Shaq and LeBron / dislodging via shoulder

[SNPA]

Shaq perfected this on the block, and James perfected it on the drive.

Would the game be better if an offensive player using his shoulder to dislodge a defender was called an offensive foul consistently?

If not, why not?

And what if in the future it is called an offensive foul, what would that do to Shaq and LeBron’s legacies?

[henshao]

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[SNPA]

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Nice video.

At some point in the future I hope the game returns to not allowing ramming into the defender. And if/when it does I think Shaq and James’ game/legacies may look different in retrospect. If your main move is by definition a foul…well…

[migya]

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Nice video.

At some point in the future I hope the game returns to not allowing ramming into the defender. And if/when it does I think Shaq and James’ game/legacies may look different in retrospect. If your main move is by definition a foul…well…

If Chamberlain had been allowed to do that he'd have averaged 50pts for his career.

Shaq certainly would've been far less of a scorer and Lebron as well. Jordan and Olajuwon are great examples of great and multi skilled scoring ability. Jokic is also such a player.

[homecourtloss]

Shaq perfected this on the block, and James perfected it on the drive.

Would the game be better if an offensive player using his shoulder to dislodge a defender was called an offensive foul consistently?

If not, why not?

And what if in the future it is called an offensive foul, what would that do to Shaq and LeBron’s legacies?

Nice agenda post.

[SNPA]

Shaq perfected this on the block, and James perfected it on the drive.

Would the game be better if an offensive player using his shoulder to dislodge a defender was called an offensive foul consistently?

If not, why not?

And what if in the future it is called an offensive foul, what would that do to Shaq and LeBron’s legacies?

Nice agenda post.

Not hiding.

I saw James do it to Keegan Murray the other day and thought about what a rookie is supposed to take away from that call. It is bad for the game at either extreme of no contact or full out dislodging via dipping and rammed a shoulder into a defender.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Shaq perfected this on the block, and James perfected it on the drive.

Would the game be better if an offensive player using his shoulder to dislodge a defender was called an offensive foul consistently?

If not, why not?

And what if in the future it is called an offensive foul, what would that do to Shaq and LeBron’s legacies?

1. If basketball was refereed like it was in the 60s with the contact rules no one would watch it right now, and that doesn’t seem like a fun sport to watch or play.

I do think that defensive fouls get called a bit too easily, this applies to everyone except for lebron though lmao

2. Trying to argue that bron benefits from this more than pretty much all other big drive heavy guys in the nba is comical, bron has the worst whistle in the nba when it comes to free throws and has had so for awhile. He’s started driving through guys more than past guys since he went to the Lakers. He gets away with offensive fouls sometimes for sure, prolly deserves 5-6 more free throws a game based on his peers, so let’s not be silly here

There are some defensive fouls that should be no calls but turning contact into offensive fouls just makes it lame as hell lol.

If everyone’s on the move you should be able to use your body to shield the ball.

If they get their feet set in front of you and you ram into them it should be a foul, if ur just driving slow but physical that’s fine. As long as ur clearly not ramming into them that’s fine.

There are some guys that get away with a bit too many offensive fouls when they’re literally barreling over guys or elbowing guys, outside of Giannis people get way more annoyed about defensive fouls being called too much than offensive no calls

[70sFan]

The league should have come back to the original interpretation of offensive fouls. I can't stand watching Giannis running through defenders and getting whistles...

Yesterday I scouted Artis Gilmore game from 1976 and he got called for an offensive foul after a move that Shaq did like 5 times per game.

[70sFan]

Shaq perfected this on the block, and James perfected it on the drive.

Would the game be better if an offensive player using his shoulder to dislodge a defender was called an offensive foul consistently?

If not, why not?

And what if in the future it is called an offensive foul, what would that do to Shaq and LeBron’s legacies?

Nice agenda post.

I mean, having agenda isn't always bad. I think it's a legit problem in modern NBW. It's not about James, it's about what you allow on basketball court.

[70sFan]

1. If basketball was refereed like it was in the 60s with the contact rules no one would watch it right now, and that doesn’t seem like a fun sport to watch or play.

You think that way only because you are used to modern product, but that's not true. Basketball was never about running through defenders and using shoulders to push defenders away. I guess it's an American thing, not all sports need to look like American football...

Real football doesn't allow such contact and it's the most popular sport in the world. Not everyone want to watch two big guys colliding at full speed. I watch sumo wrestling to see that, but basketball isn't about it.

There are some defensive fouls that should be no calls but turning contact into offensive fouls just makes it lame as hell lol.

Maybe it is "lame", but it's correct according to the rules of basketball. Contact was always allowed, but running into defender at full speed isn't basketball.

If everyone’s on the move you should be able to use your body to shield the ball.

Yeah, let's make basketball look like amercian football.

[MyUniBroDavis]

1. If basketball was refereed like it was in the 60s with the contact rules no one would watch it right now, and that doesn’t seem like a fun sport to watch or play.

You think that way only because you are used to modern product, but that's not true. Basketball was never about running through defenders and using shoulders to push defenders away. I guess it's an American thing, not all sports need to look like American football...

Real football doesn't allow such contact and it's the most popular sport in the world. Not everyone want to watch two big guys colliding at full speed. I watch sumo wrestling to see that, but basketball isn't about it.

There are some defensive fouls that should be no calls but turning contact into offensive fouls just makes it lame as hell lol.

Maybe it is "lame", but it's correct according to the rules of basketball. Contact was always allowed, but running into defender at full speed isn't basketball.

If everyone’s on the move you should be able to use your body to shield the ball.

Yeah, let's make basketball look like amercian football.

1. I’m not even American. You can use your body to shield the ball in football/soccer too. I’m not saying let gets ram into each other but yeah it’s a physical sport it’s not non contact.

I’d you’re trying to imply that if you’re driving in and the defender is rushing in, the offensive player doesn’t have right of way thats just a silly argument.

2. The rules of basketball say a hesi is illegal. I doubt anyone thinks ball handling looked cooler in the 60s than in 2020. In any case there’s a difference between walling someone off and ramming into them. I never said you can football tackle someone.

I never said running into someone at full speed is fine, I said if everyone’s running and some contact happens and the offensive player initiated it it should be a no call depending on the situation. Right now it’s usually a defensive foil

3. Shield the ball = headfirst tackling. Got it.

In any case I understand why no contact isn’t called more to protect players, but it’s still annoying

[70sFan]

1. I’m not even American. You can use your body to shield the ball in football/soccer too. I’m not saying let gets ram into each other but yeah it’s a physical sport it’s not non contact.

I’d you’re trying to imply that if you’re driving in and the defender is rushing in, the offensive player doesn’t have right of way thats just a silly argument.

So you think these plays are perfectly legal?

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2. The rules of basketball say a hesi is illegal. I doubt anyone thinks ball handling looked cooler in the 60s than in 2020.

We're not talking about ball-handling here, but about contact allowed.

I never said running into someone at full speed is fine, I said if everyone’s running and some contact happens and the offensive player initiated it it should be a no call depending on the situation. Right now it’s usually a defensive foil

Then you are not talking about things the OP says about.

[Gooner]

The league should have come back to the original interpretation of offensive fouls. I can't stand watching Giannis running through defenders and getting whistles...

Yesterday I scouted Artis Gilmore game from 1976 and he got called for an offensive foul after a move that Shaq did like 5 times per game.

I completely agree, but when I pointed out all the violations that Giannis does, you argued against it and said that I was being unfair. Giannis is a great athlete, but I just can't be impressed by that kind of basketball.

[Gooner]

1. If basketball was refereed like it was in the 60s with the contact rules no one would watch it right now, and that doesn’t seem like a fun sport to watch or play.

You think that way only because you are used to modern product, but that's not true. Basketball was never about running through defenders and using shoulders to push defenders away. I guess it's an American thing, not all sports need to look like American football...

Real football doesn't allow such contact and it's the most popular sport in the world. Not everyone want to watch two big guys colliding at full speed. I watch sumo wrestling to see that, but basketball isn't about it.

There are some defensive fouls that should be no calls but turning contact into offensive fouls just makes it lame as hell lol.

Maybe it is "lame", but it's correct according to the rules of basketball. Contact was always allowed, but running into defender at full speed isn't basketball.

If everyone’s on the move you should be able to use your body to shield the ball.

Yeah, let's make basketball look like amercian football.

1. I’m not even American. You can use your body to shield the ball in football/soccer too. I’m not saying let gets ram into each other but yeah it’s a physical sport it’s not non contact.

I’d you’re trying to imply that if you’re driving in and the defender is rushing in, the offensive player doesn’t have right of way thats just a silly argument.

2. The rules of basketball say a hesi is illegal. I doubt anyone thinks ball handling looked cooler in the 60s than in 2020. In any case there’s a difference between walling someone off and ramming into them. I never said you can football tackle someone.

I never said running into someone at full speed is fine, I said if everyone’s running and some contact happens and the offensive player initiated it it should be a no call depending on the situation. Right now it’s usually a defensive foil

3. Shield the ball = headfirst tackling. Got it.

In any case I understand why no contact isn’t called more to protect players, but it’s still annoying

Who says that you can't shield the ball? Players like Giannis and LeBron are literally pushing people off. That's not basketball.

[70sFan]

The league should have come back to the original interpretation of offensive fouls. I can't stand watching Giannis running through defenders and getting whistles...

Yesterday I scouted Artis Gilmore game from 1976 and he got called for an offensive foul after a move that Shaq did like 5 times per game.

I completely agree, but when I pointed out all the violations that Giannis does, you argued against it and said that I was being unfair. Giannis is a great athlete, but I just can't be impressed by that kind of basketball.

I criticize the phenomenon, not player. If refs allow Giannis to do that and he can do it better than anyone, then it's a smart thing to exploit it. I also disagree with you, because you think that Giannis isn't a great basketball player because he pushes defenders which is not true.

I also disagree with you because you think such things didn't happen in the 1990s, when the trend was very visible since the mid-1980s at least. It's not coincidence that the most physical player in the league history played in the 1990s.

[Gooner]

The league should have come back to the original interpretation of offensive fouls. I can't stand watching Giannis running through defenders and getting whistles...

Yesterday I scouted Artis Gilmore game from 1976 and he got called for an offensive foul after a move that Shaq did like 5 times per game.

I completely agree, but when I pointed out all the violations that Giannis does, you argued against it and said that I was being unfair. Giannis is a great athlete, but I just can't be impressed by that kind of basketball.

I criticize the phenomenon, not player. If refs allow Giannis to do that and he can do it better than anyone, then it's a smart thing to exploit it. I also disagree with you, because you think that Giannis isn't a great basketball player because he pushes defenders which is not true.

I also disagree with you because you think such things didn't happen in the 1990s, when the trend was very visible since the mid-1980s at least. It's not coincidence that the most physical player in the league history played in the 1990s.

I believe that players also have a responsibility to the game of basketball to not turn it into a circus. So Giannis pushes and travels better than anyone? OK, but I'm not impressed by that.

[70sFan]

I completely agree, but when I pointed out all the violations that Giannis does, you argued against it and said that I was being unfair. Giannis is a great athlete, but I just can't be impressed by that kind of basketball.

I criticize the phenomenon, not player. If refs allow Giannis to do that and he can do it better than anyone, then it's a smart thing to exploit it. I also disagree with you, because you think that Giannis isn't a great basketball player because he pushes defenders which is not true.

I also disagree with you because you think such things didn't happen in the 1990s, when the trend was very visible since the mid-1980s at least. It's not coincidence that the most physical player in the league history played in the 1990s.

I believe that players also have a responsibility to the game of basketball to not turn it into a circus. So Giannis pushes and travels better than anyone? OK, but I'm not impressed by that.

Well, Giannis also defends better than almost anyone, finishes inside better than anyone, passes better than most bigs, handles the ball better than any big now... Giannis is very skilled player, on top of his physical tools.

I can use your logic and say that I'm not impressed by Jordan traveling better than anyone pre-1990.

[MyUniBroDavis]

1. I’m not even American. You can use your body to shield the ball in football/soccer too. I’m not saying let gets ram into each other but yeah it’s a physical sport it’s not non contact.

I’d you’re trying to imply that if you’re driving in and the defender is rushing in, the offensive player doesn’t have right of way thats just a silly argument.

So you think these plays are perfectly legal?

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2. The rules of basketball say a hesi is illegal. I doubt anyone thinks ball handling looked cooler in the 60s than in 2020.

We're not talking about ball-handling here, but about contact allowed.

I never said running into someone at full speed is fine, I said if everyone’s running and some contact happens and the offensive player initiated it it should be a no call depending on the situation. Right now it’s usually a defensive foil

Then you are not talking about things the OP says about.

Stop trying to misrepresent what I said lmao

There are some defensive fouls that should be no calls but turning contact into offensive fouls just makes it lame as hell lol.

If everyone’s on the move you should be able to use your body to shield the ball.

If they get their feet set in front of you and you ram into them it should be a foul, if ur just driving slow but physical that’s fine. As long as ur clearly not ramming into them that’s fine.

There are some guys that get away with a bit too many offensive fouls when they’re literally barreling over guys or elbowing guys, outside of Giannis people get way more annoyed about defensive fouls being called too much than offensive no calls

I don’t care if this different from what OP said. In the above he very clearly is doing it as agenda as a veiled criticism on bron and shaq, which he said himself, and it’s particularly idiotic to use it as a point against bron when he gets a horrendous whistle. Shaq got mauled as well

^i guess since he admitted it it’s not really a veiled attack, but implying that their main move is a foul is a talk on physicality in general since outright elbowing someone out of transition blatantly is a once or twice a game thing from bron if even

Anyways

1. That’s a foul
2.
3.
4.
^^^ don’t really mind any of these.
5. That’s a foul
6. Indifferent, probably extended his elbow a bit too much but that’s about it. I’d take issue if it was called a defensive foul but I don’t really care much
7. Don’t mind it

In any case, my main issue is calling defensive fouls on the play like the lebron one in transition. If that was a defensive foul I’d be more annoyed

I’d find it hard to argue the above make it a worse product when most of the plays you showed me as an example of what should be changed are highlights lol

I don’t think it’s a big deal offensive players are allowed to be more physical today, OP is acting like bron is an absurd beneficiary of modern rules as if he doesn’t have a horrible whistle.

I think in transition, if both parties are on the move and they aren’t directly in front of you, if you extend your elbow it’s a foul. I’m undecided on if you keep it locked but I’d lean no. I just think the defenders should have some freedom to be physical as well in that regard

As for post offense I couldn’t really care less that they allow big guys to bang

For me on drives you should be able to lean into them and jump into them to create contact situations and you shouldn’t get free throws if they’re being physical without their contest disrupting your shot in an illegal way.

I think it’s fine to go through someone but they need to be more clear in how they call the elbow rules and it shouldn’t be allowed to extend passed a certain point, and I think both parties need to be on the move

I think defenders should be allowed to apply force the opposite way as well in response to this.

I don’t care about the post ups you showed mostly because I don’t think any of those translate to an inferior product, and defenders are allowed to push back

I don’t think any of the above makes a worse product regardless of what the rules say

Bully ball is fine and it’s fun to watch. I don’t think it’s fair that they allow offensive players this freedom while restricting defensive players in the same regard, but I don’t think the issue is make basketball look as weirdly non physical as it does in some 60s games. I think what makes sense is to give defenders more freedom, but I understand why they favor the offense more.

[MyUniBroDavis]

You think that way only because you are used to modern product, but that's not true. Basketball was never about running through defenders and using shoulders to push defenders away. I guess it's an American thing, not all sports need to look like American football...

Real football doesn't allow such contact and it's the most popular sport in the world. Not everyone want to watch two big guys colliding at full speed. I watch sumo wrestling to see that, but basketball isn't about it.


Maybe it is "lame", but it's correct according to the rules of basketball. Contact was always allowed, but running into defender at full speed isn't basketball.


Yeah, let's make basketball look like amercian football.

1. I’m not even American. You can use your body to shield the ball in football/soccer too. I’m not saying let gets ram into each other but yeah it’s a physical sport it’s not non contact.

I’d you’re trying to imply that if you’re driving in and the defender is rushing in, the offensive player doesn’t have right of way thats just a silly argument.

2. The rules of basketball say a hesi is illegal. I doubt anyone thinks ball handling looked cooler in the 60s than in 2020. In any case there’s a difference between walling someone off and ramming into them. I never said you can football tackle someone.

I never said running into someone at full speed is fine, I said if everyone’s running and some contact happens and the offensive player initiated it it should be a no call depending on the situation. Right now it’s usually a defensive foil

3. Shield the ball = headfirst tackling. Got it.

In any case I understand why no contact isn’t called more to protect players, but it’s still annoying

Who says that you can't shield the ball? Players like Giannis and LeBron are literally pushing people off. That's not basketball.

If you think lebron, who averages less free throws a game than KD, gets a favorable whistle, you are an idiot, which as everyone knows, you are.

Warned for personal attack - CF

[Gooner]

1. I’m not even American. You can use your body to shield the ball in football/soccer too. I’m not saying let gets ram into each other but yeah it’s a physical sport it’s not non contact.

I’d you’re trying to imply that if you’re driving in and the defender is rushing in, the offensive player doesn’t have right of way thats just a silly argument.

2. The rules of basketball say a hesi is illegal. I doubt anyone thinks ball handling looked cooler in the 60s than in 2020. In any case there’s a difference between walling someone off and ramming into them. I never said you can football tackle someone.

I never said running into someone at full speed is fine, I said if everyone’s running and some contact happens and the offensive player initiated it it should be a no call depending on the situation. Right now it’s usually a defensive foil

3. Shield the ball = headfirst tackling. Got it.

In any case I understand why no contact isn’t called more to protect players, but it’s still annoying

Who says that you can't shield the ball? Players like Giannis and LeBron are literally pushing people off. That's not basketball.

If you think lebron, who averages less free throws a game than KD, gets a favorable whistle, you are an idiot, which as everyone knows, you are.

It's enough that he bulldozes through defenders, if anyone should be called for a foul, it's him, not a defender.