Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5?

[nikster]

lebron had to leave and recruit two hof'ers.
he had, at times, top10 or top5 teams in defense, 3pt%, 2pt %, stls, anf tov @ heat and @cavs
he had bosh, miller, wade, battier pat riley, spoelstra, allen, love, irving, frye, smith, korver, harris, thompson. he had the best rosters for his game, ie "i can carry the team just give me talent to spread the floor and i will be unstaoppable"

and yet there's enuf to show how lucky lebron was with all four rings to be quite honest

he had to beat TWO young inexperienced teams, okc and miami, who had the spurs' and bucks' number, and if memory serves both the bucks and spurs were not only the best teams that year but were also undefeated against the lebron teams

the bubble ring and the improbably come from behind win vs gsw.

he forced star players to play outside their strengths, and cajoled them.

but bottom line, luck played a huge part in ALL four rings. and tim still won one more ring than lbj and they overlap enough that comparisons can be made

Always find it funny when posters pad Lebrons teammates lists with players like Battier and Frye. Like we're gonna be talking about Jokics roster 5 years from now and complaining it was stacked because they had former all defensive team player Deandre Jordan off the bench

[Mickey8]

Duncan all the way, he didn't jump from team to team, joining other big stars. He was on one team all of his career, they were building organically and Duncan was the man on those teams.

[nikster]

To the people pointing out that LeBron made three different teams title contenders... do you guys understand how hard it is to succeed in the West that Duncan played in throughout his career? You guys are acting like it was a cake walk for him. The West from 2002-2014 was basically a bloodbath. Hell, in 2016 the Spurs had 67 wins that year and the Warriors still had six more wins than them, and they weren't even the ones who eliminated them.

Repeats (and even threepeats for that matter) are very hard to accomplish. I think that's something a lot of people (myself included) put a lot of stock into with LeBron's title wins in Miami, especially when you factor in how great LeBron was in both of those series. And yeah, Duncan wasn't the FMVP in all of his title wins (and hell, he probably shouldn't have won it in 2005 either). LeBron on the other hand was.

But let's put something into perspective for a second. How many times did the Spurs benefit from game changing free agent moves or trades that ultimately changed the outcome of their team? I'd be willing to be that the number of instances you could count are on one hand. And hell, off the top of my head I can't really think of any. Parker and Manu were guys that the Spurs developed with their own system. These weren't big named players who joined their team in free agency. Danny Green was an important player for the Spurs but he came to that team as a second year player out of Cleveland who didn't get any playing time with said team. We all know the story with Kawhi, who only got to San Antonio in the first place because they took a risk and traded George Hill, who was also an important player for the Spurs.

Going off that, you're looking at a team whose biggest FA pickups are the likes of... Robert Horry (EDIT: right after I hit submit I immediately remembered that the Spurs got LeMarcus Aldridge in FA, so... oops). Granted, Horry was a key factor to SA surviving against the Pistons in 05, but if that's the most notable FA pickup they have, that's pretty telling of how consistent of a system they ran. They didn't trade their first overall pick to get Kevin Love on their team. They didn't trade multiple pieces away to get Anthony Davis. The best they got was basically the equivalent of when Miami got Ray Allen. Just think about that for a moment. They had a system in place that was remarkably consistent for a very long time. It's a testament of how great of a player Tim Duncan really was, and why he's a top ten player in the history of the NBA. LeBron was the better player, and he has the most notable ring with 2016, but Duncan's five will always impress me more than LeBron's four.

Feel like these arguments give Duncan credit for things the Spurs front office is entirely responsible for. Obviously Duncan was vital to their consistency but they arent winning 5 titles if the Spurs dont get 2 massive steals in the draft with Tony Parker at 28 and Manu at 57, or making that key trade for Kawhi. Its the same thing we saw with Curry and Klay/Dray. Drafted 2 steals at the right time whos game complimented their star and whos timing of careers fit perfectly.

I understand Duncans rings are more impressive given what the front has done, but individually I dont really see and argument for Duncan over Lebron

[nikster]

For me it's the blatant lies they spew to discredit Duncan's achievements which is laughable. Such as saying Duncan was not the best player on the '07 team when stats clearly show he was or them saying he was carried by Kawhi in the '14 playoffs when Kawhi was averaging just 13-7 during that playoff run is laughable.

I'd you're going by raw stats Duncan just averaged 16 and 9 on 56 TS% in the 14 playoff run. That was an impressive rum because of what the Spurs did as a team, not what anybody, including Duncan, did individually

Spurs were like the '04 PIstons during that title run. I feel their stars were almost all equal in value much like the '04 Pistons.

Well thats kinda my point. I feel like that speaks as much to the strength of their front office and coaching as it does to Duncan. So how do you separate the achievement of the franchise vs the individual

[PedroFlu]

Lebron played 7 years for a franchise with no direction and no assets. People talk like he didnt even try. Would Duncan have led those teams to titles?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Duncan's 5 is more impressive, as great as LeBron is, he is a mercenary that just found teams set up to win every couple years, and when they looked like they needed a rebuild he was out. Any of the greats could do that if they had done the same, credit to him for breaking the mold, but no credit for him against guys who exemplified winning no matter the roster configuration.



Duncan won a title in 3 different decades, that is by far a greater accomplishment.

[dWadeOwnzYou]

This question is an insult to the great Tim Duncan. Please lock this up moderator.

[Lalouie]

lebron had to leave and recruit two hof'ers.
he had, at times, top10 or top5 teams in defense, 3pt%, 2pt %, stls, anf tov @ heat and @cavs
he had bosh, miller, wade, battier pat riley, spoelstra, allen, love, irving, frye, smith, korver, harris, thompson. he had the best rosters for his game, ie "i can carry the team just give me talent to spread the floor and i will be unstaoppable"

and yet there's enuf to show how lucky lebron was with all four rings to be quite honest

he had to beat TWO young inexperienced teams, okc and miami, who had the spurs' and bucks' number, and if memory serves both the bucks and spurs were not only the best teams that year but were also undefeated against the lebron teams

the bubble ring and the improbably come from behind win vs gsw.

he forced star players to play outside their strengths, and cajoled them.

but bottom line, luck played a huge part in ALL four rings. and tim still won one more ring than lbj and they overlap enough that comparisons can be made

Always find it funny when posters pad Lebrons teammates lists with players like Battier and Frye. Like we're gonna be talking about Jokics roster 5 years from now and complaining it was stacked because they had former all defensive team player Deandre Jordan off the bench

everything is relative. lebron stacked his team at THAT time. enough so that everybody made a big deal about it and the future was rosey,,,like 7 rings rosey. so rosey they started planning for the parade already. the teams, especially miami, were always in the top5 or 10 in every category that mattered

just because things didn't turn out as expected and lebron got lucky with all 4 rings doesn't make it any less so that lebron stacked his teams EXACTLY the way he wanted........all vets no rookies, shooters to park around the perimeter so that he could operate freely in any manner that he wanted. it was HIS ideal setup. as you brought up battier and frye, shane was a 38% 3shooter who shot 40% with miami and was a solid defensive player. frye was also a 38% 3 shooter

on the matter of tim, in a similar vein tim had exactly what he need, so to the matter of who had the greater accomplichment, well tim had 5rings and lebron had 4. tim fulfilled expectations and lebron didn't.

[dc]

Duncan's 5 is more impressive, as great as LeBron is, he is a mercenary that just found teams set up to win every couple years, and when they looked like they needed a rebuild he was out. Any of the greats could do that if they had done the same, credit to him for breaking the mold, but no credit for him against guys who exemplified winning no matter the roster configuration.

Should be noted that Duncan himself was "this" close to leaving for Orlando in 2000 to team up with other stars. He nearly beat Lebron to the punch for team up culture. And he actually did the same thing in 2000 as Lebron in 2007 after his rookie deal expired: He took the shortest possible extension with his home team, a 3 year deal.

He did that because he was looking out after his own interests. The Spurs in 2000 were an old team without any assets so he didn't want to commit long term. But he was loyal to Pop and he wanted to give the organization a chance to see what they could put around him. And the organization came through. Ginobili, Parker and Bowen came over within the next couple years and they had their core moving forward.

The Cavs in the few years following Lebron's 1st extension weren't able to generate any kind of core. Had the Spurs been unable to find the guys they did, Duncan would've likely left them in 2003.

[xAIRNESSx]

Duncan has more rings, but LeBron has more Finals MVPs across 3 different teams with 3 different coaches. Every time LeBron went to a new team, they had missed the playoffs the year before.

That's more impressive.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Duncan's 5 is more impressive, as great as LeBron is, he is a mercenary that just found teams set up to win every couple years, and when they looked like they needed a rebuild he was out. Any of the greats could do that if they had done the same, credit to him for breaking the mold, but no credit for him against guys who exemplified winning no matter the roster configuration.

Should be noted that Duncan himself was "this" close to leaving for Orlando in 2000 to team up with other stars. He nearly beat Lebron to the punch for team up culture. And he actually did the same thing in 2000 as Lebron in 2007 after his rookie deal expired: He took the shortest possible extension with his home team, a 3 year deal.

He did that because he was looking out after his own interests. The Spurs in 2000 were an old team without any assets so he didn't want to commit long term. But he was loyal to Pop and he wanted to give the organization a chance to see what they could put around him. And the organization came through. Ginobili, Parker and Bowen came over within the next couple years and they had their core moving forward.

The Cavs in the few years following Lebron's 1st extension weren't able to generate any kind of core. Had the Spurs been unable to find the guys they did, Duncan would've likely left them in 2003.

Maybe he would have left, but at the end of the day he didn't. The fact that LeBron has done it a few times is more damning, there's nothing wrong with leaving in free agency, but the way LeBron has done it is pretty obvious. Find teams with the most assets, force trades when you get there, then leave when the bill comes due on trading away all those future assets.

[xAIRNESSx]

I find it wild that people think LeBron going to Cleveland and LA were sure fire great situations.

He primarily went back to Cleveland to try and fix his image and he went to the Lakers because he wanted to live in LA.

Both teams were perennially in the bottom of the standings before he joined.

[nikster]

lebron had to leave and recruit two hof'ers.
he had, at times, top10 or top5 teams in defense, 3pt%, 2pt %, stls, anf tov @ heat and @cavs
he had bosh, miller, wade, battier pat riley, spoelstra, allen, love, irving, frye, smith, korver, harris, thompson. he had the best rosters for his game, ie "i can carry the team just give me talent to spread the floor and i will be unstaoppable"

and yet there's enuf to show how lucky lebron was with all four rings to be quite honest

he had to beat TWO young inexperienced teams, okc and miami, who had the spurs' and bucks' number, and if memory serves both the bucks and spurs were not only the best teams that year but were also undefeated against the lebron teams

the bubble ring and the improbably come from behind win vs gsw.

he forced star players to play outside their strengths, and cajoled them.

but bottom line, luck played a huge part in ALL four rings. and tim still won one more ring than lbj and they overlap enough that comparisons can be made

Always find it funny when posters pad Lebrons teammates lists with players like Battier and Frye. Like we're gonna be talking about Jokics roster 5 years from now and complaining it was stacked because they had former all defensive team player Deandre Jordan off the bench

everything is relative. lebron stacked his team at THAT time. enough so that everybody made a big deal about it and the future was rosey,,,like 7 rings rosey. so rosey they started planning for the parade already. the teams, especially miami, were always in the top5 or 10 in every category that mattered

just because things didn't turn out as expected and lebron got lucky with all 4 rings doesn't make it any less so that lebron stacked his teams EXACTLY the way he wanted........all vets no rookies, shooters to park around the perimeter so that he could operate freely in any manner that he wanted. it was HIS ideal setup. as you brought up battier and frye, shane was a 38% 3shooter who shot 40% with miami and was a solid defensive player. frye was also a 38% 3 shooter

on the matter of tim, in a similar vein tim had exactly what he need, so to the matter of who had the greater accomplichment, well tim had 5rings and lebron had 4. tim fulfilled expectations and lebron didn't.

Battiers 6 points on 34% from 3 was so vital to their title runs. Frye was so Important he was basically completely benched in both NBA finals. It's just not fair Lebron had such important role players on his teams

[dc]

Maybe he would have left, but at the end of the day he didn't. The fact that LeBron has done it a few times is more damning, there's nothing wrong with leaving in free agency, but the way LeBron has done it is pretty obvious. Find teams with the most assets, force trades when you get there, then leave when the bill comes due on trading away all those future assets.

Don't get me wrong, Lebron has always been about his own corporate brand and more of a mercenary (up until he got to LA anyways) than Duncan. Guy probably would've left Cleveland eventually even had he won a ring in his 1st Cavs stint, but he would've definitely stayed longer had they been better run.

Duncan just ended up on a better run franchise. I'm a Warrior fan and I have no doubt in my mind Curry would've left, one way or another, after his 1st extension had Chris Cohan remained the owner. Neither of those guys, as loyal as they are, would've stuck around a poorly run franchise.

[Flash4thewin]

It's almost like this is being broken down to penalize a person for taking personal responsibility and using the rules in his favor. Thats called leadership. One player had a great organization in place, the other one had a joke one. We have the Boozer situation, the horrible draft picks etc. You could replace Lebron with Duncan or Jordan and those Cavs teams are not winning a ring. If anything those two players would have left earlier. Just look at KG, he trusted the Wolves to put a team around him, he never won anything until he was gifted to he Celtics. Had KG had the mental fortitude to leave his ranking and reputation would be different today.

[nikster]

Duncan's 5 is more impressive, as great as LeBron is, he is a mercenary that just found teams set up to win every couple years, and when they looked like they needed a rebuild he was out. Any of the greats could do that if they had done the same, credit to him for breaking the mold, but no credit for him against guys who exemplified winning no matter the roster configuration.

Should be noted that Duncan himself was "this" close to leaving for Orlando in 2000 to team up with other stars. He nearly beat Lebron to the punch for team up culture. And he actually did the same thing in 2000 as Lebron in 2007 after his rookie deal expired: He took the shortest possible extension with his home team, a 3 year deal.

He did that because he was looking out after his own interests. The Spurs in 2000 were an old team without any assets so he didn't want to commit long term. But he was loyal to Pop and he wanted to give the organization a chance to see what they could put around him. And the organization came through. Ginobili, Parker and Bowen came over within the next couple years and they had their core moving forward.

The Cavs in the few years following Lebron's 1st extension weren't able to generate any kind of core. Had the Spurs been unable to find the guys they did, Duncan would've likely left them in 2003.

Maybe he would have left, but at the end of the day he didn't. The fact that LeBron has done it a few times is more damning, there's nothing wrong with leaving in free agency, but the way LeBron has done it is pretty obvious. Find teams with the most assets, force trades when you get there, then leave when the bill comes due on trading away all those future assets.

So he used his free agency to go to teams that made sense for his career,and the teams made win now moves which is what virtually everyone does when you've got an all time great on your roster and you need more support to bring you into contention (also what significant future assets did they give up? Both Miami and Cleveland bounced back very well after his departure).

[JXL]

Anybody find it ironic that media/fans bring up Jordan's Finals record when comparing him to the other greats but then just dismiss Duncan's Finals record when it comes to ranking him to others. Duncan actually has a better Finals record than Lebron, Kobe, and Shaq but you rarely hear anybody cite that as reason why he should be ranked over all of them. Odd.

Right? Timmy's 5-1 in the Finals, and could've had 6-0 if not for free throws and bad positioning for a rebound by Boris Diaw.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[KGtabake]

Duncan's 5 are more impressive than LeBron's 4, MJ's 6, Kobe's 5, Shaq's 4.

[DimesandKnicks]

The one who played for a first class organization or the one who won two rings with two of the worst front offices I’ve seen in recent memory. It’s easy to stay with one organization when it’s top notch. I’d hope most of you would leave a job if the organization was ****

[DonaldSanders]

Anybody find it ironic that media/fans bring up Jordan's Finals record when comparing him to the other greats but then just dismiss Duncan's Finals record when it comes to ranking him to others. Duncan actually has a better Finals record than Lebron, Kobe, and Shaq but you rarely hear anybody cite that as reason why he should be ranked over all of them. Odd.

Right? Timmy's 5-1 in the Finals, and could've had 6-0 if not for free throws and bad positioning for a rebound by Boris Diaw.

Duncan is very overlooked at this point. To me there is something to be said for being the backbone that the entire organization builds around.

Lebron played 7 years for a franchise with no direction and no assets. People talk like he didnt even try. Would Duncan have led those teams to titles?

No, but LeBron then swung the pendulum the other direction; I think Duncan would have the same # of chips as LeBron given the same teams for career. It's possible Duncan loses 2016 but wins in 2011.

People don't care as much about those 7 years because of what LeBron did after. Honestly I think his mistake was when he left the Heat. He had a good organization, structure, and coach finally. He should have kept building in Miami but he went back to Cleveland because they accumulated assets while LeBron was playing for the Heat and the Heat were depleted.