Has it not become overwhelmingly clear (even to management) it's time to blow this up?

[tdotrep2]

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

That guy is the biggest homer on the board. His opinion doesn't matter

its pretty wild, its quite obvious we're a bad team. Saying we aren't a 35 win team makes no sense.

[ItsDanger]

Need proactive management, not reactive. Where are they?

[will]

Very clear.

[Johnny Bball]

That doesn't answer the question. And its definately opinion, with three teams including the Hawks worse this year than they were last year.

Knicks, Cavs, Indy (for now), BRK have improved. But they aren't accounting for the difference in raptors record.

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for you.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

Its being intentionally obtuse to think league improvements of a couple/3 teams, where the players do get subtracted off other teams making other games/teams easier, but presuming 4-6 games a year, accounts for the difference between 48-34 and 34-48?

It’s just bad logic.

There is the same/better personnel. And yet here we are, everyone thinking this is a 30-52 team again. What…they just overachieved last year at a phenomenal rate? They can get there by tanking maybe.

But that’s going to cost them players this time.

[will]

It's been time.

[TorontoBarneys]

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for you.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

Its being intentionally obtuse to think league improvements of a couple/3 teams, where the players do get subtracted off other teams making other games/teams easier, but presuming 4-6 games a year, accounts for the difference between 48-34 and 34-48?

It’s just bad logic.

There is the same/better personnel. And yet here we are, everyone thinking this is a 30-52 team again. What…they just overachieved last year at a phenomenal rate? They can get there by tanking maybe.

But that’s going to cost them players this time.

Your main argument is that we are better than our record but the only thing you can point to for evidence for that is on-the-court evidence. The fact is we have no idea what is bubbling up behind the scenes and how much it's affected the team. We know there is SOME level of locker room issues and disruptive play happening. To say that it hasn't impacted overall team performance is probably disingenuous.

Personally, I think certain players are more worried about their next contract than the team's success, other players are dealing with injuries and a system that's not friendly to them, other players are struggling with carrying the team so damn hard, and the rest probably feel they are not being given a fair shot and only get play in tiny spurts.

Lots of reasons to think overall the team is very dysfunctional, not ever taking talent or mechanical roster construction into account.

[YogurtProducer]

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for you.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

Its being intentionally obtuse to think league improvements of a couple/3 teams, where the players do get subtracted off other teams making other games/teams easier, but presuming 4-6 games a year, accounts for the difference between 48-34 and 34-48?

It’s just bad logic.

There is the same/better personnel. And yet here we are, everyone thinking this is a 30-52 team again. What…they just overachieved last year at a phenomenal rate? They can get there by tanking maybe.

But that’s going to cost them players this time.

Haha somehow I am a homer for pointing out that we are now 2-9 in 1 possession games, and our NRTG is still indicative of a team that is 5-6 wins better than our current record shows.

Somehow simply posting some facts here is being a homer. Im not saying being .500 or whatever is good (having the ability to tweak and add a lottery pick to this core seems like a great problem to have).

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Even if this isn’t a 30 win team, being a 45 win team with no championship ceiling is worse. Why clamour to be the next Portland Trailblazer team that makes the playoffs every year but no one worries about them winning anything. Even if we miraculously won all our close games we are just in lockstep with the Knicks and the aging Heat. What’s the point in fighting for 6-7 to get railroaded by top teams in the playoffs

No way y’all watched the Philly series and thought this team with no major improvements is in championship contention let alone round 2 contention. If we re-sign everyone there is no room to make major trades or sign anyone else. This team had a terrible half court O last year and it’s still terrible, we also have a horrendous bench that was only “improved” with the addition of Otto Porter.

I’m happy this season happened to hopefully open the eyes of this FO that this team isn’t gonna win a ring with the current core. The Jazz had a way better team and tore it down

[Chandan]

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for you.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

Its being intentionally obtuse to think league improvements of a couple/3 teams, where the players do get subtracted off other teams making other games/teams easier, but presuming 4-6 games a year, accounts for the difference between 48-34 and 34-48?

It’s just bad logic.

There is the same/better personnel. And yet here we are, everyone thinking this is a 30-52 team again. What…they just overachieved last year at a phenomenal rate? They can get there by tanking maybe.

But that’s going to cost them players this time.

Haha somehow I am a homer for pointing out that we are now 2-9 in 1 possession games, and our NRTG is still indicative of a team that is 5-6 wins better than our current record shows.

Somehow simply posting some facts here is being a homer. Im not saying being .500 or whatever is good (having the ability to tweak and add a lottery pick to this core seems like a great problem to have).

Current record is a better indicator of how good the team is instead of NRTG in 1 possession games. Why work backwards to force an illusion that ends up countering a tangible result?

[Johnny Bball]

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for you.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

Its being intentionally obtuse to think league improvements of a couple/3 teams, where the players do get subtracted off other teams making other games/teams easier, but presuming 4-6 games a year, accounts for the difference between 48-34 and 34-48?

It’s just bad logic.

There is the same/better personnel. And yet here we are, everyone thinking this is a 30-52 team again. What…they just overachieved last year at a phenomenal rate? They can get there by tanking maybe.

But that’s going to cost them players this time.

Your main argument is that we are better than our record but the only thing you can point to for evidence for that is on-the-court evidence. The fact is we have no idea what is bubbling up behind the scenes and how much it's affected the team. We know there is SOME level of locker room issues and disruptive play happening. To say that it hasn't impacted overall team performance is probably disingenuous.

Personally, I think certain players are more worried about their next contract than the team's success, other players are dealing with injuries and a system that's not friendly to them, other players are struggling with carrying the team so damn hard, and the rest probably feel they are not being given a fair shot and only get play in tiny spurts.

Lots of reasons to think overall the team is very dysfunctional, not ever taking talent or mechanical roster construction into account.

I think the two players up for contract are all but gone now. Along with Thad and Porter. I agree there are issues in the locker room, but I'm thinking a fair bit of it or all of it is on Nurse. This team as built was fine last year. There's not a sudden shift into "it doesn't work" as much as everyone wants that to be the case to stick to old school builds and resist change.

My point is that those issues are correctable with the non-free agents. The guys that are free agents... why would they stick around after this team tanked their UFA contract season? This is going to have a bigger impact that Nurse thinks. So I think we agree but have different causes and different outcomes. Why blow it up when the players are not the issue? Go to the deadline and they are probably now forced to trade GTJ and FVV or to overpay them after this garbage playing out. Pray you can change OGs mind next year.

And I have yet to hear any good excuse for calling a timeout on a turnover when its 5 on 3.

[Johnny Bball]

That doesn't answer the question. And its definately opinion, with three teams including the Hawks worse this year than they were last year.

Knicks, Cavs, Indy (for now), BRK have improved. But they aren't accounting for the difference in raptors record.

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for you.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

Time? You aren't getting it. Time is not going to change anything. This team is tanking intentionally. Or Nurse is incompetent. You pick. I don't know how he can become so bad and so stupid in a season though.

Tell me which is more likely or those two? I mean it's what you all wanted and now you're going to argue it's not happening? We both saw last night and the Bucks and the Wolves. But we seem to have a very different idea of why I guess?

I'll tell you what... if this isn't on purpose the last month, Nurse should be fired and the team should be blown up at the deadline (beyond trading GTJ who they now are forced to trade and FVV) because it does in fact suck. And if that doesn't happen, then you know what is going on for sure.

[HumbleRen]

Johnny is on some next level copium.

This team isn't losing on purpose, they're just sadly this incompetent now.

[fbalmeida]

My theory on the front office's apparent inaction:

The long term plan at C may very well be waiting for a "straight from the motherland" rotation of Achiuwa and Koloko to take form, and using a 6'9 lineup occasionally to mix it up. This, rather than shipping out valuable assets for a competent big now, whose contract or prime may not fit with the way the front office is mapping out our salary cap structure and competitiveness windows of Siakam + Barnes.

The detailed explanation:

Achiuwa may be one more off-season development plan away from polishing his offensive game, for instance, by improving his corner 3pt, or low post game. He's 30% from both the corner and from 3-10 feet. These are two areas he can focus on and improve.

Koloko though is a bit further away. Next season, with some hard work, he might progress to become a fun yet erratic big. Right now he's just erratic. Add a second season and I can see him becoming a really effective big.

The problem with both of them is how their development timeline doesn't currently align with Fred, OG, and Siakam's timeline.

Past 2024, we'll almost certainly have Barnes, Achiuwa, Koloko. We can maybe assume Siakam will be extended for serious money beyond 2023-24. Beyond these guys, we might be tossing a bag of money at OG next season as his player option comes up. Love OG. I'd probably do it.

So past 2024 the front office may be looking to have:

-----
Barnes
Need for a great missing piece, possibly a combo guard type who run plays, defend, and shoot.
OG
Siakam
Achiuwa/ Koloko
-------

I see flexibility here if they're looking at Fred and Gary already as tradable assets. They could opt to re-sign Fred, and trade Trent for depth pieces/expirings, and draft capital, or a good young asset who could become that missing piece. Or they could simply trade Fred now for an affordable return that aligns with this Barnes-Siakam 2024 timeline.

Ultimately, at this point, it doesn't seem reasonable nor likely to expect the trio of Fred, OG, and Siakam will remain together past their current contracts simply on account of the cap implications of keeping all three.

So yeah, maybe trading assets for an older fix at C, right now, as I've often put out there, may not be the best long term solution. Because that means we'd be going with Barnes, OG, Siakam, a veteran overpriced big, Achiuwa, and fewer assets, if any, for getting that missing piece.

It's hard for me to accept this conclusion and arrive at this understanding, but the ultimate futility of the Fred, OG, and Siakam core, and lack of a buy-in to support them and balance the roster, which always appeared to me as a cruel sacrifice on behalf of the front office, may have always been a foregone conclusion for Masai and Bobby, from the start of the post-Lowry era.

[ConSarnit]

It is overconfidence and arrogance from the front office to the coaching staff, really.

They thought they could bring in a bunch of dudes based solely on their long arms and wingspan and then teach them all to be great shooters, ball handlers, etc...thinking that they they could do for all these guys what Pascal did...and they were wrong.

Scottie can't shoot.
Delano can't shoot.
Precious is OK but not great.
OG is OK but not great.
Koloko can't shoot.

They thought they could have an entire team of Pascals...

3 of these guys are first or second year players. 2 are 2nd rounders.

Answer these questions:

Please regale us with Pascal's 3pt shooting stats as a 2nd year player. I'd also like to know who you would have drafted instead of Banton or Koloko who would be helping us right now with shooting and ball handling. Please provide the names of these 2nd round players who are greatly contributing to their teams success, because surely there must have been better options for us?

I'm not going redo the last few drafts just for the sake an argument (although Jaden Hardy has looked really good when given more 20 minutes or more in Dallas/G-League)...but to make an example of the mindset our front office has towards personnel acquisitions. Free agent signings, drafted players, etc...the mindset of the front office seems to be: "I don't care that a player has no offensive talent or mindset because I can teach that. I care that they have ++wingspans and don't always get cooked on defence. We did it with Pascal so we can do it with anyone!" Let's admit...Pascal becoming the player he is...it's lightning in a bottle and you may not be able to repeat that with every guy you bring into the system.

This goes back to loading the roster with free agents like Stanley Johnson, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Deandre Bembry, etc. Are there guys in the draft that the front office passed up that could be or are really good players even though they don't fit the profile of what the Raptors are looking for as I described above? Absolutely. I agree that it might be too early to write off Banton and Koloko but on a team that is starved for shooting and scoring...you can't ignore what these guys can't currently give you.

This is vision 6-9.

In contrast, I look at how the Grizzlies have drafted over the last few years and they don't draft with a particular archetype of player/frame. They draft guys who can play...period. Desmond Bane and Dillon Brooks are playing huge starting roles. David Roddy has produced well when given minutes. Jon Konchar and Santi Aldama filled in as a starters when Brooks/Bane/JJJ have been injured and produced. David Roddy has produced when given minutes. Kenneth Lofton Jr. is an awesome pickup who seems to be able to score on anyone once he gets into the lane. NONE of these guys would fit the Raptors profile as a draft target...but in reality these guys are playing key roles on one of the league's best and most exciting teams (or are at least killing it in the G-League in Lofton's case).

Raptors front office had a chance to see if they could develop a roster full of Pascal Siakams and Kawhi Leonards from a bunch of dudes with ++wingspans only and so far it hasn't been the case.

You can't redo the past 2 drafts because it destroys your argument. Then you name a bunch of guys who were drafted BEFORE our picks.

David Roddy is a PF that has a 50% TS (terrible for any player, let alone a big), is averaging 6&3 and has rebound rate of <7% (not even in the top 200 for forwards). He is horrendous offensively. Please tell me how he'd help this team. Kenneth Lofton has played 24 TOTAL NBA minutes. These guys are not good (just like our recent draft picks). It's crazy that you are bringing them up as some type of evidence of our mistakes when neither of these guys should be in an NBA rotation.

Dillon Brooks was drafted after OG. OG is a more valuable player than Brooks. You're naming a bunch of MEM players who are either A) not good or B) we drafted a better player than them earlier in the draft. And when we missed on Bane we drafted a 6'0 point guard, which goes against your entire "6'9 vision" the FO is apparently locked into.

Also, please explain:

Flynn (6'0)
Svi (6'6, negative wingspan)
Brooks (6'3)
Jalen Harris (6'4)
Matt Thomas (6'4)
Terrence Davis (6'4)

All guys brought in around the same time as Stanley Johnson and RHJ. Oh wait, you conveniently forgot those guys because it doesn't fit your argument. "Longboi" only gets brought up because we drafted Scottie. Would you rather we had drafted Suggs?

This team drafts BPA. You're criticizing them because first and second year players (2 2nd rounders) aren't fully developed? Do you see how dumb that is? You're asking these guys to be Siakam when Siakam wasn't even close to the player he is today at a similar point in his career. You bring up Memphis, who is either #1 or #2 in drafting in the league. Guess who is #2 if they are #1? Us. we might even be #1.

So let's summarize: you think we are locked into team 6'9, yet we've signed/drafted numerous players who don't fit that mold. We are apparently failing at drafting, but only when compared to possibly the best drafting team in the league (who might not even be better than us). And you expect our 1st and 2nd year players to be fully developed all-stars by now. Do I have this right?

[Tacoma]

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for you.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

Time? You aren't getting it. Time is not going to change anything. This team is tanking intentionally. Or Nurse is incompetent. You pick. I don't know how he can become so bad and so stupid in a season though.

Tell me which is more likely or those two? I mean it's what you all wanted and now you're going to argue it's not happening? We both saw last night and the Bucks and the Wolves. But we seem to have a very different idea of why I guess?

I'll tell you what... if this isn't on purpose the last month, Nurse should be fired and the team should be blown up at the deadline (beyond trading GTJ who they now are forced to trade and FVV) because it does in fact suck. And if that doesn't happen, then you know what is going on for sure.

This team is NOT tanking intentionally. Masai is still evaluating and have not given the directive to Nurse to tank. They are still trying to win and failing. If they were tanking, Siakam wouldn't be 40 min in January, 43 min last night, and others like Koloko, Blanton and Flynn would be getting more.

As for your throwing shade on Nurse, he's the same coach last year when we won 48. Is it his fault that key players have regressed? Is it his fault others may be (as you allude) playing for their next contract? Why aren't we talking about Masai? FVV/GTJ had career years in 2022, at their highest trade value. Why did he do nothing knowing they'd be playing more selfish in their contract year?

Masai also didn't address the team's most glaring weaknesses in shooting and at Center. His reputed 6'9" experiment is failing. He knows we're still rebuilding but also trying to play to win (e.g., Thad trade for poorer draft position). He tries to rebuild the bench every year and failing. The roster is poorly constructed and we have a talent issue. That's on Masai, not Nurse.

Masai is still the best damn Raptors Prez we've ever had but if you're going to throw shade at Nurse, don't stop there.

[NotMyKawhi]

rank the players available compared to our guys

Everyone on Jazz but Lauri and kessler
Eric Gordon
Hayward, rozier

[Pointgod]

The Raptors don’t have to go for a full rebuild, but they do need to do a retool, even if it means taking a step back. What does that mean? We’ll trade established pieces for picks and younger players that address a need, but are currently undervalued.

I think about the Boston Celtics in in 2013 when they traded KG and Pierce, they sucked for one season to draft Marcus Smart and then were in the playoffs the next year even if it was as a first round team. That single decision to trade KG and Pierce instead of letting them age out single handidly change the course of team history. Now they got incredibly lucky that the Nets player’s unexplainablely fell off a cliff and management seemed to tank despite not owning their own picks, but none of that happens if they don’t pull the trigger in the KG and Pierce trade.

Which leads us to the Raptors. They have to move one of Scottie, Pascal or OG. There’s no way all 3 can occupy the same space. The team needs shooting and an inside presence at the C position. I feel that Masai and co have been way too Conservative with making deals. Our bench stinks, the 6’9 experiment isn’t a bad philosophy but at some point it’s smart to try and get a 6’9 guy that can actually shoot. You have to move guys when they’re at their peak value and I feel they’re reluctant to move guys like Siakim, OG, Fred, GTJ out of some sense of loyalty to homegrown talent(yes I know GTJ was a trade). Conversely you don’t wait until a player is at his highest trade value to pick him up. You have to take calculated risks. So yes a move is in order but you don’t have to go full tank. I’d argue two of Siakim, OG, VanVleet or GTJ should be on the move to get back maximum returns in the form of picks and additional assets.

[anotherhomer]

It's been time.

has MLSE (Bell, Rogers, Larry, etc) approved to punt this season?

[will]

It's been time.

has MLSE (Bell, Rogers, Larry, etc) approved to punt this season?

Ticket sales, merch sales and sponsor money will still be there.

[anotherhomer]

It's been time.

has MLSE (Bell, Rogers, Larry, etc) approved to punt this season?

Ticket sales, merch sales and sponsor money will still be there.

then they should totally punt

i get FVV's a tough guy, but he and Raps are going in opposite directions
Raps want him to become primarily C&S and secondary shooter/playmaker , to the longbois
FVV wants to have the ball in his hand more

Dallas and Suns would be a good choice....i think he ends up with Suns this trade deadline.
If Suns are willing to give up 2 FRPs