NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

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Who is your current NBA MVP? (listed alphabetically)

Giannis Antetokounmpo
51
13%
Luka Doncic
70
18%
Kevin Durant
19
5%
Joel Embiid
25
6%
Nikola Jokic
167
42%
Donovan Mitchell
2
1%
Ja Morant
2
1%
Jayson Tatum
48
12%
Zion Williamson
5
1%
Other (Booker, Curry, Davis, SGA, etc.)
8
2%
 
Total votes: 397

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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1541 » by Exp0sed » Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:33 am

eyeatoma wrote:Embiid about to miss his next game.. I'd say he's definitely out at this point. They're clearly prioritizing the chip and final mvp run lol.

I'm rooting for Luka at this point.

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sure, either that or Embiid is just never healthy for long stretches? needs alot of maintenance?

fwiw i have said in preseason and throughtout the season that the 76ers are real contenders, esecially if Embiid focuses more on bball and not on flailing around

they have a seriously stacked roster that fits decently together with good backups at every position

Harden has been one the best playmakers in the league and a top 15 player easily this season
Maxey is fun
Harris, Melton, Tucker, Milton, Harrel (and more) is just a sick rotation

the 76ers without Embiid or Harden just beat a very good and streaking Kinds team on their home floor
well, Maxey always plays much better when Embiid isn't around nothing new here

but be real, Embiid wants to play and chase records and accolades
if he was able to play or it was reasonably safe for him to play - he would have played
it's not because they are "prioritizing"

they have a good shot imo if Embiid can be healthy in the playoffs and stay healthy throughout
thats a big if but still :)
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1542 » by eyeatoma » Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:48 am

Exp0sed wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:Embiid about to miss his next game.. I'd say he's definitely out at this point. They're clearly prioritizing the chip and final mvp run lol.

I'm rooting for Luka at this point.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk


sure, either that or Embiid is just never healthy for long stretches? needs alot of maintenance?

fwiw i have said in preseason and throughtout the season that the 76ers are real contenders, esecially if Embiid focuses more on bball and not on flailing around

they have a seriously stacked roster that fits decently together with good backups at every position

Harden has been one the best playmakers in the league and a top 15 player easily this season
Maxey is fun
Harris, Melton, Tucker, Milton, Harrel (and more) is just a sick rotation

the 76ers without Embiid or Harden just beat a very good and streaking Kinds team on their home floor
well, Maxey always plays much better when Embiid isn't around nothing new here

but be real, Embiid wants to play and chase records and accolades
if he was able to play or it was reasonably safe for him to play - he would have played
it's not because they are "prioritizing"

they have a good shot imo if Embiid can be healthy in the playoffs and stay healthy throughout
thats a big if but still :)


It was definitely load management. Their next game is on Wednesday. Between the last game they played and the next game that would give him 5 days to rest. They've done this with him for years. It's how they always choose his load management days.

If he wanted to go for the MVP he would play, I agree. I think once he sat for the last 4 games, he has probably realized that he's missed too many games. If he only missed half the games he would have played right now.

Yeah Philly are contenders, lets see how they do. They will need to get to the finals bare minimum for this to be a successful season.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1543 » by DCasey91 » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:00 am

76ers (As a fan) haven’t been contenders since Butler and even then they were too green at the top imo.

Seriously I thought we were the only ones to overrate the list.

Embiid will never be a serious MVP candidate he’ll finish high but will always miss too many games for one reason or another. He’s only fit for about 60 games a year give or take.

Anyway it’s Jokic clearly as a 2 win separation is not enough for Tatum. Great season though nothing to take away from him.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1544 » by Exp0sed » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:12 am

eyeatoma wrote:
Exp0sed wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:Embiid about to miss his next game.. I'd say he's definitely out at this point. They're clearly prioritizing the chip and final mvp run lol.

I'm rooting for Luka at this point.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk




It was definitely load management. Their next game is on Wednesday. Between the last game they played and the next game that would give him 5 days to rest. They've done this with him for years. It's how they always choose his load management days.

If he wanted to go for the MVP he would play, I agree. I think once he sat for the last 4 games, he has probably realized that he's missed too many games. If he only missed half the games he would have played right now.

Yeah Philly are contenders, lets see how they do. They will need to get to the finals bare minimum for this to be a successful season.



do u see why this also affects all his gawdy per-min stats?
i.e - best scorer ever e etc.?

can u imagine how the atg offensive players would look if they had a week here, 2 two weeks thee, 5 days here to rest during the rs?

if they'd been able to rest when they needed it and play 50-60 games a season - they would have produced more, that's for sure :P
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1545 » by DCasey91 » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:20 am

Sgt Major wrote:Image



Dirk + Bird in a center’s body what a time to be alive lol.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1546 » by BelgradeNugget » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:30 am

Sgt Major wrote:
Statlanta wrote:Jokic winning a third MVP doesn't speak much about the level of his play but the level of his competition.

Curry, Davis, Leonard and Embiid are never consistently healthy in the regular season.
Giannis is declining while he's in his 20s.
LeBron James is too old.
Tatum almost had his team on the verge of a break up last season.
Morant and Williamson are too green and their teams win without them.
Doncic doesn't have the stamina to balance his international commitments with his NBA ones.

These guys let a un-athletic Serbian Center with no charisma repeat, and about to threepeat the Michael Jordan award because of their regular season deficiencies. That's how unspectacular the field is playing. The same media who markets MJ for being the GOAT votes on this.



Quite the opposite - in fact that shows how different he is compared to the rest of the pack. While they're all at the same level when it comes to inconsistency and/or injury-proneness, he's an outlier and the strongest, most consistent guy on the planet that just keeps getting better and better.


And just to add about the level of his play, he is first player since Wilt, that you don't have to use "since Wilt" anymore to describe his accomplishments.

From SI

"The Joker has likely earned this award for the third straight season in a row, and even with some incredible individual efforts around the league, Jokić may run away with MVP by the end of the year.

Denver currently has a 125.4 offensive rating with Joker on the floor; that’s nearly eight points per 100 possessions better than Boston’s overall No. 1 offense. With Jokić on the court this season, the Nuggets have a better offense than the 2017 Warriors Hamptons Five lineup.

Joker is both individually dominant out of basically any offensive action—be it isolations, post-ups, rolling to the hoop—while also significantly improving the play of those around him. No player in the league comes close to matching that current combination. (Seriously, per CTG, Jokić is in the 100th percentile in overall on/off difference; in the 99th percentile in effective field goal percentage on/off difference; and in the 95th percentile in defensive on/off difference. The Nuggets go from championship contender to “our most untrustworthy family member is being forced to babysit because of an unforeseen emergency, and now the kids are eating ice cream for dinner” whenever Jokic rests.)"


From The Ringer

"The case for Nikola Jokic’s third straight MVP is a choose your own adventure.

Jokic is not only third in true shooting percentage (69.0 percent) despite dunking the ball just 12 times all season, but he’s also first in true shooting percentage among all players in NBA history who’ve put up at least 15 shots per game. Over half of Jokic’s shots are away from the rim. Think about it too hard and your brain will become putty. On direct actions, among all players who’ve completed at least 100 of them, Jokic ranks first in isolation, second in the post (shout-out to Domantas Sabonis), and fourth as the ball handler in a pick-and-roll. Great things happen for the Nuggets when Aaron Gordon sets a screen:

Are you into catchall advanced metrics? Jokic ranks or is tied for first in PER, win shares, BPM, VORP, estimated plus/minus, and FiveThirtyEight’s total RAPTOR. He’s third in ESPN’s real plus/minus.

The Nuggets register a plus-11.3 net rating with Jokic. The closest All-Stars to Jokic’s number are Joel Embiid and Jayson Tatum, at 8.8 and 9.1, respectively. Denver also has the best offense in the NBA, which is nice. Dig deeper. Their attack is the most efficient in league history with Jokic (123.4 points per 100 possessions) and significantly worse than the intentionally terrible Rockets (more on them later) when he sits.[/b]"


Does this speak of how level of his play is above everybody else?

He is 0.1 assist shy of averaging triple double.

25.1/11.0/9.9 on 62.6%/37.2%/82.1%

And the most scary thing - he is increasing the level of his play every month.
His basic box-score splits for the month of January

23.7/11.1/11.1 on 66.7%/52.9%/88.9% - no this is not mistake.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1547 » by PennSports » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:45 am

Exp0sed wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Exp0sed wrote:


It was definitely load management. Their next game is on Wednesday. Between the last game they played and the next game that would give him 5 days to rest. They've done this with him for years. It's how they always choose his load management days.

If he wanted to go for the MVP he would play, I agree. I think once he sat for the last 4 games, he has probably realized that he's missed too many games. If he only missed half the games he would have played right now.

Yeah Philly are contenders, lets see how they do. They will need to get to the finals bare minimum for this to be a successful season.



do u see why this also affects all his gawdy per-min stats?
i.e - best scorer ever e etc.?

can u imagine how the atg offensive players would look if they had a week here, 2 two weeks thee, 5 days here to rest during the rs?

if they'd been able to rest when they needed it and play 50-60 games a season - they would have produced more, that's for sure :P



everyone is in a different situation, Jokic is putting up great efficiency on fewer attempts and will often barely take any shots. People are lauding his efficiency and rightfully so hes having an amazing season

embiid putting up greats stats on his most minutes played per game, on his greatest efficiency, and greatest volume is not a bad thing lol. Shooting less shots is correlated to better efficiency and everyone agrees on that. Playing less games is not correlated to better efficiency or per minute numbers unless you have something to prove that? You say they can go harder with "rest" but most of embiids missed games are not injury management and actual injury or sickness. Claiming that to be a boon needs some evidence behind it to be taken as a serious argument.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1548 » by Exp0sed » Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:30 pm

PennSports wrote:
Exp0sed wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
It was definitely load management. Their next game is on Wednesday. Between the last game they played and the next game that would give him 5 days to rest. They've done this with him for years. It's how they always choose his load management days.

If he wanted to go for the MVP he would play, I agree. I think once he sat for the last 4 games, he has probably realized that he's missed too many games. If he only missed half the games he would have played right now.

Yeah Philly are contenders, lets see how they do. They will need to get to the finals bare minimum for this to be a successful season.



do u see why this also affects all his gawdy per-min stats?
i.e - best scorer ever e etc.?

can u imagine how the atg offensive players would look if they had a week here, 2 two weeks thee, 5 days here to rest during the rs?

if they'd been able to rest when they needed it and play 50-60 games a season - they would have produced more, that's for sure :P



everyone is in a different situation, Jokic is putting up great efficiency on fewer attempts and will often barely take any shots. People are lauding his efficiency and rightfully so hes having an amazing season

embiid putting up greats stats on his most minutes played per game, on his greatest efficiency, and greatest volume is not a bad thing lol. Shooting less shots is correlated to better efficiency and everyone agrees on that. Playing less games is not correlated to better efficiency or per minute numbers unless you have something to prove that? You say they can go harder with "rest" but most of embiids missed games are not injury management and actual injury or sickness. Claiming that to be a boon needs some evidence behind it to be taken as a serious argument.


shooting less is def correlated with higher efficiency
we've already seen Jokic take more shots (albeit with much worse spacing\help around him) and sure, no1 is claiming he could score 33 on 70 ts% lol. obviously his efficiency would drop somewhat with more shots, not by that much tho (as he has shown in the past

he'd be more efficient than Emiid tho, even on more shots, as he has his entire career

as a matter of fact, just last playoffs playing by himself with a g-league roster and without HCA he managed to score 31 while taking over 20 FGA and posting 64 ts% in the playoffs vs the eventual champion and the best defense in the league

but yea sure, it's "correlated"

not sure if ur trolling or not about that last part..
there's a mountain of evidence to suggest the significance of rest in relation to performance :P

just check out all-time splits that compare back to backs to 3+ days rest, or one day rest vs 2 etc.
or use the eye test or common sense :)

it doesn't matter if Embiid isn't playing because he is being held as a precaution (as was the case countless times) or whether he's sitting out with an actual injury - either way he's resting.

how many to backs has Embiid missed in his career? you don't think that affects and skews his stats (a bit)?

Embiid stans and Jokic haters clamor about "historical precedents" when speaking about the MVP etc but they won't be fair and do the same when evalutating Embiid's per min stats

is there another all-time great scorer who only played 68+ games once in his career?
that averages about 55 games a season?

Embiid has basically sat out half of his career
is there "historical precedent" for an MVP candidate that plays half the season?
how can u compare a guy with Embiid's mileage, whose played 362 career games in 8.5 seasons to any other guys on the all-time greatest scorer list or best players?

you need evidence to know that Embiid would have played worse if he wasn't resting all the time?
that's a good one
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1549 » by eyeatoma » Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:44 pm

Exp0sed wrote:
PennSports wrote:
Exp0sed wrote:

do u see why this also affects all his gawdy per-min stats?
i.e - best scorer ever e etc.?

can u imagine how the atg offensive players would look if they had a week here, 2 two weeks thee, 5 days here to rest during the rs?

if they'd been able to rest when they needed it and play 50-60 games a season - they would have produced more, that's for sure :P



everyone is in a different situation, Jokic is putting up great efficiency on fewer attempts and will often barely take any shots. People are lauding his efficiency and rightfully so hes having an amazing season

embiid putting up greats stats on his most minutes played per game, on his greatest efficiency, and greatest volume is not a bad thing lol. Shooting less shots is correlated to better efficiency and everyone agrees on that. Playing less games is not correlated to better efficiency or per minute numbers unless you have something to prove that? You say they can go harder with "rest" but most of embiids missed games are not injury management and actual injury or sickness. Claiming that to be a boon needs some evidence behind it to be taken as a serious argument.


shooting less is def correlated with higher efficiency
we've already seen Jokic take more shots (albeit with much worse spacing\help around him) and sure, no1 is claiming he could score 33 on 70 ts% lol. obviously his efficiency would drop somewhat with more shots, not by that much tho (as he has shown in the past

he'd be more efficient than Emiid tho, even on more shots, as he has his entire career

as a matter of fact, just last playoffs playing by himself with a g-league roster and without HCA he managed to score 31 while taking over 20 FGA and posting 64 ts% in the playoffs vs the eventual champion and the best defense in the league

but yea sure, it's "correlated"

not sure if ur trolling or not about that last part..
there's a mountain of evidence to suggest the significance of rest in relation to performance :P

just check out all-time splits that compare back to backs to 3+ days rest, or one day rest vs 2 etc.
or use the eye test or common sense :)

it doesn't matter if Embiid isn't playing because he is being held as a precaution (as was the case countless times) or whether he's sitting out with an actual injury - either way he's resting.

how many to backs has Embiid missed in his career? you don't think that affects and skews his stats (a bit)?

Embiid stans and Jokic haters clamor about "historical precedents" when speaking about the MVP etc but they won't be fair and do the same when evalutating Embiid's per min stats

is there another all-time great scorer who only played 68+ games once in his career?
that averages about 55 games a season?

Embiid has basically sat out half of his career
is there "historical precedent" for an MVP candidate that plays half the season?
how can u compare a guy with Embiid's mileage, whose played 362 career games in 8.5 seasons to any other guys on the all-time greatest scorer list or best players?

you need evidence to know that Embiid would have played worse if he wasn't resting all the time?
that's a good one



He missed his first 2 seasons. Remove those two seasons, and it's far better than what you're saying.

Also, he gets no "rest" benefit from missing those two seasons.

Want to know who else misses a lot of time now, and is constantly in the MVP conversation?

KD, and Giannis. Giannis has just missed 5 games, and will probably miss more than Embiid this season. I don't hear anyone clamoring about per minute dominance for him. You're trying to create some sort of "Thinking Basketball" episode with this line of thinking, where all you're doing is grasping at straws with conjecture. You have no actual concrete evidence about it.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1550 » by Exp0sed » Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:56 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
Exp0sed wrote:
PennSports wrote:

He missed his first 2 seasons. Remove those two seasons, and it's far better than what you're saying.

Also, he gets no "rest" benefit from missing those two seasons.

Want to know who else misses a lot of time now, and is constantly in the MVP conversation?

KD, and Giannis. Giannis has just missed 5 games, and will probably miss more than Embiid this season. I don't hear anyone clamoring about per minute dominance for him. You're trying to create some sort of "Thinking Basketball" episode with this line of thinking, where all you're doing is grasping at straws with conjecture. You have no actual concrete evidence about it.



I was refering to the poster requiring "evidence" to "prove" that rest impacts performance favorably haha, lmfao (talk about grasping at straws)

also I was speaking about the gawdy per-min stats and comparing those to other all-time great scorers, none of which played as little or rested as much as Embiid (or even close)

ur right, he hasn't benefited from rest in the two whole seasons he sat out obviously

nonetheless, a quick statmuse search provided this data:
Embiid has played in 42 total back to back games in his career (most of these probably just in the last few years)

in these 42 games he has posted: 27.4 PPG on 48.9% from the field

edit: fwiw, I've been arguing these past few years that his gawdy per-min numbers are aided by both his rest and ofc - the refs bailing him out on his flailing and foul baiting

with foul baiting being the main culprit as it's the only area on the court he is truly dominant and efficient from - the charity stripe

p.s - for reference, Jokic has played in 97 career back to backs and has just 19.5 pts on 54% from the field in those games

back to backs are hard, especially for lumbering big men
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1551 » by ITYSL » Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:18 pm

eyeatoma wrote:It was definitely load management. Their next game is on Wednesday. Between the last game they played and the next game that would give him 5 days to rest. They've done this with him for years. It's how they always choose his load management days.

If he wanted to go for the MVP he would play, I agree. I think once he sat for the last 4 games, he has probably realized that he's missed too many games. If he only missed half the games he would have played right now.

Yeah Philly are contenders, lets see how they do. They will need to get to the finals bare minimum for this to be a successful season.

Yeah, for Embiid it's either go for the MVP (68 games last season) and fade in the playoffs like he did vs. Miami, or load manage in the RS and hope he can stay healthy and strong enough to have a deep playoff run in him. The second approach is best for the team.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1552 » by ITYSL » Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:30 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:Fine if you want to go all out on the "historical precedent". No player has won missing more than 11 games. So if we go this route, that cancels Jokic out and it cancels Embiid out. Which leaves Tatum and Im all cool with that outcome. No Duke player has ever been a MVP and Im all for it happening this year.

No Duke player having ever been MVP is also an historical precedent... :lol:
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1553 » by dygaction » Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:37 pm

eyeatoma wrote:
Exp0sed wrote:
PennSports wrote:

everyone is in a different situation, Jokic is putting up great efficiency on fewer attempts and will often barely take any shots. People are lauding his efficiency and rightfully so hes having an amazing season

embiid putting up greats stats on his most minutes played per game, on his greatest efficiency, and greatest volume is not a bad thing lol. Shooting less shots is correlated to better efficiency and everyone agrees on that. Playing less games is not correlated to better efficiency or per minute numbers unless you have something to prove that? You say they can go harder with "rest" but most of embiids missed games are not injury management and actual injury or sickness. Claiming that to be a boon needs some evidence behind it to be taken as a serious argument.


shooting less is def correlated with higher efficiency
we've already seen Jokic take more shots (albeit with much worse spacing\help around him) and sure, no1 is claiming he could score 33 on 70 ts% lol. obviously his efficiency would drop somewhat with more shots, not by that much tho (as he has shown in the past

he'd be more efficient than Emiid tho, even on more shots, as he has his entire career

as a matter of fact, just last playoffs playing by himself with a g-league roster and without HCA he managed to score 31 while taking over 20 FGA and posting 64 ts% in the playoffs vs the eventual champion and the best defense in the league

but yea sure, it's "correlated"

not sure if ur trolling or not about that last part..
there's a mountain of evidence to suggest the significance of rest in relation to performance :P

just check out all-time splits that compare back to backs to 3+ days rest, or one day rest vs 2 etc.
or use the eye test or common sense :)

it doesn't matter if Embiid isn't playing because he is being held as a precaution (as was the case countless times) or whether he's sitting out with an actual injury - either way he's resting.

how many to backs has Embiid missed in his career? you don't think that affects and skews his stats (a bit)?

Embiid stans and Jokic haters clamor about "historical precedents" when speaking about the MVP etc but they won't be fair and do the same when evalutating Embiid's per min stats

is there another all-time great scorer who only played 68+ games once in his career?
that averages about 55 games a season?

Embiid has basically sat out half of his career
is there "historical precedent" for an MVP candidate that plays half the season?
how can u compare a guy with Embiid's mileage, whose played 362 career games in 8.5 seasons to any other guys on the all-time greatest scorer list or best players?

you need evidence to know that Embiid would have played worse if he wasn't resting all the time?
that's a good one



He missed his first 2 seasons. Remove those two seasons, and it's far better than what you're saying.

Also, he gets no "rest" benefit from missing those two seasons.

Want to know who else misses a lot of time now, and is constantly in the MVP conversation?

KD, and Giannis. Giannis has just missed 5 games, and will probably miss more than Embiid this season. I don't hear anyone clamoring about per minute dominance for him. You're trying to create some sort of "Thinking Basketball" episode with this line of thinking, where all you're doing is grasping at straws with conjecture. You have no actual concrete evidence about it.


I don't see KD or Giannis fans arguing MVP case for either now...
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1554 » by bisme37 » Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:51 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Do you not understand the point he is making though. You cant say this, then say you think Embiid deserves it. Because people can just throw "historical precedent" as the reason why Embiid shouldnt win.

And if anything, that historical precedent is much more worthy because that actually has to do with the regular season, which is what the MVP is all about.


Historically speaking playoff success has not needed to occur for a player to win their FIRST MVP. While a 3 time MVP player, let alone 3 peat MVP? They are the most successful players of all time, and have atleast won 1 chip. It's not hard to understand why this is brought up.

When you get to that level, the expectations go higher. Is that unheard of? Cmon lol.


Fine if you want to go all out on the "historical precedent". No player has won missing more than 11 games. So if we go this route, that cancels Jokic out and it cancels Embiid out. Which leaves Tatum and Im all cool with that outcome. No Duke player has ever been a MVP and Im all for it happening this year.


Nope. I guess you missed it but Tatum is now out of the MVP race after the Celtics beat the 12th place Raptors last night by 2 points without him.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1555 » by Duke4life831 » Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:00 pm

CoP wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:Fine if you want to go all out on the "historical precedent". No player has won missing more than 11 games. So if we go this route, that cancels Jokic out and it cancels Embiid out. Which leaves Tatum and Im all cool with that outcome. No Duke player has ever been a MVP and Im all for it happening this year.

No Duke player having ever been MVP is also an historical precedent... :lol:

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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1556 » by sam_I_am » Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:15 pm

BelgradeNugget wrote:
Sgt Major wrote:
Statlanta wrote:Jokic winning a third MVP doesn't speak much about the level of his play but the level of his competition.

Curry, Davis, Leonard and Embiid are never consistently healthy in the regular season.
Giannis is declining while he's in his 20s.
LeBron James is too old.
Tatum almost had his team on the verge of a break up last season.
Morant and Williamson are too green and their teams win without them.
Doncic doesn't have the stamina to balance his international commitments with his NBA ones.

These guys let a un-athletic Serbian Center with no charisma repeat, and about to threepeat the Michael Jordan award because of their regular season deficiencies. That's how unspectacular the field is playing. The same media who markets MJ for being the GOAT votes on this.



Quite the opposite - in fact that shows how different he is compared to the rest of the pack. While they're all at the same level when it comes to inconsistency and/or injury-proneness, he's an outlier and the strongest, most consistent guy on the planet that just keeps getting better and better.


And just to add about the level of his play, he is first player since Wilt, that you don't have to use "since Wilt" anymore to describe his accomplishments.

From SI

"The Joker has likely earned this award for the third straight season in a row, and even with some incredible individual efforts around the league, Jokić may run away with MVP by the end of the year.

Denver currently has a 125.4 offensive rating with Joker on the floor; that’s nearly eight points per 100 possessions better than Boston’s overall No. 1 offense. With Jokić on the court this season, the Nuggets have a better offense than the 2017 Warriors Hamptons Five lineup.

Joker is both individually dominant out of basically any offensive action—be it isolations, post-ups, rolling to the hoop—while also significantly improving the play of those around him. No player in the league comes close to matching that current combination. (Seriously, per CTG, Jokić is in the 100th percentile in overall on/off difference; in the 99th percentile in effective field goal percentage on/off difference; and in the 95th percentile in defensive on/off difference. The Nuggets go from championship contender to “our most untrustworthy family member is being forced to babysit because of an unforeseen emergency, and now the kids are eating ice cream for dinner” whenever Jokic rests.)"


From The Ringer

"The case for Nikola Jokic’s third straight MVP is a choose your own adventure.

Jokic is not only third in true shooting percentage (69.0 percent) despite dunking the ball just 12 times all season, but he’s also first in true shooting percentage among all players in NBA history who’ve put up at least 15 shots per game. Over half of Jokic’s shots are away from the rim. Think about it too hard and your brain will become putty. On direct actions, among all players who’ve completed at least 100 of them, Jokic ranks first in isolation, second in the post (shout-out to Domantas Sabonis), and fourth as the ball handler in a pick-and-roll. Great things happen for the Nuggets when Aaron Gordon sets a screen:

Are you into catchall advanced metrics? Jokic ranks or is tied for first in PER, win shares, BPM, VORP, estimated plus/minus, and FiveThirtyEight’s total RAPTOR. He’s third in ESPN’s real plus/minus.

The Nuggets register a plus-11.3 net rating with Jokic. The closest All-Stars to Jokic’s number are Joel Embiid and Jayson Tatum, at 8.8 and 9.1, respectively. Denver also has the best offense in the NBA, which is nice. Dig deeper. Their attack is the most efficient in league history with Jokic (123.4 points per 100 possessions) and significantly worse than the intentionally terrible Rockets (more on them later) when he sits.[/b]"


Does this speak of how level of his play is above everybody else?

He is 0.1 assist shy of averaging triple double.

25.1/11.0/9.9 on 62.6%/37.2%/82.1%

And the most scary thing - he is increasing the level of his play every month.
His basic box-score splits for the month of January

23.7/11.1/11.1 on 66.7%/52.9%/88.9% - no this is not mistake.


So Jokic will probably be MVP again. So why is it so likely he gets knocked out of playoffs by second round? Because defense is important to winning too.

He is ranked 240th overall in defensive rating. He is ranked 48 in defensive win shares this season. Embiid and Giannis are ranked 1 and 3 in defensive win shares in comparison. Even Curry is ranked higher. Larry Bird is ranked 30th all time in NBA defensive win shares.
"I think the criticism's stupid," Stevens said. "So I don't care. I'm with Jaylen (Brown) on that. Those two had achieved more than most 25 and 26 year olds ever had. I'd rather be in the mix and have my guts ripped out than suck."
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1557 » by Bob8 » Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:21 pm

bisme37 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
eyeatoma wrote:
Historically speaking playoff success has not needed to occur for a player to win their FIRST MVP. While a 3 time MVP player, let alone 3 peat MVP? They are the most successful players of all time, and have atleast won 1 chip. It's not hard to understand why this is brought up.

When you get to that level, the expectations go higher. Is that unheard of? Cmon lol.


Fine if you want to go all out on the "historical precedent". No player has won missing more than 11 games. So if we go this route, that cancels Jokic out and it cancels Embiid out. Which leaves Tatum and Im all cool with that outcome. No Duke player has ever been a MVP and Im all for it happening this year.


Nope. I guess you missed it but Tatum is now out of the MVP race after the Celtics beat the 12th place Raptors last night by 2 points without him.


If we forget team results, he's stratosphere away from Jokic.

https://stathead.com/tiny/Co1xr
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1558 » by BelgradeNugget » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:02 pm

sam_I_am wrote:
BelgradeNugget wrote:
Sgt Major wrote:

Quite the opposite - in fact that shows how different he is compared to the rest of the pack. While they're all at the same level when it comes to inconsistency and/or injury-proneness, he's an outlier and the strongest, most consistent guy on the planet that just keeps getting better and better.


And just to add about the level of his play, he is first player since Wilt, that you don't have to use "since Wilt" anymore to describe his accomplishments.

From SI

"The Joker has likely earned this award for the third straight season in a row, and even with some incredible individual efforts around the league, Jokić may run away with MVP by the end of the year.

Denver currently has a 125.4 offensive rating with Joker on the floor; that’s nearly eight points per 100 possessions better than Boston’s overall No. 1 offense. With Jokić on the court this season, the Nuggets have a better offense than the 2017 Warriors Hamptons Five lineup.

Joker is both individually dominant out of basically any offensive action—be it isolations, post-ups, rolling to the hoop—while also significantly improving the play of those around him. No player in the league comes close to matching that current combination. (Seriously, per CTG, Jokić is in the 100th percentile in overall on/off difference; in the 99th percentile in effective field goal percentage on/off difference; and in the 95th percentile in defensive on/off difference. The Nuggets go from championship contender to “our most untrustworthy family member is being forced to babysit because of an unforeseen emergency, and now the kids are eating ice cream for dinner” whenever Jokic rests.)"


From The Ringer

"The case for Nikola Jokic’s third straight MVP is a choose your own adventure.

Jokic is not only third in true shooting percentage (69.0 percent) despite dunking the ball just 12 times all season, but he’s also first in true shooting percentage among all players in NBA history who’ve put up at least 15 shots per game. Over half of Jokic’s shots are away from the rim. Think about it too hard and your brain will become putty. On direct actions, among all players who’ve completed at least 100 of them, Jokic ranks first in isolation, second in the post (shout-out to Domantas Sabonis), and fourth as the ball handler in a pick-and-roll. Great things happen for the Nuggets when Aaron Gordon sets a screen:

Are you into catchall advanced metrics? Jokic ranks or is tied for first in PER, win shares, BPM, VORP, estimated plus/minus, and FiveThirtyEight’s total RAPTOR. He’s third in ESPN’s real plus/minus.

The Nuggets register a plus-11.3 net rating with Jokic. The closest All-Stars to Jokic’s number are Joel Embiid and Jayson Tatum, at 8.8 and 9.1, respectively. Denver also has the best offense in the NBA, which is nice. Dig deeper. Their attack is the most efficient in league history with Jokic (123.4 points per 100 possessions) and significantly worse than the intentionally terrible Rockets (more on them later) when he sits.[/b]"


Does this speak of how level of his play is above everybody else?

He is 0.1 assist shy of averaging triple double.

25.1/11.0/9.9 on 62.6%/37.2%/82.1%

And the most scary thing - he is increasing the level of his play every month.
His basic box-score splits for the month of January

23.7/11.1/11.1 on 66.7%/52.9%/88.9% - no this is not mistake.


So Jokic will probably be MVP again. So why is it so likely he gets knocked out of playoffs by second round? Because defense is important to winning too.

He is ranked 240th overall in defensive rating. He is ranked 48 in defensive win shares this season. Embiid and Giannis are ranked 1 and 3 in defensive win shares in comparison. Even Curry is ranked higher. Larry Bird is ranked 30th all time in NBA defensive win shares.

It is more likely he wins it all than gets knocked out of playoffs by second round. You know why? Because defense is important to winning too. Funny thing with Jokic's defense is this. When some defensive stat lists him as terrible, it is proof how bad he is. If stat lists him as great it is proof how bad stat is. So let's look

DEFRTG Jokic is 240th - Jokic terrible
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

Defensive LeBron - 27th - bad stat
https://www.bball-index.com/lebron-database/

10th in defensive win shares (I don't know where did you find your data)- Jokic good - terrible stat
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_leaders.html

Defensive Raptor - 3rd - terrible stat, destroy database and don't mention it ever again
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

Defensive box Plus/Minus - 1st - aaaaaaaaa, my mind will explode
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_leaders.html

But let's say his individual defense is terrible. Can they built good defense around him? Let me see, Nuggets are 17th in the league in DEFRTG. Not enough to win it all. But, since 08/12/2022 they are 7th. Half the of the season. With new players KCP, Brown, two players (Murray, MPJ) coming back from injury they are improving.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?DateFrom=12/08/2022&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

Oh, did I mention that their starting lineup is 4th best among all lineups with more then 200 mins (20 lineups) in DEFRTG
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*200&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

Also they have the best defensive rating in clutch (20 games - 89 minutes)
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/clutch-advanced?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

So yes defense wins championship and Nuggets have good enough defense, with historically dominant offense to win it all.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1559 » by Genjuro » Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:15 am

sam_I_am wrote:So Jokic will probably be MVP again. So why is it so likely he gets knocked out of playoffs by second round? Because defense is important to winning too.


He made it to the second round with a starting backcourt formed by Facundo Campazzo and Austin Rivers. So I wouldn't get my hopes up too high if I were you.
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Re: NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2) 

Post#1560 » by ty 4191 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:26 am

No Jokic again tonight.

Games missed this season:
Tatum: 3
Jokic: 6
Giannis: 11
Embiid: 12
Curry: 15
Durant: 6
Mitchell: 8

Draftkings NBA MVP Odds as of right now:

Jokic: -105 (20/21)
Doncic: +430
Tatum: +700
Embiid: +800
Giannis: +1100
Morant: +3000
Curry: +4000
Mitchell: +6000

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