The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10

[WarriorGM]

Maybe but he was still not the caliber of what he become later or what Hakeem or Duncan were before 1994 or 2003,a huge reason why the warriors odds was low

Then it is to Curry's credit he improved as much as he did in that time frame.

True but this is not the point.The point is why the odds were low before the 2015 season.If the media would know at this time he would be a MVP caliber player,the odds of the warriors would been much higher.The 2015 title odds have nothing to do with the Warriors supporting cast....

The odds are a historical record of the view of the team at the time that is not contaminated with after-the-fact biases. If the odds are not about how that team was perceived then you are free to explain what they are.

The odds are also evidence that Curry is underestimated. I would also say he continues to be underestimated even now.

[Blame Rasho]

It is always funny seeing the silly hissy fits WarriorGM posts when talking about Curry. Compared to all time greats he lacks all nba nods( in particular all nba 1sts teams) and finals mvp hardware. He make makes all the other excuses for that,but they are just that excuses. He talks about vegas betting odds as if that is a real thing that people look at, so if that is the case why don’t we look at the times the warriors didn’t make the playoffs. It has happened far too often for such an elite player / top 10 player. People knock KG and McGrady for not advancing in the 1st round but how about not even making the playoffs. Anyways awaiting a petulant response.

[PistolPeteJR]

No to either at the moment. Still have time of course to climb.

[WarriorGM]

It is always funny seeing the silly hissy fits WarriorGM posts when talking about Curry. Compared to all time greats he lacks all nba nods( in particular all nba 1sts teams) and finals mvp hardware. He make makes all the other excuses for that,but they are just that excuses. He talks about vegas betting odds as if that is a real thing that people look at, so if that is the case why don’t we look at the times the warriors didn’t make the playoffs. He has happened far too often for such an elite player to 10 player. People knock KG and McGrady for not advancing in the 1st round but how about not even making the playoffs. Anyways awaiting a petulant response.

I don't base my conclusions on media awards determined by network lackeys like Rachel Nichols especially when there are past instances where pressure was exerted to change the choices. Moreso when the choices in hindsight look ridiculous and more the result of a popularity contest than results. Curry not being All-Star or All-NBA in 2013 for example looks silly.

I'm sorry for you if you do.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

I see a chance where Giannis actually slides back on these lists as he ages kind of like Howard. People will forget how great they were in their primes if they have a few years after their athleticism fails them.

[Myth]

Naming the top 2 for each position is not the same as naming the top 10. This is just a way of excluding multiple centers that are worthy of being in the top 10 even though a majority of NBA history centers dominated the league.

That said, I have Curry just outside of my top 10 in the 11-13 range, and Giannis in the 15-20 range with room to move up. Both are excellent, so we don't need to make up restrictions of the top 10 to give them praise.

[Lalouie]

to be a TOP10 GOAT (i think all top10s are goats in their own way), MY last criteria is "who has the biggest legacy". who contributed the most to the game,,,,,,because you can forget everything that requires era comparisons. the one thing that traverses simple hard numbers is the legacy they leave behind.

and if i go by your thread TITLE - "all time top10", i think that overrides position as a criteria. if it's "by position" then say "by position".

so not going by position and in no special order
russell,,,wilt,,,kareem,,,oscar,,,magic,,,bird,,,drJ,,,mj,,,lebron,,,
and you can pick between kobe, shaq, west, curry

i hated leaving west out but by my criteria he had the least resume (mr.clutch and the logo are not enough imo)
i don't care for lebron but he's had a massive presense in the millenium
giannis does cut it based on that as well. he'd have to add a couple of rings to make me feel his athleticism is enuf to get into the club because everyone else has more than just skills and numbers

if by position
kareem, russell
tim, giannis
bird, drJ
mj, kobe
magic, oscar

You bring up a good point about legacy.

Is it fair to ask if Julius Erwing's legacy of using an athletic playing style to attack the rim has been overshadowed by Michael Jordan? And if Oscar Robertson's legacy has been overshadowed by Russell Westbrook averaging a triple-double in four separate seasons? Steph Curry may now have a larger legacy than both Oscar and Julius.

The reason I am trying to interject position into this discussion is because the playing environment in the NBA has favored the big man for the majority of its existence. One could make a case for having 7 big men in the Top 10: Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan and KG, which only leaves 3 spots for the others. Yet some of these older players are not very portable into the present and may not even be better than Jokic today.

julius's legacy is unmatched. he gave basketball it's "voice". that is he gave basketball the dunk. the dunk gave basketball it's manner of expression. every player since drJ owes julius their gratitude. all the posing we see, all the hilites. drJ gave all the players permission.

drJ - the dunk

bill - explanation not necessary

wilt - explanation not necessary

kareem - basketball's first "teen idol". career at every level of the game. the sky hook most talked about shot.

bird/magic - rescued the nba

mj - it's mj

oscar - similar to kareem and the first hs>college>pro star.
lebron before lebron. first player i recall of whom the word "skillset" had meaning.

lebron - megastar of millenium

their gift to basketball was of their own making. no qualifiers or nuanced parsing, unbound by "eras"

btw, even though i have curry in the waiting room, i think his contribution to the 3
is overrated, as i have seen several threads about who has contributed more curry or harden. basketball reference shows curry's value to the 3 as being in line with what was already trending. the REAL bump came in '94. people are just fascinated by his deep 3s

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

[Vox Populi]

Agreed about the others but I have to push back on these two.

julius's legacy is unmatched. he gave basketball it's "voice". that is he gave basketball the dunk. the dunk gave basketball it's manner of expression. every player since drJ owes julius their gratitude. all the posing we see, all the hilites. drJ gave all the players permission.

drJ - the dunk

oscar - similar to kareem and the first hs>college>pro star.

Julius Erwing did not give basketball the dunk.

If the NCAA is to be believed, Bob "Foothills" Kurland is credited with the first dunk in college basketball history. This happened in 1944, 5 years before the first ever NBA season and 6 years before Julius was even born.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2018-07-26/story-behind-first-known-dunk-college-basketball-history

Watch on YouTube

Julius raised the bar when he came on the scene with his high flying acrobatics and playing above the rim. That bar was subsequently raised even further by Michael Jordan.

oscar - similar to kareem and the first hs>college>pro star.

I do not understand what this means. Could you please elaborate?

Oscar Robertson's main legacy was the triple-double. He came real close to having three other triple-double seasons. This has been overshadowed by Russell Westbrook averaging a triple-double in four separate seasons. Most people consider Jerry West a slightly better player than Oscar Robertson.

[dhsilv2]

Trying to build a list of best players from "positions" that don't even reflect how the game is played is just silly.

[Vox Populi]

Trying to build a list of best players from "positions" that don't even reflect how the game is played is just silly.

Who are your best two from each position though?

[Bornstellar]

The case for Curry is very simple.

Name the greatest NBA team. The Warriors.
Who is the greatest player on that team? Curry.

One can go into other details but the above alone should be sufficient.

Any top ten list that does not have Curry on it will be a joke. It would be like making a list of the top 10 100 meter dash sprinters in history and not having Usain Bolt on it.

Interesting that the greatest player on that team could only manage 1 FMVP in 4 tries.

Sorry, one FMVP is not top 10 material

[Vox Populi]

The case for Curry is very simple.

Name the greatest NBA team. The Warriors.
Who is the greatest player on that team? Curry.

One can go into other details but the above alone should be sufficient.

Any top ten list that does not have Curry on it will be a joke. It would be like making a list of the top 10 100 meter dash sprinters in history and not having Usain Bolt on it.

Interesting that the greatest player on that team could only manage 1 FMVP in 4 tries.

Sorry, one FMVP is not top 10 material

Fair point.

Others could argue that not being either a Scoring Champion or a DPOTY is also not Top 10 material, could they not?

Who are your top two in each position?

[TheNG]

Top 10 by position:
C: Kareem, Shaq
PF: Russell, Duncan
SF: Bird, Wilt
SG: Jordan, Hakeem
PG: Magic, LeBron

[Vox Populi]

Top 10 by position:
C: Kareem, Shaq
PF: Russell, Duncan
SF: Bird, Wilt
SG: Jordan, Hakeem
PG: Magic, LeBron

No KG, Giannis or Jokic?

[dhsilv2]

Trying to build a list of best players from "positions" that don't even reflect how the game is played is just silly.

Who are your best two from each position though?

I can't answer that because players aren't positions. People call Duncan who's natural skillset is that of a center, a power forward. We call Bird a small forward when he was a natural power forward. Curry is a small guard, he doesn't run the point at all. Lebron runs the point but he's a forward. Magic who's the same height is called a point guard. A guy like MJ, Leonard, PG, Pippen....those guys could be called any of 3.

It's a meaningless term we use to teach children the game and it has no real context when watch higher level basketball.

[Lalouie]

Agreed about the others but I have to push back on these two.

julius's legacy is unmatched. he gave basketball it's "voice". that is he gave basketball the dunk. the dunk gave basketball it's manner of expression. every player since drJ owes julius their gratitude. all the posing we see, all the hilites. drJ gave all the players permission.

drJ - the dunk

oscar - similar to kareem and the first hs>college>pro star.

Julius Erwing did not give basketball the dunk.

If the NCAA is to be believed, Bob "Foothills" Kurland is credited with the first dunk in college basketball history. This happened in 1944, 5 years before the first ever NBA season and 6 years before Julius was even born.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2018-07-26/story-behind-first-known-dunk-college-basketball-history

Julius raised the bar when he came on the scene with his high flying acrobatics and playing above the rim. That bar was subsequently raised even further by Michael Jordan.

oscar - similar to kareem and the first hs>college>pro star.

I do not understand what this means. Could you please elaborate?

Oscar Robertson's main legacy was the triple-double. He came real close to having three other triple-double seasons. This has been overshadowed by Russell Westbrook averaging a triple-double in four separate seasons. Most people consider Jerry West a slightly better player than Oscar Robertson.

in regards to the dunk. don't take it literally. drJ gave players permission to express themselves with the dunk. ie, the scowling, the posing, the staring, the taunting. the dunk became an exclamation. and the dunk contest is an example of that.
it's the only subjective proclamation in basketball. well mmmaybe the pass too the pistol, cousy, and magic i guess

oscar was similar to kareem in that notariety followed him at all levels and like kareem, he met or exceded all expectations. the difference between the two was the rings and banners. and kareem became our first teen idol. he came at that time of the 60s. he's the only player wooden ever VISITED to recruit. he was a double page layout on sports illustrated

[Vox Populi]

Trying to build a list of best players from "positions" that don't even reflect how the game is played is just silly.

Who are your best two from each position though?

I can't answer that because players aren't positions. People call Duncan who's natural skillset is that of a center, a power forward. We call Bird a small forward when he was a natural power forward. Curry is a small guard, he doesn't run the point at all. Lebron runs the point but he's a forward. Magic who's the same height is called a point guard. A guy like MJ, Leonard, PG, Pippen....those guys could be called any of 3.

It's a meaningless term we use to teach children the game and it has no real context when watch higher level basketball.

You are not limited to keeping players in the positions listed in the opening post. Blaze your trail. Put them in the positions you feel is best, two per position.

[Impuniti]

Giannis has absolutely zero case for this, it's ridiculous to even mention him. Even if he won another championship, he's still far away from it. The only guy that I can see as a top 10 player before hitting 30 would Lebron, but he's a truly unique case as a player.

[xdrta+]

If the NCAA is to be believed, Bob "Foothills" Kurland is credited with the first dunk in college basketball history. This happened in 1944, 5 years before the first ever NBA season and 6 years before Julius was even born.

That may well have been true for college, but the dunk predated that. Joe Fortenberry is generally credited with inventing the dunk, and it was showcased in the 1936 Olympics which, by decree of Hitler, was played outdoors in the rain on a clay court. Previously, after watching him in Madison Square Garden, a New York Times writer wrote that Fortenberry had the awe-inspiring ability to “pitch the ball downward into the hoop, much like a cafeteria customer dunking a roll in coffee.” And so the word "dunk" itself was born.

[Vox Populi]

If the NCAA is to be believed, Bob "Foothills" Kurland is credited with the first dunk in college basketball history. This happened in 1944, 5 years before the first ever NBA season and 6 years before Julius was even born.

That may well have been true for college, but the dunk predated that. Joe Fortenberry is generally credited with inventing the dunk, and it was showcased in the 1936 Olympics which, by decree of Hitler, was played outdoors in the rain on a clay court. Previously, after watching him in Madison Square Garden, a New York Times writer wrote that Fortenberry had the awe-inspiring ability to “pitch the ball downward into the hoop, much like a cafeteria customer dunking a roll in coffee.” And so the word "dunk" itself was born.

Nice piece of trivia! Thank you for sharing.