The case for Curry and Giannis in the All-Time Top 10

[LakersLegacy]

2 each position

Magic and Steph
Jordan and Kobe
Bird and LeBron
Duncan and Kareem
Wilt and Shaq

Duncan is a center too but since he can be a forward so can Kareem

[f4p]

You guys over on the comparison board keep saying this but provide zilch in the form of reasoning. Behind West and Oscar? Why? As far as I can see they don't even have a semblance of an argument.

If you can't see a semblance of an argument for Oscar and West over Curry you're gonna need new glasses or something.

Both Oscar and West have better longevity than Curry, they were significantly more consistent year to year and while I'm aware some people are insanely high on Curry's peak, I don't think he was much better than Oscar and West at his peak, if at all. Outside of rings, Curry doesn't have a lot going for him here.

I can’t believe I’m actually about to side with WarriorGM in a debate (especially given how much of a clown show his posts and arguments are), but I don’t really see an argument for Robertson over Curry at all. West is a different story.

i'm not saying i would pick robertson over curry, but oscar was on 6 offenses ranked #1 and 2 offenses ranked #2 in the first 9 years of his career and his TS+ numbers his first 9 years make it look like curry should have practiced shooting some more.

Robertson was a multi skilled player who was the first what I like to call “empty stats player”. He was incredibly skilled in multiple aspects of the game but it never led to team success and there’s a reason for that.

what's the reason?

Oscar had better longevity than Curry? I don’t think what he was during that time frame is as great as people make it out to be. We’re talking about a guy who missed the playoffs in four different seasons during his prime. That is inexcusable.

well, bad news, because curry has missed them 5 times. don't wanna count his age 21 season since oscar started at age 22? ok, then it's 4 to 4. and let's not pretend like the 2012 warriors (13-13 in steph games) or the 2020 warriors (1-4) were about to take over the world with curry playing more. steph basically missed what were going to be down years anyway.

Curry has been very fortunate in his career with the teams he’s had around him, but he proved in 2022 that he could win a championship even without a good supporting cast.

his team had the #1 defense in the league. it can't just all be an offense thing with the supporting cast. the 6th man on the team opened the first 3 games of the playoffs averaging 28.7 ppg on 84 TS%. know how many times in all of nba history that someone has averaged 28+ on 84+ TS% in 3 straight playoff games? twice. lebron in the bubble, and jordan poole. they have a former #1 overall pick being the 4th best player on the team and just playing elite wing defense and popping in 15 ppg when he feels like it. and i haven't mentioned the 2 playoff-tested future hall of famers. that is not a bad supporting cast.

[WarriorGM]

i'm not saying i would pick robertson over curry, but oscar was on 6 offenses ranked #1 and 2 offenses ranked #2 in the first 9 years of his career and his TS+ numbers his first 9 years make it look like curry should have practiced shooting some more.

In a league with less than 10 teams for the majority of them. Considering the perennial champions of the day were the Celtics known for their defense and that Robertson was consistently on losing teams for most of his career the value of offensive rank is further put to the question.

Aren't the higher TS+ numbers just a function of attempting more shot while playing more minutes?

his team had the #1 defense in the league. it can't just all be an offense thing with the supporting cast. the 6th man on the team opened the first 3 games of the playoffs averaging 28.7 ppg on 84 TS%. know how many times in all of nba history that someone has averaged 28+ on 84+ TS% in 3 straight playoff games? twice. lebron in the bubble, and jordan poole. they have a former #1 overall pick being the 4th best player on the team and just playing elite wing defense and popping in 15 ppg when he feels like it. and i haven't mentioned the 2 playoff-tested future hall of famers. that is not a bad supporting cast.

Curry turned around a team with a 15-win record in 2020 and won a championship before two superteams formed at that time. He did similar with a team with a 23-win record in 2012. Let's be real: of all the players in NBA history Curry is one of the most proven players at changing unattractive situations into winning ones. Objectively speaking it should be easier to say Jordan was lucky to have great teammates than it would be to say the same of Curry.

Poole was great in moments. Many of Curry's teammates have a startling tendency to do better than expected. Maybe Poole was especially inspired since Curry without rancor started the playoffs on the bench giving Poole freedom to be a starter without a pall cast over it.

[Vox Populi]

Curry was targeted over and over and over by the likes of LeBron and Harden who are as far as I can tell among the greatest iso attackers of this era. They lost doing that.

The fact remains Curry has been on more top defensive teams than just about any of the recent top players aside from Kawhi and maybe Giannis.

I'm sorry but those teams being top defensive teams is because of Iguodala, Klay, Draymond, Bogut and now Wiggins. It has nothing to do with Curry. They were top defensive teams despite Curry, not because of him. Each of these five guys have been selected to NBA All-Defensive Teams on merit. Klay were Iguodala are All-NBA quality on top of the defense.

Please list the years when those players were All-Defensive. Look up the team rank in defensive rating of the Warriors when Curry missed most of the 2020 season and then in 2021 when he came back. Whatever you may think the data indicates the Warriors have been elite defensively because of Curry not in spite of him. Wiggins has not been selected for All-Defensive as of yet.

This is so wrong. Are you trying to fool me? The Warriors were not better defensively because Curry came back in 2021. They were better because they used different players than the ones they used to tank in 2020. That they had stopped tanking probably matters too.

These are the top 10 in minutes for GSW in 2020. Recognize many stalwarts of defense in here? I only see Draymond, who played 1222 minutes in 2020 compared to 1982 minutes in 2021.

1) Eric Paschall
2) Glen Robinson III
3) Damion Lee
4) Alec Burks
5) Jordan Poole
6) Draymond Green
7) Marquese Chriss
8) D'Angelo Russell
9) Ky Bowman
10) Willie Cauley-Stein

[WarriorGM]

I'm sorry but those teams being top defensive teams is because of Iguodala, Klay, Draymond, Bogut and now Wiggins. It has nothing to do with Curry. They were top defensive teams despite Curry, not because of him. Each of these five guys have been selected to NBA All-Defensive Teams on merit. Klay were Iguodala are All-NBA quality on top of the defense.

Please list the years when those players were All-Defensive. Look up the team rank in defensive rating of the Warriors when Curry missed most of the 2020 season and then in 2021 when he came back. Whatever you may think the data indicates the Warriors have been elite defensively because of Curry not in spite of him. Wiggins has not been selected for All-Defensive as of yet.

Stop it. This is so wrong. The Warriors were not better defensively because Curry came back in 2021. They were better because they used different players than the ones they used to tank in 2020. That they had stopped tanking probably matters too.

These are the top 10 in minutes for GSW in 2020. Recognize many stalwarts of defense in here? I only see Draymond, who played 1222 minutes in 2020 compared to 1982 minutes in 2021.

1) Eric Paschall
2) Glen Robinson III
3) Damion Lee
4) Alec Burks
5) Jordan Poole
6) Draymond Green
7) Marquese Chriss
8) D'Angelo Russell
9) Ky Bowman
10) Willie Cauley-Stein

What is the reason the Warriors weren't tanking? Curry was playing that's why. The firepower Curry brings provides cover for better defensive players who are liabilities offensively. Even with a group of more defensive players without stability on the offensive end a rout usually ensues. Kent Bazemore and Juan Toscano Andersen got more minutes the next year. You thinking of players like them? Conveniently for our purposes they both went to the Lakers afterward. Did they help the defense of that team? Not appreciably. DBPM isn't a particularly reliable metric but it is interesting to see both Bazemore's and Toscano Andersen's DBPM jump the year they played with Curry but fall immediately after leaving to the level it was before playing with Curry.

[Vox Populi]

Please list the years when those players were All-Defensive. Look up the team rank in defensive rating of the Warriors when Curry missed most of the 2020 season and then in 2021 when he came back. Whatever you may think the data indicates the Warriors have been elite defensively because of Curry not in spite of him. Wiggins has not been selected for All-Defensive as of yet.

Stop it. This is so wrong. The Warriors were not better defensively because Curry came back in 2021. They were better because they used different players than the ones they used to tank in 2020. That they had stopped tanking probably matters too.

These are the top 10 in minutes for GSW in 2020. Recognize many stalwarts of defense in here? I only see Draymond, who played 1222 minutes in 2020 compared to 1982 minutes in 2021.

1) Eric Paschall
2) Glen Robinson III
3) Damion Lee
4) Alec Burks
5) Jordan Poole
6) Draymond Green
7) Marquese Chriss
8) D'Angelo Russell
9) Ky Bowman
10) Willie Cauley-Stein

What is the reason the Warriors weren't tanking? Curry was playing that's why. The firepower Curry brings provides cover for better defensive players who are liabilities offensively. Even with a group of more defensive players without stability on the offensive end a rout usually ensues. Kent Bazemore and Juan Toscano Andersen got more minutes the next year. You thinking of players like them? Conveniently for our purposes they both went to the Lakers afterward. Did they help the defense of that team?

I think you should make a poll. In the poll, you could form your conjecture into a question like this.

"Data indicates the Warriors were defensively elite in 2021 because of Stephen Curry. How do you feel?"

- Yes
- No

[WarriorGM]

Stop it. This is so wrong. The Warriors were not better defensively because Curry came back in 2021. They were better because they used different players than the ones they used to tank in 2020. That they had stopped tanking probably matters too.

These are the top 10 in minutes for GSW in 2020. Recognize many stalwarts of defense in here? I only see Draymond, who played 1222 minutes in 2020 compared to 1982 minutes in 2021.

1) Eric Paschall
2) Glen Robinson III
3) Damion Lee
4) Alec Burks
5) Jordan Poole
6) Draymond Green
7) Marquese Chriss
8) D'Angelo Russell
9) Ky Bowman
10) Willie Cauley-Stein

What is the reason the Warriors weren't tanking? Curry was playing that's why. The firepower Curry brings provides cover for better defensive players who are liabilities offensively. Even with a group of more defensive players without stability on the offensive end a rout usually ensues. Kent Bazemore and Juan Toscano Andersen got more minutes the next year. You thinking of players like them? Conveniently for our purposes they both went to the Lakers afterward. Did they help the defense of that team?

I think you should make a poll. In the poll, you could form your conjecture into a question like this.

"Data indicates the Warriors were defensively elite in 2021 because of Stephen Curry. How do you feel?"

- Yes
- No

You can poll all you want but if you have people who don't know how to interpret data it is of little consequence.

[TheLand13]

i'm not saying i would pick robertson over curry, but oscar was on 6 offenses ranked #1 and 2 offenses ranked #2 in the first 9 years of his career and his TS+ numbers his first 9 years make it look like curry should have practiced shooting some more.

In a league with less than 10 teams for the majority of them. Considering the perennial champions of the day were the Celtics known for their defense and that Robertson was consistently on losing teams for most of his career the value of offensive rank is further put to the question.

Aren't the higher TS+ numbers just a function of attempting more shot while playing more minutes?

his team had the #1 defense in the league. it can't just all be an offense thing with the supporting cast. the 6th man on the team opened the first 3 games of the playoffs averaging 28.7 ppg on 84 TS%. know how many times in all of nba history that someone has averaged 28+ on 84+ TS% in 3 straight playoff games? twice. lebron in the bubble, and jordan poole. they have a former #1 overall pick being the 4th best player on the team and just playing elite wing defense and popping in 15 ppg when he feels like it. and i haven't mentioned the 2 playoff-tested future hall of famers. that is not a bad supporting cast.

Curry turned around a team with a 15-win record in 2020 and won a championship before two superteams formed at that time. He did similar with a team with a 23-win record in 2012. Let's be real: of all the players in NBA history Curry is one of the most proven players at changing unattractive situations into winning ones. Objectively speaking it should be easier to say Jordan was lucky to have great teammates than it would be to say the same of Curry.

Poole was great in moments. Many of Curry's teammates have a startling tendency to do better than expected. Maybe Poole was especially inspired since Curry without rancor started the playoffs on the bench giving Poole freedom to be a starter without a pall cast over it.

I'm no longer arguing for Curry's case in this thread. Your arguments are so brain dead that it's actually dissuaded me from being on the same side as you.

Like, are you for real right now? Are higher TS numbers just a function of attempting more shots while playing more minutes? You're meaning to tell me that you don't even know how true shooting works? And you just got done complaining that everyone doesn't understand how advanced stats work? Jesus christ.

[f4p]

it's funny, i meant to type that oscar's TS Add was better than curry's, which kind of seems like what Warriors GM was responding to with the volume comment. on the other hand, Oscar's TS+ his first 9 years is also better than curry's, so it doesn't really matter.

[WarriorGM]

i'm not saying i would pick robertson over curry, but oscar was on 6 offenses ranked #1 and 2 offenses ranked #2 in the first 9 years of his career and his TS+ numbers his first 9 years make it look like curry should have practiced shooting some more.

In a league with less than 10 teams for the majority of them. Considering the perennial champions of the day were the Celtics known for their defense and that Robertson was consistently on losing teams for most of his career the value of offensive rank is further put to the question.

Aren't the higher TS+ numbers just a function of attempting more shot while playing more minutes?

his team had the #1 defense in the league. it can't just all be an offense thing with the supporting cast. the 6th man on the team opened the first 3 games of the playoffs averaging 28.7 ppg on 84 TS%. know how many times in all of nba history that someone has averaged 28+ on 84+ TS% in 3 straight playoff games? twice. lebron in the bubble, and jordan poole. they have a former #1 overall pick being the 4th best player on the team and just playing elite wing defense and popping in 15 ppg when he feels like it. and i haven't mentioned the 2 playoff-tested future hall of famers. that is not a bad supporting cast.

Curry turned around a team with a 15-win record in 2020 and won a championship before two superteams formed at that time. He did similar with a team with a 23-win record in 2012. Let's be real: of all the players in NBA history Curry is one of the most proven players at changing unattractive situations into winning ones. Objectively speaking it should be easier to say Jordan was lucky to have great teammates than it would be to say the same of Curry.

Poole was great in moments. Many of Curry's teammates have a startling tendency to do better than expected. Maybe Poole was especially inspired since Curry without rancor started the playoffs on the bench giving Poole freedom to be a starter without a pall cast over it.

I'm no longer arguing for Curry's case in this thread. Your arguments are so brain dead that it's actually dissuaded me from being on the same side as you.

Like, are you for real right now? Are higher TS numbers just a function of attempting more shots while playing more minutes? You're meaning to tell me that you don't even know how true shooting works? And you just got done complaining that everyone doesn't understand how advanced stats work? Jesus christ.

Let's make it very clear here: when it comes to TS% the true shooting number that is most commonly thought of when true shooting is mentioned Curry has the higher number every season of his career except the one in which Curry played 5 games. One will have to go into esoteric territory to find stuff favoring Robertson where the definitions and the ideas behind them may not be immediately obvious. This can quickly get fraught with relative indicators. A Model T might provide a greater advantage over a horse and buggy relatively speaking than an electric car over a gasoline car, that doesn't mean most people will prefer the performance of a Model T over an electric car.

[TheLand13]

In a league with less than 10 teams for the majority of them. Considering the perennial champions of the day were the Celtics known for their defense and that Robertson was consistently on losing teams for most of his career the value of offensive rank is further put to the question.

Aren't the higher TS+ numbers just a function of attempting more shot while playing more minutes?



Curry turned around a team with a 15-win record in 2020 and won a championship before two superteams formed at that time. He did similar with a team with a 23-win record in 2012. Let's be real: of all the players in NBA history Curry is one of the most proven players at changing unattractive situations into winning ones. Objectively speaking it should be easier to say Jordan was lucky to have great teammates than it would be to say the same of Curry.

Poole was great in moments. Many of Curry's teammates have a startling tendency to do better than expected. Maybe Poole was especially inspired since Curry without rancor started the playoffs on the bench giving Poole freedom to be a starter without a pall cast over it.

I'm no longer arguing for Curry's case in this thread. Your arguments are so brain dead that it's actually dissuaded me from being on the same side as you.

Like, are you for real right now? Are higher TS numbers just a function of attempting more shots while playing more minutes? You're meaning to tell me that you don't even know how true shooting works? And you just got done complaining that everyone doesn't understand how advanced stats work? Jesus christ.

Let's make it very clear here: when it comes to TS% the true shooting number that is most commonly thought of when true shooting is mentioned Curry has the higher number every season of his career except the one in which Curry played 5 games. One will have to go into esoteric territory to find stuff favoring Robertson where the definitions and the ideas behind them may not be immediately obvious. This can quickly get fraught with relative indicators. A Model T might provide a greater advantage over a horse and buggy relatively speaking than an electric car over a gasoline car, that doesn't mean most people will prefer the performance of a Model T over an electric car.

This is the most incoherent and idiotic thing I’ve ever read on this site.

[NO-KG-AI]

The entirety of the top 10 were basically MVP/all NBA first team level from their very early 20's or just after their rookie season and had very long primes, and were pretty healthy and durable until they were 30+.

It's such a hard bar to clear, they almost all have a crap ton of trophies and titles not only because they were so good, but their bar of excellence was for so long as well. The non C's(And evne some of the C's who only get one spot) all have more all NBA first team appearances than Steph and Giannis have all star game appearances.

They both only have 3 top 3 mvp finishes so far.

They have great peaks/primes, but they might have both gotten really rolling too late to be able to stack up the trophy cases some of these guys did just by being phenoms at such a young age. It's hard to catch someone like Magic who comes out of the gate at a star level and is already snatching finals MVPs and averaging near a triple double for the playoffs as a 20 year old. 9 straight years all NBA 1st team, 9 straight years top 3 in MVP voting speaks to a level of dominance and consistency these guys have not been able to put together for that long of a stretch as of yet.

Magic's first 10 seasons he accomplished as much as Steph and Giannis combined at this point. GOAT things. They'll have to play nearly double the games if they even hope to catch him individually lol.

[Vox Populi]

Could we have less arguing and more lists of your Top 2 in each position, please?

[WarriorGM]

The entirety of the top 10 were basically MVP/all NBA first team level from their very early 20's or just after their rookie season and had very long primes, and were pretty healthy and durable until they were 30+.

It's such a hard bar to clear, they almost all have a crap ton of trophies and titles not only because they were so good, but their bar of excellence was for so long as well. The non C's(And evne some of the C's who only get one spot) all have more all NBA first team appearances than Steph and Giannis have all star game appearances.

They both only have 3 top 3 mvp finishes so far.

They have great peaks/primes, but they might have both gotten really rolling too late to be able to stack up the trophy cases some of these guys did just by being phenoms at such a young age. It's hard to catch someone like Magic who comes out of the gate at a star level and is already snatching finals MVPs and averaging near a triple double for the playoffs as a 20 year old. 9 straight years all NBA 1st team, 9 straight years top 3 in MVP voting speaks to a level of dominance and consistency these guys have not been able to put together for that long of a stretch as of yet.

Magic's first 10 seasons he accomplished as much as Steph and Giannis combined at this point. GOAT things. They'll have to play nearly double the games if they even hope to catch him individually lol.

There are accomplishments and there are accomplishments. Magic is the poster child among the great NBA players for being put in the most advantageous position and benefiting from it. Yes he accomplished a lot but starting from where he did he should have.

Magic started his career with a teammate who is in discussion as the greatest to every play and spent the majority of his career with him. He also started in the biggest market that drew attention resulting in a built-in advantage when it came time to doling out NBA honors. So Magic has a few more media awards? They were pretty much bringing them to his door.

In comparison Steph and Giannis had to build their teams and own reputations and cast off the stench of losing and irrelevance that hung over their franchises. Magic if we're being honest sidestepped that. I'm not even sure he could win a championship if he was dumped in the situation Steph and Giannis found themselves in which most lottery picks are. At least with Kobe he had those middle years with slim pickings for teammates where future success looked doubtful and he faced adversity. Magic had James Worthy at worst and still they didn't win without Kareem present. In my view if Magic was put in a more average starting position like that of most other lottery picks there is a good chance his career would look more like David Robinson's, great but not top 10.

You say Magic accomplished GOAT things? List them. Because missing a turn around championship is a pretty big hole in his résumé and he'd need a few of those GOAT things to compensate for that lack.

[Vox Populi]

You say Magic accomplished GOAT things? List them. Because missing a turn around championship is a pretty big hole in his résumé and he'd need a few of those GOAT things to compensate for that lack.

I agree with you about Magic being the poster child among the great NBA players for being put in the most advantageous position and benefiting from it.

However, to answer your question, how about winning the Finals and Finals MVP as a rookie at the age of 20?

What is "missing a turn around championship"? I am not sure what that means.

[WarriorGM]

You say Magic accomplished GOAT things? List them. Because missing a turn around championship is a pretty big hole in his résumé and he'd need a few of those GOAT things to compensate for that lack.

I agree with you about Magic being the poster child among the great NBA players for being put in the most advantageous position and benefiting from it.

However, to answer your question, how about winning the Finals and Finals MVP as a rookie at the age of 20?

What is "missing a turn around championship"? I am not sure what that means.

Won that finals and FMVP with Kareem who it was revealed by one of the voters should have received that honor but the network exerted pressure to give it to Magic instead.

A turnaround championship is my definition for winning in a situation where you have to turn things around where the road to a championship is not already paved. It can be a long process over many years and almost always is. I think this is very important because it is the basic and most major test that confronts most lottery picks who are usually put on losing teams and expected to turn them around. It is also fundamentally what you expect a great player to be able to do especially one who would be called the greatest.