Jokic - where does he stand historically

durantbird · Post #1 » by **durantbird** » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:58 pm

How would you rate him currently in the list of top players all time? Lots of Jokic threads lately but I don't think I saw one about this question specifically.

If I'm not mistaken, the last time a top 100 project was done was in 2020, but since then he won two MVPs and he's on the road (?) to win another. In 2020 he was ranked #95.

In the 22' peaks project, his 22' season was ranked #16.

So what's your current rank for him for career?

MyUniBroDavis · Post #2 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:02 am

durantbird wrote:How would you rate him currently in the list of top players all time? Lots of Jokic threads lately but I don't think I saw one about this question specifically.

If I'm not mistaken, the last time a top 100 project was done was in 2020, but since then he won two MVPs and he's on the road (?) to win another. In 2020 he was ranked #95.

In the 22' peaks project, his 22' season was ranked #16.

So what's your current rank for him for career?

I think Jokic’s prime, regular season wise, is one that can stack up to a lot of the really upper tier guys

The one thing is that the jury is still out on his playoff defense, because it hasn’t looking good throughout his prime playoff runs despite him being a solid regular season defender, but there are probably contextual factors there. We still don’t really have a great jokic playoff run but he’s only been in his prime 2 years and was unfortunate with the team and stuff.

dygaction · Post #3 » by **dygaction** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:16 am

Jokic is coming for the offensive GOAT... He has top 10 potential but needs lot of luck and help to get there.

FuShengTHEGreat · Post #4 » by **FuShengTHEGreat** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:37 am

Not his fault with the injuries the Nuggets roster around him have suffered.

But so far winning wise he's like 90s pre injury David Robinson annually before Duncan came.

Winning this year would put him with Moses title wise, but he's more skilled than Moses was imho.

A 2nd title would bring him into 5 Deadly Venoms ((Bill, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq) status.

I hope he ascends to the latter because since D12 never panned out in the 2010s and the league became more guard/forward oriented.....never thought I'd see a Center come along and remotely approach those 5 pillars of greatness.

migya · Post #5 » by **migya** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:19 am

For one or the year peaks he looks good, in a stat inflated era. He just isn't played long enough to be considered top 50 yet.

dygaction · Post #6 » by **dygaction** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:56 am

migya wrote:For one or the year peaks he looks good, in a stat inflated era. He just isn't played long enough to be considered top 50 yet.

I don't think the water is that deep at top 50. There are 15 players in the past winning more than 1 MVP. 8 with 3 or more. Jokic is about to become the 9th. 40 players with 4x 1st team all-nba, and Jokic will be there this season.
Bill Walton is in most top 50, and he played 100 less regular season games than Jokic as of now.
Also for Jokic, it is really not how his stats are inflated, it is he has been the most impactful player three years in a row.

migya · Post #7 » by **migya** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:07 am

dygaction wrote:
migya wrote:For one or the year peaks he looks good, in a stat inflated era. He just isn't played long enough to be considered top 50 yet.

I don't think the water is that deep at top 50. There are 15 players in the past winning more than 1 MVP. 8 with 3 or more. Jokic is about to become the 9th. 40 players with 4x 1st team all-nba, and Jokic will be there this season.
Bill Walton is in most top 50, and he played 100 less regular season games than Jokic as of now.
Also for Jokic, it is really not how his stats are inflated, it is he has been the most impactful player three years in a row.

I don't include Walton in top 50. For peak he is arguably top 20. I don't think accolades mean much, careers must be viewed on numbers and impact. I think Paul Pierce is just in the top 50 and he had a better career than Jokic has so far. Too early.

picko · Post #8 » by **picko** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:24 am

I don't find it particularly interesting to rank guys in the middle of their prime. He's played less than 600 games.

But he has an opportunity to be remembered as a top 10 guy and as one of the best offensive players of all-time. His deficiencies on defense probably limit his capacity to be remembered as a top 5 guy.

Post #9 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:20 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:I think Jokic’s prime, regular season wise, is one that can stack up to a lot of the really upper tier guys

The one thing is that the jury is still out on his playoff defense, because it hasn’t looking good throughout his prime playoff runs despite him being a solid regular season defender, but there are probably contextual factors there. We still don’t really have a great jokic playoff run but he’s only been in his prime 2 years and was unfortunate with the team and stuff.

dygation wrote:Jokic is coming for the offensive GOAT... He has top 10 potential but needs lot of luck and help to get there.

This and this really struck me as the key dimensions of it.

In theory a player could become my GOAT without winning a single championship, but Jokic is really going to convince me the defense isn't a match-up achilles heel.

capfan33 · Post #10 » by **capfan33** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:54 am

Think he'll probably be top-20 when all is said and done, but this is mostly contingent on his defense in the playoffs. Really curious to see him with a good+ defensive lineup next to him with a great defensive big.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #11 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:39 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:I think Jokic’s prime, regular season wise, is one that can stack up to a lot of the really upper tier guys

The one thing is that the jury is still out on his playoff defense, because it hasn’t looking good throughout his prime playoff runs despite him being a solid regular season defender, but there are probably contextual factors there. We still don’t really have a great jokic playoff run but he’s only been in his prime 2 years and was unfortunate with the team and stuff.

dygation wrote:Jokic is coming for the offensive GOAT... He has top 10 potential but needs lot of luck and help to get there.

This and this really struck me as the key dimensions of it.

In theory a player could become my GOAT without winning a single championship, but Jokic is really going to convince me the defense isn't a match-up achilles heel.

I don’t feel thats a given for a lot of guys criteria Tbf

The interesting thing is conceptually while I get why he’s been so attacked on defense in the playoffs, I don’t think it would be an issue at all before the curry era

OhayoKD · Post #12 » by **OhayoKD** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:48 am

He's the best passer of all-time(arguably) and one of history's talented, versatile, and resilient scorers. An easy top 10 candidate(and maybe even more) at basically any other point in history but I have questions about his defensive viability right now that hold him back. There's also the matter of him not having the handles of the very best wings but as we see with bird, that's not necessarily a big demerit.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:I think Jokic’s prime, regular season wise, is one that can stack up to a lot of the really upper tier guys

The one thing is that the jury is still out on his playoff defense, because it hasn’t looking good throughout his prime playoff runs despite him being a solid regular season defender, but there are probably contextual factors there. We still don’t really have a great jokic playoff run but he’s only been in his prime 2 years and was unfortunate with the team and stuff.

dygation wrote:Jokic is coming for the offensive GOAT... He has top 10 potential but needs lot of luck and help to get there.

This and this really struck me as the key dimensions of it.

In theory a player could become my GOAT without winning a single championship, but Jokic is really going to convince me the defense isn't a match-up achilles heel.

I don’t feel thats a given for a lot of guys criteria Tbf

The interesting thing is conceptually while I get why he’s been so attacked on defense in the playoffs, I don’t think it would be an issue at all before the curry era

Pretty much, yeah

70sFan · Post #13 » by **70sFan** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:15 am

dygaction wrote:
migya wrote:For one or the year peaks he looks good, in a stat inflated era. He just isn't played long enough to be considered top 50 yet.

I don't think the water is that deep at top 50. There are 15 players in the past winning more than 1 MVP. 8 with 3 or more. Jokic is about to become the 9th. 40 players with 4x 1st team all-nba, and Jokic will be there this season.
Bill Walton is in most top 50, and he played 100 less regular season games than Jokic as of now.
Also for Jokic, it is really not how his stats are inflated, it is he has been the most impactful player three years in a row.

Most people don't have Walton inside top 50, at least not here.

dygaction · Post #14 » by **dygaction** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:54 am

70sFan wrote:
dygaction wrote:
migya wrote:For one or the year peaks he looks good, in a stat inflated era. He just isn't played long enough to be considered top 50 yet.

I don't think the water is that deep at top 50. There are 15 players in the past winning more than 1 MVP. 8 with 3 or more. Jokic is about to become the 9th. 40 players with 4x 1st team all-nba, and Jokic will be there this season.
Bill Walton is in most top 50, and he played 100 less regular season games than Jokic as of now.
Also for Jokic, it is really not how his stats are inflated, it is he has been the most impactful player three years in a row.

Most people don't have Walton inside top 50, at least not here.

I don't have him either but you get the gist - there is a strong argument depending what you value the most. Walton was in NBA official 50 for 50, 75 for 75, and many other lists like ESPN's recent (#44), Beacherreport #39...

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33297498/the-nba-75th-anniversary-team-ranked-where-76-basketball-legends-check-our-list
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed

MyUniBroDavis · Post #15 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:10 am

dygaction wrote:
70sFan wrote:
dygaction wrote:
I don't think the water is that deep at top 50. There are 15 players in the past winning more than 1 MVP. 8 with 3 or more. Jokic is about to become the 9th. 40 players with 4x 1st team all-nba, and Jokic will be there this season.
Bill Walton is in most top 50, and he played 100 less regular season games than Jokic as of now.
Also for Jokic, it is really not how his stats are inflated, it is he has been the most impactful player three years in a row.

Most people don't have Walton inside top 50, at least not here.

I don't have him either but you get the gist - there is a strong argument depending what you value the most. Walton was in NBA official 50 for 50, 75 for 75, and many other lists like ESPN's recent (#44), Beacherreport #39...

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33297498/the-nba-75th-anniversary-team-ranked-where-76-basketball-legends-check-our-list
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed

Outside of here peak play thats followed by a championship ring is huuuuugely weighted

dygaction · Post #16 » by **dygaction** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:17 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
dygaction wrote:
70sFan wrote:Most people don't have Walton inside top 50, at least not here.

I don't have him either but you get the gist - there is a strong argument depending what you value the most. Walton was in NBA official 50 for 50, 75 for 75, and many other lists like ESPN's recent (#44), Beacherreport #39...

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33297498/the-nba-75th-anniversary-team-ranked-where-76-basketball-legends-check-our-list
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed

Outside of here peak play thats followed by a championship ring is huuuuugely weighted

I also value that a lot like what happened to Wade, Dirk, and Giannis, but Walton's peak/prime and career were all too short in the 70s..

MyUniBroDavis · Post #17 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:19 am

dygaction wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
dygaction wrote:
I don't have him either but you get the gist - there is a strong argument depending what you value the most. Walton was in NBA official 50 for 50, 75 for 75, and many other lists like ESPN's recent (#44), Beacherreport #39...

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33297498/the-nba-75th-anniversary-team-ranked-where-76-basketball-legends-check-our-list
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed

Outside of here peak play thats followed by a championship ring is huuuuugely weighted

I also value that a lot like what happened to Wade, Dirk, and Giannis, but Walton's peak/prime and career were all too short in the 70s..

If one player had three years where they peaked clearly higher than everyone else and won all three years many would consider that player the GOAT

Dutchball97 · Post #18 » by **Dutchball97** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:23 am

I'm pretty confident he'll at least be top 50. I'm often surprised at how many people wouldn't blink twice at putting Giannis in the 20s or 30s already but don't want to even consider Jokic in the top 50. Meanwhile Jokic has 3 less WS and 3 more VORP for his career than Giannis in the regular season despite playing over 100 games and 5k minutes less. I guess that ring weighs very heavily for people.

dygaction · Post #19 » by **dygaction** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:24 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
dygaction wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Outside of here peak play thats followed by a championship ring is huuuuugely weighted

I also value that a lot like what happened to Wade, Dirk, and Giannis, but Walton's peak/prime and career were all too short in the 70s..

If one player had three years where they peaked clearly higher than everyone else and won all three years many would consider that player the GOAT

Are you replying to what I said?

MyUniBroDavis · Post #20 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:25 am

dygaction wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
dygaction wrote:
I also value that a lot like what happened to Wade, Dirk, and Giannis, but Walton's peak/prime and career were all too short in the 70s..

If one player had three years where they peaked clearly higher than everyone else and won all three years many would consider that player the GOAT

Are you replying to what I said?

Yeah