Is this the greatest peak of all-time?

LessEyeTest · Post #1 » by **LessEyeTest** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:29 am

Also has anyone ever had such good advanced stats through the first 8 years?

Everyone looking for the next MJ, the next LeBron...but they're looking in the wrong place.

Jokic is really H.I.M

Ito · Post #2 » by **Ito** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:36 am

Haven’t won anything :dontknow:

Lookin like he can be used as an example next time you wanna compare rings vs mvps

LessEyeTest · Post #3 » by **LessEyeTest** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:39 am

Ito wrote:Haven’t won anything

Lookin like he can be used as an example next time you wanna compare rings vs mvps

Rings are team accomplishments fwiw. I would never hold it against Jokic for not winning a title when he's played with 0 all-stars in his 8 year career. Hell, even guys like LeBron who I consider serious floor raisers and capable of carrying teams to titles played with all-stars and won nothing until he basically teamed up with 2 other all-stars and countless HOFers...

DonaldSanders · Post #4 » by **DonaldSanders** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:43 am

LessEyeTest wrote:
Ito wrote:Haven’t won anything

Lookin like he can be used as an example next time you wanna compare rings vs mvps

Rings are team accomplishments fwiw. I would never hold it against Jokic for not winning a title when he's played with 0 all-stars in his 8 year career. Hell, even guys like LeBron who I consider serious floor raisers and capable of carrying teams to titles played with all-stars and won nothing until he basically teamed up with 2 other all-stars and countless HOFers...

The point is to win, and at some point that has to matter. I think he will do it, but it's not the greatest peak without some big post season carries. He doesn't have to grab 4 rings but he has to show carry-age that leads to his team winning more than expected -- multiple conference finals and finals appearances with heavy lifting at minimum.

It's one of the greatest regular season peaks, sure, but until the postseason stuff comes together it's not going to qualify as "all time" for me. The top peaks have both.

threethehardway · Post #5 » by **threethehardway** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:55 am

People that expect all time great players to carry regular guys that are overpaid to glory will never be satisfied.

Jokic plays with a cast of nobodies outside of Jamal Murray, MPJ and Aaron Gordon who are just above average starters.

Jokic third best player at one time was Will Barton.

Will Barton.

You take Jokic off of the Nuggets and it is a lottery team. That's carrying.

LessEyeTest · Post #6 » by **LessEyeTest** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:26 am

threethehardway wrote:People that impact all time great individual players to carry regular guys that are overpaid to glory will never be satisfied.

Jokic plays with a cast of nobodies outside of Jamal Murray, MPJ and Aaron Gordon who are just above average starters.

Jokic third best player at one time was Will Barton.

Will Barton.

You take Jokic off of the Nuggets and it is a lottery team. That's carrying.

Thank you brother!

Roger Murdock · Post #7 » by **Roger Murdock** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:31 am

No of course not. He hasn’t been at the highest peaks of guys like LeBron

However I think Jokic could end up being the most consistently impactful player ever. His rebounding, and passing is unreal every game, and his touch and finishing is more consistent than I’ve ever seen.

Players more reliant on long range shooting and dribbling will be more prone to turnovers and bad shooting nights

How many horrible games has Jokic had in the last 2 seasons? Less than 5?

Guys like KD/Curry/Doncic/LeBron might have an off night 20% of the time give or take. Jokic might be 5%

HEAT33 · Post #8 » by **HEAT33** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:35 am

Stats are not everything, it’s just part of the picture

JN61 · Post #9 » by **JN61** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:37 am

Nah. This era is very soft.

f4p · Post #10 » by **f4p** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:38 am

Roger Murdock wrote:No of course not. He hasn’t been at the highest peaks of guys like LeBron

However I think Jokic could end up being the most consistently impactful player ever. His rebounding, and passing is unreal every game, and his touch and finishing is more consistent than I’ve ever seen.

Players more reliant on long range shooting and dribbling will be more prone to turnovers and bad shooting nights

How many horrible games has Jokic had in the last 2 seasons? Less than 5?

Guys like KD/Curry/Doncic/LeBron might have an off night 20% of the time give or take. Jokic might be 5%

i think jokic has shot below 50% once this season. once! that doesn't seem possible for anybody but one of the deandre jordan type guys who just catch lobs.

prime lebron was also pretty insane as can be seen by all his "consecutive games with 15/5/5" type streaks. one of his mvp seasons, i think his worst game (by game score) was like a 13/7/6 game where he didn't even shoot that badly.

ClubLakers KB8 · Post #11 » by **ClubLakers KB8** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:45 am

Ito wrote:Haven’t won anything

Lookin like he can be used as an example next time you wanna compare rings vs mvps

I'll just say this...

How is it his fault? Look at the standings and who he has.

Look back at the mid 2000's with Kobe and LeBron. It's a team sport, you can't win a chip without help.

Heej · Post #12 » by **Heej** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:40 am

I think we're seeing the greatest offensive peak ever. But stats do an extremely poor job capturing defense, and that is a real question with Jokic in the playoffs. Don't think we can conclude this is the greatest peak when you factor in defense.

lonzo_pelota · Post #13 » by **lonzo_pelota** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:51 am

threethehardway wrote:People that expect all time great individual players to carry regular guys that are overpaid to glory will never be satisfied.

Jokic plays with a cast of nobodies outside of Jamal Murray, MPJ and Aaron Gordon who are just above average starters.

Jokic third best player at one time was Will Barton.

Will Barton.

You take Jokic off of the Nuggets and it is a lottery team. That's carrying.

World champion KCP would like to have a word with you

uberhikari · Post #14 » by **uberhikari** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:06 am

Jokic in his last two playoff runs: 30-12-5 on 60.8 TS%. And for those that like to use bbref's advanced stats: 30.8 PER, .188 WS/48, 9.6 BPM.

Those are great numbers but they don't look like GOAT peak numbers. Especially when you factor in his defense and how non-competitive the playoff series were.

Against the Suns in 2021 Jokic averaged: 25-13-6 on 53 TS%. That's not even close to GOAT peak numbers. And nobody was expecting Jokic to actually beat the Suns but the series wasn't even competitive.

Against GSW in 2022 Jokic averaged: 31-13-6 on 64 TS%. Those numbers look more like GOAT peak numbers but, once again, the series wasn't even competitive AND his defense was truly horrendous.

From 2007-2009 LeBron had teammates just as bad as Jokic and he was able to at least make his team competitive.

2007 LeBron made the Finals.
2008 LeBron took the eventual champions to 7 games.
2009 LeBron averaged 38-8-8 on 59 TS% in the ECF and forced the series to 6 games.

Jokic hasn't been able to even make a series slightly competitive.

Jokic doesn't have to win. But he's going to need to put up monstrous historical numbers while making the series competitive to even sniff GOAT peak talk.

NZB2323 · Post #15 » by **NZB2323** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:15 am

Jokic is amazing, but defense is half the game. Jordan won DPOTY and Lebron was a great defensive player during his prime.

Jokic vs. Shaq or Hakeem would be interesting.

cam24thomas · Post #16 » by **cam24thomas** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:21 am

Better than LeBarn ever was that's for sure.

jreed23 · Post #17 » by **jreed23** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:24 am

Hell no!

formula 400 · Post #18 » by **formula 400** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:41 am

"its a fugazi"... donnie brasco

Infinite Llamas · Post #19 » by **Infinite Llamas** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:43 am

uberhikari wrote:Jokic in his last two playoff runs: 30-12-5 on 60.8 TS%. And for those that like to use bbref's advanced stats: 30.8 PER, .188 WS/48, 9.6 BPM.

Those are great numbers but they don't look like GOAT peak numbers. Especially when you factor in his defense and how non-competitive the playoff series were.

Against the Suns in 2021 Jokic averaged: 25-13-6 on 53 TS%. That's not even close to GOAT peak numbers. And nobody was expecting Jokic to actually beat the Suns but the series wasn't even competitive.

Against GSW in 2022 Jokic averaged: 31-13-6 on 64 TS%. Those numbers look more like GOAT peak numbers but, once again, the series wasn't even competitive AND his defense was truly horrendous.

From 2007-2009 LeBron had teammates just as bad as Jokic and he was able to at least make his team competitive.

2007 LeBron made the Finals.
2008 LeBron took the eventual champions to 7 games.
2009 LeBron averaged 38-8-8 on 59 TS% in the ECF and forced the series to 6 games.

Jokic hasn't been able to even make a series slightly competitive.

Jokic doesn't have to win. But he's going to need to put up monstrous historical numbers while making the series competitive to even sniff GOAT peak talk.

I dare you to find a Lebron team as awful as Gordon/Barton/Campazzo/Rivers/Monte/Hyland…

“Just as bad” lmao

KyRo23 · Post #20 » by **KyRo23** » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:48 am

Infinite Llamas wrote:
uberhikari wrote:Jokic in his last two playoff runs: 30-12-5 on 60.8 TS%. And for those that like to use bbref's advanced stats: 30.8 PER, .188 WS/48, 9.6 BPM.

Those are great numbers but they don't look like GOAT peak numbers. Especially when you factor in his defense and how non-competitive the playoff series were.

Against the Suns in 2021 Jokic averaged: 25-13-6 on 53 TS%. That's not even close to GOAT peak numbers. And nobody was expecting Jokic to actually beat the Suns but the series wasn't even competitive.

Against GSW in 2022 Jokic averaged: 31-13-6 on 64 TS%. Those numbers look more like GOAT peak numbers but, once again, the series wasn't even competitive AND his defense was truly horrendous.

From 2007-2009 LeBron had teammates just as bad as Jokic and he was able to at least make his team competitive.

2007 LeBron made the Finals.
2008 LeBron took the eventual champions to 7 games.
2009 LeBron averaged 38-8-8 on 59 TS% in the ECF and forced the series to 6 games.

Jokic hasn't been able to even make a series slightly competitive.

Jokic doesn't have to win. But he's going to need to put up monstrous historical numbers while making the series competitive to even sniff GOAT peak talk.

I dare you to find a Lebron team as awful as Gordon/Barton/Campazzo/Rivers/Monte/Hyland…

“Just as bad” lmao

But why are you leaving out Murray and MPJ? Are we just talking about last season?