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Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash?

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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#261 » by deck » Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:22 am

load management wrote:
shefcurry wrote:
load management wrote:yes quite similar to cash in the sense that you can finalize a transaction instantly without a middleman, except you wouldn't have to fly to a different country with a briefcase full of it. It gets transferred digitally! But that is just one tiny aspect about the Blockchain related to the specific "currency" use case. There is a lot to learn!

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You're right. It's a lot like flying with a briefcase of cash. Here are the similarities:

1. If someone steals your briefcase, you're SOL and have zero recource. Just like crypto
2. You still have to convert the cash from your currency a local currency when you get to the foreign country, because the grocery store and gas station won't accept your foreign cash.
3. You have to find someone willing and able to accept a briefcase of cash and convert it to the local currency, which most reputable places won't do.
4. For someone to convert the currency, they're gonna take a cut.
5. The person converting your briefcase of foreign cash is probably operating outside the law and could be shady as f*ck. They might just choose to help themselves the cash in your briefcase (cough... FTX...).
5. If you're moving large sums of money between countries in a briefcase of cash, you're probably committing a crime.

This is not progress.


I have no skin in the game, but I am learning because blockchain is here to stay and most big companies and governments are adopting it. It does seem like those with the most animosity are the least educated.

1) There is risk. Know what you are doing what is necessary to protect your assets. There are billions of dollars worth of crypto sitting safely in cold wallets. Recourse will come with regulation and mass adoption.
2) This is true but you can do this with the click of a button. Just be smart about which currency you plan to trade with so the exchange is available.
3) Same as above - Just dont use a currency that is not widely accepted.
4) All services cost you...
5) That is up to the governments to decide. More regulation will help with adoption. Too much will stifle innovation
6) Most widely accepted currencies have a public digital ledger. Transaction using Eth, Sol Bitcoin etc are completely transparent.

Not a testament to the current state of the tech. It is the wild west right now but that should change.


I take exception to the bolded statement above. I have animosity with crypto because I understand it at a decent level. And more importantly, I understand how corporations use technology to subvert the average person to earn profits. It's funny because you are basically acknowledging this in your post by noting how big corporations and governments will adopt it. My animosity doesn't stem from whether a currency that can transact across borders is good or bad (which ironically is not even a big problem that needs to be solved), my animosity stems from the fact that usage of that currency, and all the other bullsh*t like web3 that comes with it, is an absolute dystopia for the average person. And I get super annoyed when the narrative is instead touted as somehow good for the average person.

You will hear me repeat over and over again in these conversations that a low trust environment (public block chains) are a low privacy environment. This is a very important concept to understand. In order for crypto currencies to work, the details of the transactions written to the chain must be publicly readable and immutable. Imagine a future world where crypto currencies do become a medium of exchange, and every transaction that you as an individual perform are now publicly readable to everyone in the world. Yes, we can hide our identity behind metamask, but this is clearly no better than the current world where our transnational identity is centralized with a bank, or with google, or with paypal. And everyone advocating that you keep your digital wallet in cold storage off of an exchange or a centralized entity? All it takes is for someone get you to transact with them once, and now your entire history of transactions from that wallet can be traced back.

Crypto is a hammer looking for a nail, and every nail it successfully strikes will mean less privacy, more security risks, and more control handed over to corporations. And the corporations you are handing control over to are providing less services, and generally charging more than the current banking industry today. I have no love for the big banks, but they at least provide me with banking services. Crypto provides me only with peer to peer transactions, and with zero safe guards if someone compromises my wallet and takes all my money.

All that said, crypto as a speculative investment is still interesting and compelling. Just recognize it for what it is; a grift by the uber wealthy to wrangle even more control and money away from the average person. And if you view it in this light, just remember, it's not profit unless you sell at the right time.
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#262 » by deck » Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:42 am

load management wrote:
KL78192020 wrote:
load management wrote:don't leave it on an exchange...

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So similar to hiding cash under your mattress because you don't trust banks. Yea doesn't sound like a great use case for anything in the future, other than pure speculation to make a buck.
yes quite similar to cash in the sense that you can finalize a transaction instantly without a middleman, except you wouldn't have to fly to a different country with a briefcase full of it. It gets transferred digitally! But that is just one tiny aspect about the Blockchain related to the specific "currency" use case. There is a lot to learn!

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This is not correct. There is a middleman. That middleman in the case of a Proof of Work block chain is the organization burning electricity trying to calculate the next hash on chain. In the case of Proof of Stake, that middleman is a holder of the respective currency staking their coins to form consensus on the next block written to the chain.

In either case, that middleman is charging you money, and providing less service than something equivalent like paypal does already today.
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#263 » by thunderforce » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:25 am

Bitcoin is the future because there is only 21 million of them and no humans will or can make more . Can anyone tell me how many US dollars are out there at any given time , or how many they are printing ? All dollars are controlled by governments and they are controlled by humans and humans are and can be corrupt . I think El Salvador is going to become one of the richest countries in the world because they adopted Bitcoin as a currency , and the rest of the world will follow .
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#264 » by brownbobcat » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:55 am

thunderforce wrote:Bitcoin is the future because there is only 21 million of them and no humans will or can make more . Can anyone tell me how many US dollars are out there at any given time , or how many they are printing ? All dollars are controlled by governments and they are controlled by humans and humans are and can be corrupt . I think El Salvador is going to become one of the richest countries in the world because they adopted Bitcoin as a currency , and the rest of the world will follow .

Suppose I owned a rock, a special rock of which only 1 exists in the world. Does it make sense that I should control all wealth in the world because I own 100% of the supply of that rock?

Blockchain has useful applications, I'm not convinced that a purely blockchain currency is one of them. Speculative ownership like the suggestion above isn't exactly convincing either. What logical reason is there for El Salvador to possess a greater degree of economic power simply by controlling a finite supply of an arbitrary construct? Many things are finite - why not helium instead of Bitcoin?
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#265 » by KL78192020 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:15 am

brownbobcat wrote:
thunderforce wrote:Bitcoin is the future because there is only 21 million of them and no humans will or can make more . Can anyone tell me how many US dollars are out there at any given time , or how many they are printing ? All dollars are controlled by governments and they are controlled by humans and humans are and can be corrupt . I think El Salvador is going to become one of the richest countries in the world because they adopted Bitcoin as a currency , and the rest of the world will follow .

Suppose I owned a rock, a special rock of which only 1 exists in the world. Does it make sense that I should control all wealth in the world because I own 100% of the supply of that rock?

Blockchain has useful applications, I'm not convinced that a purely blockchain currency is one of them. Speculative ownership like the suggestion above isn't exactly convincing either. What logical reason is there for El Salvador to possess a greater degree of economic power simply by controlling a finite supply of an arbitrary construct? Many things are finite - why not helium instead of Bitcoin?


Pretty much.

Litecoin, Cardano, Solana, also all have limited supply why aren't they the future. Why can't someone else just create a new crypto with limited supply?
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#266 » by canz55 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:02 pm

I'm not a financial expert but I know that our Canadian dollars will be inflated and debased, like every other sovereign-backed currency unit the world over. That is 100 percent certain.

The wrong amount of Bitcoin to own as part of your average financial portfolio is 0%. That's all I'm going to say.

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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#267 » by refshateRaps » Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:39 pm

refshateRaps wrote:DOGE looking absolutely coiled here coming off the Sam Bankman Frie-mason & co. sick public ritual scare event.

Fully expect groomed insider Elon Freemuskon to take DOGE mainstream this year with twitter ties.

Just my thoughts, not advice....

But guaranteed to age far-far-far better then ones favorite controlled influencer who sold out to the club or a contract or were groomed young to reap rewards by deceiving the masses.

Success to all my RealGm brothers & sisters in 2023!!



My view is DOGE was free BIG money under .10.... Not much longer.

Good look to All here
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#268 » by DelAbbot » Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:43 pm

KL78192020 wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:
thunderforce wrote:Bitcoin is the future because there is only 21 million of them and no humans will or can make more . Can anyone tell me how many US dollars are out there at any given time , or how many they are printing ? All dollars are controlled by governments and they are controlled by humans and humans are and can be corrupt . I think El Salvador is going to become one of the richest countries in the world because they adopted Bitcoin as a currency , and the rest of the world will follow .

Suppose I owned a rock, a special rock of which only 1 exists in the world. Does it make sense that I should control all wealth in the world because I own 100% of the supply of that rock?

Blockchain has useful applications, I'm not convinced that a purely blockchain currency is one of them. Speculative ownership like the suggestion above isn't exactly convincing either. What logical reason is there for El Salvador to possess a greater degree of economic power simply by controlling a finite supply of an arbitrary construct? Many things are finite - why not helium instead of Bitcoin?


Pretty much.

Litecoin, Cardano, Solana, also all have limited supply why aren't they the future. Why can't someone else just create a new crypto with limited supply?

The USD is backed by world's biggest economy and world's biggest military.

What is any cryptocurrency backed by? Tom Brady?
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#269 » by canz55 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:55 pm

DelAbbot wrote:
KL78192020 wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:Suppose I owned a rock, a special rock of which only 1 exists in the world. Does it make sense that I should control all wealth in the world because I own 100% of the supply of that rock?

Blockchain has useful applications, I'm not convinced that a purely blockchain currency is one of them. Speculative ownership like the suggestion above isn't exactly convincing either. What logical reason is there for El Salvador to possess a greater degree of economic power simply by controlling a finite supply of an arbitrary construct? Many things are finite - why not helium instead of Bitcoin?


Pretty much.

Litecoin, Cardano, Solana, also all have limited supply why aren't they the future. Why can't someone else just create a new crypto with limited supply?

The USD is backed by world's biggest economy and world's biggest military.

What is any cryptocurrency backed by? Tom Brady?
The US dollar has lost 96% of it's value since 1913.

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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#270 » by brownbobcat » Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:59 pm

canz55 wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:
KL78192020 wrote:
Pretty much.

Litecoin, Cardano, Solana, also all have limited supply why aren't they the future. Why can't someone else just create a new crypto with limited supply?

The USD is backed by world's biggest economy and world's biggest military.

What is any cryptocurrency backed by? Tom Brady?
The US dollar has lost 96% of it's value since 1913.

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And yet, it's doing just fine as the de facto global currency. If I didn't know better, I'd say it's almost like currency has no intrinsic value - huh. Tell you what, that's ain't never gonna happen to my special 1-of-1 rock.
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#271 » by DelAbbot » Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:05 pm

canz55 wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:
KL78192020 wrote:
Pretty much.

Litecoin, Cardano, Solana, also all have limited supply why aren't they the future. Why can't someone else just create a new crypto with limited supply?

The USD is backed by world's biggest economy and world's biggest military.

What is any cryptocurrency backed by? Tom Brady?
The US dollar has lost 96% of it's value since 1913.

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Lost value compared to hard assets.

Cryptocurrency is not a hard asset.
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#272 » by canz55 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:14 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
canz55 wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:The USD is backed by world's biggest economy and world's biggest military.

What is any cryptocurrency backed by? Tom Brady?
The US dollar has lost 96% of it's value since 1913.

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And yet, it's doing just fine as the de facto global currency. If I didn't know better, I'd say it's almost like currency has no intrinsic value - huh. Tell you what, that's ain't never gonna happen to my special 1-of-1 rock.
What does it matter if it's the defacto global currency? What does that have to do with anything?
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#273 » by canz55 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:18 pm

DelAbbot wrote:
canz55 wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:The USD is backed by world's biggest economy and world's biggest military.

What is any cryptocurrency backed by? Tom Brady?
The US dollar has lost 96% of it's value since 1913.

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Lost value compared to hard assets.

Cryptocurrency is not a hard asset.
That is a much more interesting debate that I'm happy to have - much more interesting than " the USD is backed by the largest economy and a huge military", which is a baffling statement and proves nothing, especially when it has to deal with how the value of money is measured over time.
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#274 » by Johnny Bball » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:23 pm

DelAbbot wrote:
KL78192020 wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:Suppose I owned a rock, a special rock of which only 1 exists in the world. Does it make sense that I should control all wealth in the world because I own 100% of the supply of that rock?

Blockchain has useful applications, I'm not convinced that a purely blockchain currency is one of them. Speculative ownership like the suggestion above isn't exactly convincing either. What logical reason is there for El Salvador to possess a greater degree of economic power simply by controlling a finite supply of an arbitrary construct? Many things are finite - why not helium instead of Bitcoin?


Pretty much.

Litecoin, Cardano, Solana, also all have limited supply why aren't they the future. Why can't someone else just create a new crypto with limited supply?

The USD is backed by world's biggest economy and world's biggest military.

What is any cryptocurrency backed by? Tom Brady?


The US federal reserve has plans to, if required, and has more recently disussing issuing their own US dollar cryto to reign in bad actors and make enforcing sanctions more thorough. The US Fed can just destroy the rest with a very easy decision.
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#275 » by brownbobcat » Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:03 pm

canz55 wrote:The US dollar has lost 96% of it's value since 1913.

canz55 wrote:What does it matter if it's the defacto global currency? What does that have to do with anything?

Currency is inherently an artificial construct, it has no intrinsic value. That means it's unnecessary for it to have "fixed value" nor would it even be possible anyway. "Value" is relative since the world is radically different in 2022 vs. 1913. The fact that a huge portion of the world continues to operate in a stable fashion using USD is more relevant than any meaningless determination of value.

It isn't a flawless system or immune from collapse, but it's the best one so far and using inflation alone as a sole arbiter of whether a currency works is just dumb.

canz55 wrote:That is a much more interesting debate that I'm happy to have - much more interesting than " the USD is backed by the largest economy and a huge military", which is a baffling statement and proves nothing, especially when it has to deal with how the value of money is measured over time.

Fiat currency is dependent on the authority of the issuing state. As it turns out, a huge economy and huge military are very important to maintaining a state's authority. Didn't you ever wonder why people use US dollars and not Zimbabwean dollars?
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#276 » by wegotthabeet » Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:26 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
canz55 wrote:The US dollar has lost 96% of it's value since 1913.

canz55 wrote:What does it matter if it's the defacto global currency? What does that have to do with anything?

Currency is inherently an artificial construct, it has no intrinsic value. That means it's unnecessary for it to have "fixed value" nor would it even be possible anyway. "Value" is relative since the world is radically different in 2022 vs. 1913. The fact that a huge portion of the world continues to operate in a stable fashion using USD is more relevant than any meaningless determination of value.

It isn't a flawless system or immune from collapse, but it's the best one so far and using inflation alone as a sole arbiter of whether a currency works is just dumb.

canz55 wrote:That is a much more interesting debate that I'm happy to have - much more interesting than " the USD is backed by the largest economy and a huge military", which is a baffling statement and proves nothing, especially when it has to deal with how the value of money is measured over time.

Fiat currency is dependent on the authority of the issuing state. As it turns out, a huge economy and huge military are very important to maintaining a state's authority. Didn't you ever wonder why people use US dollars and not Zimbabwean dollars?


the point i think he's trying to make is that no one can simply hold 100% of their wealth/$/assets in any fiat currency over an extended period of time without it being debased. $100 will always be worth less next year and the year after and so on.

the better question is does fiat $ need to be inflationary? if so why?
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#277 » by canz55 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:12 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
canz55 wrote:The US dollar has lost 96% of it's value since 1913.

canz55 wrote:What does it matter if it's the defacto global currency? What does that have to do with anything?

Currency is inherently an artificial construct, it has no intrinsic value. That means it's unnecessary for it to have "fixed value" nor would it even be possible anyway. "Value" is relative since the world is radically different in 2022 vs. 1913. The fact that a huge portion of the world continues to operate in a stable fashion using USD is more relevant than any meaningless determination of value.

It isn't a flawless system or immune from collapse, but it's the best one so far and using inflation alone as a sole arbiter of whether a currency works is just dumb.

canz55 wrote:That is a much more interesting debate that I'm happy to have - much more interesting than " the USD is backed by the largest economy and a huge military", which is a baffling statement and proves nothing, especially when it has to deal with how the value of money is measured over time.

Fiat currency is dependent on the authority of the issuing state. As it turns out, a huge economy and huge military are very important to maintaining a state's authority. Didn't you ever wonder why people use US dollars and not Zimbabwean dollars?
I'm afraid I don't understand the point you're trying to make. You're saying that it's better to own USD over a third world African fiat? I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

What on earth does that have to do with Bitcoin as a digital asset? Also, I don't see in your reply anything that addresses monetary inflation and currency debasement.

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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#278 » by brownbobcat » Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:38 pm

canz55 wrote:I'm afraid I don't understand the point you're trying to make. You're saying that it's better to own USD over a third world African fiat? I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

You asked why it's relevant that the US is the world's largest economy and its strongest military power, and why it matters if USD is the de facto currency. I answered. Fiat currency, like pretty much any currency, is intrinsically worthless. Its value stems from a collective belief that it is a stable and useful medium of exchange - that belief is inherently tied to the power of the United States.

canz55 wrote:What on earth does that have to do with Bitcoin as a digital asset? Also, I don't see in your reply anything that addresses monetary inflation and currency debasement.

Currency debasement doesn't matter as much as you think it does. If it did, then the system would've collapsed long ago. It hasn't, despite losing "96% of it's value" per your claim. Money is a medium of exchange, banking is the system by which people facilitate temporal transactions. You're not meant to keep a physical dollar under your mattress. A currency with a fixed nominal volume would be just as useless - you'd have perpetual deflation instead and I also don't see how it works in a framework of economic growth. Yes, you can obviously construct a currency according to whatever arbitrary parameters you want and build in moderate increases in money supply.

You're losing sight of the utility of money - its primary purpose is to facilitate an exchange of goods and services, not to have value itself.
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#279 » by brownbobcat » Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:47 pm

wegotthabeet wrote:the point i think he's trying to make is that no one can simply hold 100% of their wealth/$/assets in any fiat currency over an extended period of time without it being debased. $100 will always be worth less next year and the year after and so on.

Those are 2 very different things you are conflating. No one should be holding all of their assets in cash of any currency. Having your assets denominated in USD is a separate matter and no, it does not equate to debasement.

wegotthabeet wrote:the better question is does fiat $ need to be inflationary? if so why?

Complicated question. In a framework of zero economic growth, it would seem unnecessary. However, that's not the case. Furthermore, the global economy is not a homogenous closed system - it contains many systems within that grow and contract at different rates.
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Re: Semi OT: Anyone lose money in the crypto crash? 

Post#280 » by canz55 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:19 am

brownbobcat wrote:
canz55 wrote:I'm afraid I don't understand the point you're trying to make. You're saying that it's better to own USD over a third world African fiat? I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

You asked why it's relevant that the US is the world's largest economy and its strongest military power, and why it matters if USD is the de facto currency. I answered. Fiat currency, like pretty much any currency, is intrinsically worthless. Its value stems from a collective belief that it is a stable and useful medium of exchange - that belief is inherently tied to the power of the United States.

canz55 wrote:What on earth does that have to do with Bitcoin as a digital asset? Also, I don't see in your reply anything that addresses monetary inflation and currency debasement.

Currency debasement doesn't matter as much as you think it does. If it did, then the system would've collapsed long ago. It hasn't, despite losing "96% of it's value" per your claim. Money is a medium of exchange, banking is the system by which people facilitate temporal transactions. You're not meant to keep a physical dollar under your mattress. A currency with a fixed nominal volume would be just as useless - you'd have perpetual deflation instead and I also don't see how it works in a framework of economic growth. Yes, you can obviously construct a currency according to whatever arbitrary parameters you want and build in moderate increases in money supply.

You're losing sight of the utility of money - its primary purpose is to facilitate an exchange of goods and services, not to have value itself.
Forgive me but this reads like you're having a debate with yourself. It has absolutely nothing to do with a) a monetary system that is based on credit and inflation and b) how Bitcoin is or isn't perceived as an asset in relation to 'a'.

On a sidenote, debasement is actually very important. Without it, it wouldn't be possible to pay for wars, or social entitlements like pensions etc.

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