Is this the greatest peak of all-time?

[dhsilv2]

I dare you to find a Lebron team as awful as Gordon/Barton/Campazzo/Rivers/Monte/Hyland…

“Just as bad” lmao

Starting lineup in 2007 finals




They ended up starting Daniel Gibson when Hughes got hurt. That team is objectively worse, Gordon is better by miles than anyone on that roster.

Yes that offense is bad but That Cavs was good because of defense. the team played like a top 5 defense even when Lebron was on the bench. Nuggets with Jokic on the bench play like a bottom 5 defense.

Everyone wants to knock Jokic's defense, but then ignore the 07 cav's having one of the best defenses in the league? Hypocrisy just never stops around here.

[dhsilv2]

Starting lineup in 2007 finals




They ended up starting Daniel Gibson when Hughes got hurt. That team is objectively worse, Gordon is better by miles than anyone on that roster.

Aaron Gordon, the cast-off, who is playing out of his mind sheerly through Jokic's brilliance?

However, let's have some fun.

This guy played 20 mpg last season for Denver in 65 games, shot 36% from the field and was a large net negative. He has appeared for Dallas 8 times and averages 6.5 MPG this season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/campafa01.html

This guy started all 71 games for Denver last season averaging 32 MPG. He is now a backup for the 10th seeded Wizards playing 19 MPG.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bartowi01.html

This guy played 67 games for Denver last season averaging 22 MPG and had a 0.037 WS rate, 104 ORtg and 115 DRtg, and a -3.8 BPM.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/riverau01.html

Cool, this team made the finals -





Gordon is better than every single player on there other than LeBron. Larry Hughes averaged 2.5ppg in the two games he played in the finals, that was supposed to be LeBron's sidekick.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html


He was the starting 2 guard on a finals team

You might has well have said jerry stackhouse is better than Michael Jordan. No sane person could think that last year's Nuggets team was better than the 07 cavs when we account for the eras and needs of teams. That cavs team was an elite defensive team with a bunch of weak, but perfectly fitted players placed around Lebron.

[Homer38]

Aaron Gordon, the cast-off, who is playing out of his mind sheerly through Jokic's brilliance?

However, let's have some fun.

This guy played 20 mpg last season for Denver in 65 games, shot 36% from the field and was a large net negative. He has appeared for Dallas 8 times and averages 6.5 MPG this season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/campafa01.html

This guy started all 71 games for Denver last season averaging 32 MPG. He is now a backup for the 10th seeded Wizards playing 19 MPG.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bartowi01.html

This guy played 67 games for Denver last season averaging 22 MPG and had a 0.037 WS rate, 104 ORtg and 115 DRtg, and a -3.8 BPM.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/riverau01.html

Cool, this team made the finals -





Gordon is better than every single player on there other than LeBron. Larry Hughes averaged 2.5ppg in the two games he played in the finals, that was supposed to be LeBron's sidekick.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html


He was the starting 2 guard on a finals team

You might has well have said jerry stackhouse is better than Michael Jordan. No sane person could think that last year's Nuggets team was better than the 07 cavs when we account for the eras and needs of teams. That cavs team was an elite defensive team with a bunch of weak, but perfectly fitted players placed around Lebron.

Good defensive team,yeah I agree but perfectly fitted players around LeBron?...No way...They were one of the worst team to hit a open shot!...It was awful!

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Aaron Gordon, the cast-off, who is playing out of his mind sheerly through Jokic's brilliance?

However, let's have some fun.

This guy played 20 mpg last season for Denver in 65 games, shot 36% from the field and was a large net negative. He has appeared for Dallas 8 times and averages 6.5 MPG this season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/campafa01.html

This guy started all 71 games for Denver last season averaging 32 MPG. He is now a backup for the 10th seeded Wizards playing 19 MPG.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bartowi01.html

This guy played 67 games for Denver last season averaging 22 MPG and had a 0.037 WS rate, 104 ORtg and 115 DRtg, and a -3.8 BPM.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/riverau01.html

Cool, this team made the finals -





Gordon is better than every single player on there other than LeBron. Larry Hughes averaged 2.5ppg in the two games he played in the finals, that was supposed to be LeBron's sidekick.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html


He was the starting 2 guard on a finals team

You might has well have said jerry stackhouse is better than Michael Jordan. No sane person could think that last year's Nuggets team was better than the 07 cavs when we account for the eras and needs of teams. That cavs team was an elite defensive team with a bunch of weak, but perfectly fitted players placed around Lebron.

The Cavs were 4th defensively, stop trying to paint them out to be the 04 Pistons on that end, they were a scrappy defensive team that couldn't play their best defenders when the games actually meant something. It's why Gibson and Pavlovic eventually started, Eric Snow averaged 4.5ppg that season and started 45 games before they figured out that maybe they should go with Pavlovic, and just stop and think about that for 1 second, Pavlovic was a better option than him.


Perfectly fitting players placed around LeBron? Hughes shot 33% from three, Eric Snow shot 0%, he didn't make a three all season and this is your definition of "perfectly fitted". The depths you guys go to prop up Jokic is incredible, Monte Morris, Will Barton and Aaron Gordon would have started over all those Cavs players, they are better.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Cool, this team made the finals -





Gordon is better than every single player on there other than LeBron. Larry Hughes averaged 2.5ppg in the two games he played in the finals, that was supposed to be LeBron's sidekick.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html


He was the starting 2 guard on a finals team

You might has well have said jerry stackhouse is better than Michael Jordan. No sane person could think that last year's Nuggets team was better than the 07 cavs when we account for the eras and needs of teams. That cavs team was an elite defensive team with a bunch of weak, but perfectly fitted players placed around Lebron.

Good defensive team,yeah I agree but perfectly fitted players around LeBron?...No way...They were one of the worst team to hit a open shot!...It was awful!

They are without a shadow of a doubt the worst team to make it to the NBA finals. I just noticed the guy who initially asked for a worse roster joined in 2022, so I'm going to assume he's very young and didn't realize just how bad some of LeBron's early teams were.

[LessEyeTest]

You might has well have said jerry stackhouse is better than Michael Jordan. No sane person could think that last year's Nuggets team was better than the 07 cavs when we account for the eras and needs of teams. That cavs team was an elite defensive team with a bunch of weak, but perfectly fitted players placed around Lebron.

Good defensive team,yeah I agree but perfectly fitted players around LeBron?...No way...They were one of the worst team to hit a open shot!...It was awful!

They are without a shadow of a doubt the worst team to make it to the NBA finals. I just noticed the guy who initially asked for a worse roster joined in 2022, so I'm going to assume he's very young and didn't realize just how bad some of LeBron's early teams were.

Haha I was staying up past midnight to watch the Spurs beat the Knicks my first year coming to the states. I’m thinking I might be older than you.

I just never came away thinking that a team constructed entirely around LeBron (and probably with his input) would be viewed as bad considering they made the Finals. I remember TD thanking LBJ for “giving me this one” but alas LBJ had a tendency of giving the stars on other teams the title frequently (even when he stacked his own team).

The reality is this - those guys may not have been all-stars, but they were constructed for LBJ. The Nuggets last year were certainly not constructed for Jokic whatsoever, after all that’s what happens when your two next best guys go down.

And you’ll keep docking your ship to Gordon being this mega superstar, eh?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

And you’ll keep docking your ship to Gordon being this mega superstar, eh?

No, where did I say superstar? This is a strawman. I have clearly said he was better than all of those Cav players, matter of fact Will Barton was objectively better in the playoffs than Hughes and so was Monte Morris.



If the Nuggets were so bad last year, how were they able to play Jokic only 34mpg in the playoffs, on the flip side of things LeBron played 44.7 mpg in the playoffs.

[dhsilv2]

Cool, this team made the finals -





Gordon is better than every single player on there other than LeBron. Larry Hughes averaged 2.5ppg in the two games he played in the finals, that was supposed to be LeBron's sidekick.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html


He was the starting 2 guard on a finals team

You might has well have said jerry stackhouse is better than Michael Jordan. No sane person could think that last year's Nuggets team was better than the 07 cavs when we account for the eras and needs of teams. That cavs team was an elite defensive team with a bunch of weak, but perfectly fitted players placed around Lebron.

Good defensive team,yeah I agree but perfectly fitted players around LeBron?...No way...They were one of the worst team to hit a open shot!...It was awful!

Big Z was a catch and shoot big by that era's standards. He could score in the post. They brought in Hughs as a secondary ball handler and scorer (he sucked at it with lebron, but he was on paper a fine fit), Gibson was a 3 point shooter, 3&D stretch, Jones was right off of leading the league in 3 point shooting.

They mostly under achieved offensively with lebron, but that team was absolutely hand selected to play off lebron with shooters all around, a scoring competent big man, and a guy coming off of an allstar season at a score first smaller guard to help with the ball handling.

[LessEyeTest]

And you’ll keep docking your ship to Gordon being this mega superstar, eh?

No, where did I say superstar? This is a strawman. I have clearly said he was better than all of those Cav players, matter of fact Will Barton was objectively better in the playoffs than Hughes and so was Monte Morris.



If the Nuggets were so bad last year, how were they able to play Jokic only 34mpg in the playoffs, on the flip side of things LeBron played 44.7 mpg in the playoffs.

Did you watch the Nuggets in the playoffs last year? The first two games were blowouts and Jokic had serious foul problems, the next 3 were close but Jokic suffered with foul trouble in Game 5. He was playing 38 MPG in games 3 and 4 and 32 in Game 5 (with serious foul trouble).

[sfernald]

How do Doncic's advanced stats compare? I think he'll have a higher peak eventually.. There is another!

[Homer38]

You might has well have said jerry stackhouse is better than Michael Jordan. No sane person could think that last year's Nuggets team was better than the 07 cavs when we account for the eras and needs of teams. That cavs team was an elite defensive team with a bunch of weak, but perfectly fitted players placed around Lebron.

Good defensive team,yeah I agree but perfectly fitted players around LeBron?...No way...They were one of the worst team to hit a open shot!...It was awful!

Big Z was a catch and shoot big by that era's standards. He could score in the post. They brought in Hughs as a secondary ball handler and scorer (he sucked at it with lebron, but he was on paper a fine fit), Gibson was a 3 point shooter, 3&D stretch, Jones was right off of leading the league in 3 point shooting.

They mostly under achieved offensively with lebron, but that team was absolutely hand selected to play off lebron with shooters all around, a scoring competent big man, and a guy coming off of an allstar season at a score first smaller guard to help with the ball handling.

Gibson was a 3 and D?!

[bradybunch]

If Jokic is who y'all say he is, he better win a title with that roster.

Is the roster perfect? No.

Is the roster good enough to win a title with supposedly the greatest peak player ever? YES.

[dhsilv2]

Cool, this team made the finals -





Gordon is better than every single player on there other than LeBron. Larry Hughes averaged 2.5ppg in the two games he played in the finals, that was supposed to be LeBron's sidekick.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html


He was the starting 2 guard on a finals team

You might has well have said jerry stackhouse is better than Michael Jordan. No sane person could think that last year's Nuggets team was better than the 07 cavs when we account for the eras and needs of teams. That cavs team was an elite defensive team with a bunch of weak, but perfectly fitted players placed around Lebron.

The Cavs were 4th defensively, stop trying to paint them out to be the 04 Pistons on that end, they were a scrappy defensive team that couldn't play their best defenders when the games actually meant something. It's why Gibson and Pavlovic eventually started, Eric Snow averaged 4.5ppg that season and started 45 games before they figured out that maybe they should go with Pavlovic, and just stop and think about that for 1 second, Pavlovic was a better option than him.


Perfectly fitting players placed around LeBron? Hughes shot 33% from three, Eric Snow shot 0%, he didn't make a three all season and this is your definition of "perfectly fitted". The depths you guys go to prop up Jokic is incredible, Monte Morris, Will Barton and Aaron Gordon would have started over all those Cavs players, they are better.

And we are now hearing about how being 4th in defense is not elite. That team for 2007 was a very solid and competent group. I've been listening to people stupidly insult that team for 15 years and you think I've just decided to do it now because of Jokic? Stupid is just that. Stupid. And thinking relative to the league that Jokic last year had more help than Lebron in 2007...

[dhsilv2]

And you’ll keep docking your ship to Gordon being this mega superstar, eh?

No, where did I say superstar? This is a strawman. I have clearly said he was better than all of those Cav players, matter of fact Will Barton was objectively better in the playoffs than Hughes and so was Monte Morris.



If the Nuggets were so bad last year, how were they able to play Jokic only 34mpg in the playoffs, on the flip side of things LeBron played 44.7 mpg in the playoffs.

Foul Trouble and blowouts....

[dhsilv2]

Good defensive team,yeah I agree but perfectly fitted players around LeBron?...No way...They were one of the worst team to hit a open shot!...It was awful!

Big Z was a catch and shoot big by that era's standards. He could score in the post. They brought in Hughs as a secondary ball handler and scorer (he sucked at it with lebron, but he was on paper a fine fit), Gibson was a 3 point shooter, 3&D stretch, Jones was right off of leading the league in 3 point shooting.

They mostly under achieved offensively with lebron, but that team was absolutely hand selected to play off lebron with shooters all around, a scoring competent big man, and a guy coming off of an allstar season at a score first smaller guard to help with the ball handling.

Gibson was a 3 and D?!

lol...jesus. Sorry, Gibson was a 3 point shooter and MARSHAL was a 3&D stretch. Yeash....

[NoDopeOnSundays]

And you’ll keep docking your ship to Gordon being this mega superstar, eh?

No, where did I say superstar? This is a strawman. I have clearly said he was better than all of those Cav players, matter of fact Will Barton was objectively better in the playoffs than Hughes and so was Monte Morris.



If the Nuggets were so bad last year, how were they able to play Jokic only 34mpg in the playoffs, on the flip side of things LeBron played 44.7 mpg in the playoffs.

Did you watch the Nuggets in the playoffs last year? The first two games were blowouts and Jokic had serious foul problems, the next 3 were close but Jokic suffered with foul trouble in Game 5. He was playing 38 MPG in games 3 and 4 and 32 in Game 5 (with serious foul trouble).

Yes I watched them, I also remember in game 4 he was subbed out for defensive purposes, which didn't happen to LeBron in 07, or ever. The Cavs beat the Nets by double digits in 3 of their 6 games, and LeBron still played 44 minutes per game in that series, because the team was utterly awful without him on the floor.

[KayDee35]

This is very likely the greatest 3-year offensive RS peak of all-time. If it isn't, it compares very favorably with the best 3 years of MJ and LeBron. There's no doubt that Jokic is having one of the best regular season runs ever.

However, the disagreement mostly centers around playoff performance and team success where Jokic certainly has not had the greatest run. Let's see what this postseason brings.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

You might has well have said jerry stackhouse is better than Michael Jordan. No sane person could think that last year's Nuggets team was better than the 07 cavs when we account for the eras and needs of teams. That cavs team was an elite defensive team with a bunch of weak, but perfectly fitted players placed around Lebron.

The Cavs were 4th defensively, stop trying to paint them out to be the 04 Pistons on that end, they were a scrappy defensive team that couldn't play their best defenders when the games actually meant something. It's why Gibson and Pavlovic eventually started, Eric Snow averaged 4.5ppg that season and started 45 games before they figured out that maybe they should go with Pavlovic, and just stop and think about that for 1 second, Pavlovic was a better option than him.


Perfectly fitting players placed around LeBron? Hughes shot 33% from three, Eric Snow shot 0%, he didn't make a three all season and this is your definition of "perfectly fitted". The depths you guys go to prop up Jokic is incredible, Monte Morris, Will Barton and Aaron Gordon would have started over all those Cavs players, they are better.

And we are now hearing about how being 4th in defense is not elite. That team for 2007 was a very solid and competent group. I've been listening to people stupidly insult that team for 15 years and you think I've just decided to do it now because of Jokic? Stupid is just that. Stupid. And thinking relative to the league that Jokic last year had more help than Lebron in 2007...

Categorizing the 07 team as very good is laughable, they weren't even healthy at the time they made the finals, they just caught lightning in a bottle which was LeBron going supernova against the Pistons. I don't know what you've been up to the last 15 years, nor do I really care. You tried to paint that team out as being built well around LeBron when people at the time knew it was a poor fitting team, they wanted Michael Redd and settled for Hughes. LeBron was a big reason why they were so good on defense, he wasn't the reason their offense was bad that was a lack of talent on his team, you however can definitely place blame on Jokic for the Nuggets playoff defense. That is the real difference between their circumstances, and the fact that Gordon, Barton and Monte are better than Pavlovic, Zydrunas and Gibson.

[dhsilv2]

No, where did I say superstar? This is a strawman. I have clearly said he was better than all of those Cav players, matter of fact Will Barton was objectively better in the playoffs than Hughes and so was Monte Morris.



If the Nuggets were so bad last year, how were they able to play Jokic only 34mpg in the playoffs, on the flip side of things LeBron played 44.7 mpg in the playoffs.

Did you watch the Nuggets in the playoffs last year? The first two games were blowouts and Jokic had serious foul problems, the next 3 were close but Jokic suffered with foul trouble in Game 5. He was playing 38 MPG in games 3 and 4 and 32 in Game 5 (with serious foul trouble).

Yes I watched them, I also remember in game 4 he was subbed out for defensive purposes, which didn't happen to LeBron in 07, or ever. The Cavs beat the Nets by double digits in 3 of their 6 games, and LeBron still played 44 minutes per game in that series, because the team was utterly awful without him on the floor.

Cavs won games vs the Nets by

4
10 (was a 4 point game with just under 2 minutes to go)
2
16 (lebron played 38:53 due to the blow out)

[dhsilv2]

The Cavs were 4th defensively, stop trying to paint them out to be the 04 Pistons on that end, they were a scrappy defensive team that couldn't play their best defenders when the games actually meant something. It's why Gibson and Pavlovic eventually started, Eric Snow averaged 4.5ppg that season and started 45 games before they figured out that maybe they should go with Pavlovic, and just stop and think about that for 1 second, Pavlovic was a better option than him.


Perfectly fitting players placed around LeBron? Hughes shot 33% from three, Eric Snow shot 0%, he didn't make a three all season and this is your definition of "perfectly fitted". The depths you guys go to prop up Jokic is incredible, Monte Morris, Will Barton and Aaron Gordon would have started over all those Cavs players, they are better.

And we are now hearing about how being 4th in defense is not elite. That team for 2007 was a very solid and competent group. I've been listening to people stupidly insult that team for 15 years and you think I've just decided to do it now because of Jokic? Stupid is just that. Stupid. And thinking relative to the league that Jokic last year had more help than Lebron in 2007...

Categorizing the 07 team as very good is laughable, they weren't even healthy at the time they made the finals, they just caught lightning in a bottle which was LeBron going supernova against the Pistons. I don't know what you've been up to the last 15 years, nor do I really care. You tried to paint that team out as being built well around LeBron when people at the time knew it was a poor fitting team, they wanted Michael Redd and settled for Hughes. LeBron was a big reason why they were so good on defense, he wasn't the reason their offense was bad that was a lack of talent on his team, you however can definitely place blame on Jokic for the Nuggets playoff defense. That is the real difference between their circumstances, and the fact that Gordon, Barton and Monte are better than Pavlovic, Zydrunas and Gibson.

People felt that Lebron didn't get GOOD enough players around him. Nobody was questioning if they were placing players VERY specifically around Lebrons skills.

And even if Gordon, Barton, and Monte are better, they are not better relative to the leagues they are in.

You're also leaving off some of the most important players on that Cav's team. Varejao was especially important for that team. Even Gooden was very solid in the playoffs.

Meanwhile Barton was worse than anyone we just listed off in last year's playoffs. Gordon was also worse than EVERYONE listed above, in the playoffs. Of everyone who played at least 100 minutes in the playoffs for the Nuggets last year the only guy with a BPM over -1 was Monte Morris. The cav's rotation (7) only Hughes and Pavlovic were worse than -1. With Big Z, Varejao, and Gibson all positive.