Offensively: Current Jokic or 2016 Curry?

[70sFan]

I feel like Jokic is just a better player at this point. We can talk about defense, but Jokic hasn’t had the luxury of being surrounded by a loaded defensive cast like Curry had most or all of his prime.

I'd love to see Jokic surrounded by great defensive players.

We are seeing Jokic surrounded by good-to-very-good defensive players this season and I expect the playoffs to be different than the previous 2 seasons.

Very few Offensive Stars in NBA History were ever surrounded by a Draymond-tier defender though.

He had some decent defenders in Denver, but how many would you call "very good"? KCP is certainly there, Gordon is decent (though overrated) and that's basically it for main rotation guys. The rest isn't horrible, but I wouldn't call them noteworthy either.

Jokic with someone like Draymond on defense would be very interesting to see.

[No-more-rings]

I feel like Jokic is just a better player at this point. We can talk about defense, but Jokic hasn’t had the luxury of being surrounded by a loaded defensive cast like Curry had most or all of his prime.

Why is this relevant?

To their offense, nothing.

[MyUniBroDavis]

To an extent 2016 Curry was a mixture of a play style taking the league by storm and his ridiculous talent. I don’t think in a vacuum there’s much seperation between Peak Curry on offense and Jokic in the RS, I’d probably lean curry. In era impact I have Curry by a lot though for what I mentioned below.


I do think Jokic has thus far been consistently been amazing offensively in the RS in the playoffs and currys only playoff run where he was on this level was 2017 though

[Jaqua92]

Regular season, it's Curry.

Jokic's playoff peak remains to be seen.

Curry's impact shrinks in the playoffs, imo, even that year. It's why most don't actually put his peak/prime up there with the MJs, Brons, Shaqs and Hakeem's of the world.

Who had the better offensive season? Steph.

Who's the better offensive player? Case for either. But slight edge to Steph.

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[Peregrine01]

The thing that seems to be the differentiator for me is that Jokic has so far had an answer for any defense thrown at him, no matter how good on offense his teammates are. Curry has a dependency on others (namely Green) to optimize him on offense and even then showed that he can be contained with hard doubles, traps and ball denial in 2016.

There might not be a more electric offensive season than Curry in 2016 and the Dubs blew so many outmatched teams out of the water before the fourth quarter even started but I think I prefer Jokic's more consistent offensive impact more.

[homecourtloss]

I just noticed Jokic is averaging a +23 on/off, is that a record? Lol.

Using stats.nba.com for exact numbers (ON-OFF numbers on BKREF are estimates), Jokic is +21.2 ON-OFF. His teammate, KCP, is +24.2 ON-OFF.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I just noticed Jokic is averaging a +23 on/off, is that a record? Lol.

Using stats.nba.com for exact numbers (ON-OFF numbers on BKREF are estimates), Jokic is +21.2 ON-OFF. His teammate, KCP, is +24.2 ON-OFF.

That’s only since they won by 20+ ish without him yesterday I think, Jokic was leading for a minute iirc.

[homecourtloss]

I just noticed Jokic is averaging a +23 on/off, is that a record? Lol.

Using stats.nba.com for exact numbers (ON-OFF numbers on BKREF are estimates), Jokic is +21.2 ON-OFF. His teammate, KCP, is +24.2 ON-OFF.

That’s only since they won by 20+ ish without him yesterday I think, Jokic was leading for a minute iirc.

He was though KCP has been close to him all season. Denver’s offense even without Jokic is really gelling and is almost impossible to stop with Jokic.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Using stats.nba.com for exact numbers (ON-OFF numbers on BKREF are estimates), Jokic is +21.2 ON-OFF. His teammate, KCP, is +24.2 ON-OFF.

That’s only since they won by 20+ ish without him yesterday I think, Jokic was leading for a minute iirc.

He was though KCP has been close to him all season. Denver’s offense even without Jokic is really gelling and is almost impossible to stop with Jokic.

Yeah KCP is such an awesome role player, any front office would love to have him and I’m sure no team would actively trade him for a piece that doesn’t fit at all

[BelgradeNugget]

I'd love to see Jokic surrounded by great defensive players.

We are seeing Jokic surrounded by good-to-very-good defensive players this season and I expect the playoffs to be different than the previous 2 seasons.

Very few Offensive Stars in NBA History were ever surrounded by a Draymond-tier defender though.

He had some decent defenders in Denver, but how many would you call "very good"? KCP is certainly there, Gordon is decent (though overrated) and that's basically it for main rotation guys. The rest isn't horrible, but I wouldn't call them noteworthy either.

Jokic with someone like Draymond on defense would be very interesting to see.

Denver's starting 5 defense is more built on Sparta's flange system than on so much individual brilliance.

Similar to offence. If you look at Murray, KCP, AG, MPJ in a vacuum neither of them is great offensive player. But Murray/Jokic two man game is unstoppable. MPJ is not good at creating, and they don't use him that way, but as catch and shoot player - killer. AG is great at exploring mismatches on low block and whenever he gets deep position under the basket he gets the ball. Great from dunker spot, cutting, in 4/5 pnr. KCP is money from the corners, and Jokic is Jokic. Everybody doing their job and they have the best offense.

As for defense KCP is great point of attack defender. It all starts from there. Murray is great at closeouts, on post if switched, box-outs...AG is great at defending big wings - LeBron, Kawhi, Luka...and MPJ is great rebounder, and good help defender thanks to his length. Jokic is great in pnr on the level, preventing passes to roll man thanks to his hands, great in steels, deflections, positioning, boxing-out, rebounds and thanks to his strength against big man in the post. The most important thing is their size - Murray 6'4, KCP 6'5, MPJ 6'10, AG 6'9, Jokic 7'. Sometimes pure size and length prevents easy passes on post (you know when we all think, how PG didn't see a player, but maybe he did see but couldn't throw a pass), to the players in corner...
They all have weaknesses as well - Jokic with foot speed (that is where AG and MPJ jump in as help defenders), and rim protection (goal is to keep players from the rim), MPJ as 1on1 defender against great scoring wings. Every team knows their weakness so it has to be seen how well is flange trained.

So far their starting lineup is 4th best among all lineups with more then 200 mins (20 lineups)

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*200&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

Also they have the best defensive rating in clutch (20 games - 89 minutes)

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/clutch-advanced?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

So there is a reason to be concerned but also for optimism...

[Pelly24]

Technically Curry, but I think Jokic is a better one-on-one scorer and harder to take out of a game because he's literally the GOAT passer. He can score inside the 2point arc at will basically. Maybe 2016 Curry's injury has distorted my view of things, but it's just hard for me to say anyone is better on offense than this Jokic