 playoff resume, with a remarkly low number of regular season games, points and achievements.