Is this the greatest peak of all-time?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Did you watch the Nuggets in the playoffs last year? The first two games were blowouts and Jokic had serious foul problems, the next 3 were close but Jokic suffered with foul trouble in Game 5. He was playing 38 MPG in games 3 and 4 and 32 in Game 5 (with serious foul trouble).

Yes I watched them, I also remember in game 4 he was subbed out for defensive purposes, which didn't happen to LeBron in 07, or ever. The Cavs beat the Nets by double digits in 3 of their 6 games, and LeBron still played 44 minutes per game in that series, because the team was utterly awful without him on the floor.

Cavs won games vs the Nets by

4
10 (was a 4 point game with just under 2 minutes to go)
2
16 (lebron played 38:53 due to the blow out)

Oh no, I made a mistake as egregious as Daniel Gibson (Or Donyell Marshall) as a 3 & D player


LeBron averaged 44 minutes per game in that series, 44.7mpg for the entire playoffs, they had another blowout against the Pistons they won by 16, he played 46:12 minutes in that one.

Also, why don't you want to say why he was in foul trouble? I mean I know why, but I'd like to see you dance around it.

[JonFromVA]

Haven’t won anything

Lookin like he can be used as an example next time you wanna compare rings vs mvps

Rings are team accomplishments fwiw. I would never hold it against Jokic for not winning a title when he's played with 0 all-stars in his 8 year career. Hell, even guys like LeBron who I consider serious floor raisers and capable of carrying teams to titles played with all-stars and won nothing until he basically teamed up with 2 other all-stars and countless HOFers...

LeBron closed out the Pistons in the ECF when he was 22 years old. So, even short of winning it all, it's expected that a superstar will close out big games. Otherwise what does that gaudy .699 TS% really mean if he can't turn it in to wins when big games are on the line?

I do think it's really hard for a big man to carry a team on his back. I mean it's not like we've seen another Wilt who at over 7ft could easily play 48mpg. When the Warriors eliminated the Nuggets last season, Jokic scored an efficient 30 pts in 32 minutes and also had 5 fouls on him.

Steph had 30pts too, but he played nearly 38 minutes.

Jokic was on the floor for less than 7 minutes of that do or die 4th quarter. He was -2 in the quarter, while the Nuggets were -12 in what turned out to be a 4pt loss.
Well?

If he physically can't do it or can't do it without fouling out ... then he simply isn't "that guy".

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Meanwhile Barton was worse than anyone we just listed off in last year's playoffs. Gordon was also worse than EVERYONE listed above, in the playoffs. Of everyone who played at least 100 minutes in the playoffs for the Nuggets last year the only guy with a BPM over -1 was Monte Morris. The cav's rotation (7) only Hughes and Pavlovic were worse than -1. With Big Z, Varejao, and Gibson all positive.

Every one of those players was playing with LeBron, who was on the floor for almost 45 minutes per game Using BPM from a team where the star player is essentially always on the floor is hilarious.

[Lakers In 5]

2000 Shaquille O’Neal to this day still reigns supreme.

[DonaldSanders]

Haven’t won anything

Lookin like he can be used as an example next time you wanna compare rings vs mvps

According to some people, winning should not matter, its how you play the game. For example, putting up 35/8/10 and losing is better than putting up 24/6/4 and winning.

I can't understand that logic. It doesn't matter what stats you put up if you lose.....

I'm glad we're moving past "must have X number of titles" to be considered a great, but I feel like we're starting to move too far in the other direction now. I read the Player Comparisons board sometimes and people just post statlines and say "that means this guy was better" -- yet they didn't win very much. Take Chris Paul; I love Thinking Basketball, but they listed him as having a "high range" of top 10 all time and my jaw hit the floor. If you watched all of CP3's playoffs he got a little unlucky, but he also definitely had the squads to do better than making it past the 2nd round twice and he clearly came up short in many games. Some people rack up stats for most of the playoffs, then blow key games. Consistency matters as it delivers playoff wins, and that's part of why Jordan is still #1 to so many.

At a certain point winning has to matter, it's the whole point of the game. Now Jokic knows this, and that's part of why I like him. I genuinely think he'd do whatever it takes to win. But I think some fans think you can bench race ATGs without watching the games or requiring them to win, and that leads to some strange outcomes.

I do think we'll look back later and laugh "remember when we needed to see Jokic perform in the playoffs to believe he would be a top 15 all time player?" -- he's going to do it at some point, I believe in him. But I'm not crowning him anything before he does it.

[dhsilv2]

Yes I watched them, I also remember in game 4 he was subbed out for defensive purposes, which didn't happen to LeBron in 07, or ever. The Cavs beat the Nets by double digits in 3 of their 6 games, and LeBron still played 44 minutes per game in that series, because the team was utterly awful without him on the floor.

Cavs won games vs the Nets by

4
10 (was a 4 point game with just under 2 minutes to go)
2
16 (lebron played 38:53 due to the blow out)

Oh no, I made a mistake as egregious as Daniel Gibson (Or Donyell Marshall) as a 3 & D player


LeBron averaged 44 minutes per game in that series, 44.7mpg for the entire playoffs, they had another blowout against the Pistons they won by 16, he played 46:12 minutes in that one.

Also, why don't you want to say why he was in foul trouble? I mean I know why, but I'd like to see you dance around it.

I had a comma, I just omitted typing Marshal. I called Gibson correctly what he was. A 3 point shooter. And yes, lebron played 46 minutes in a game that was floating around 12-15 points in the 4th quarter. The games themselves were closer than the ending scores you're citing. We all of course also know stars play less minutes today. And you're continuing to ignore the obvious foul trouble issue.

Jokic was being played like the coach wanted him to play 38 a game which in today's league is reasonably close enough to 44 in 2007. And remember Lebron is flat out better conditioned than Jokic.

Bowen for the spurs played 41.8 against the cavs in 2007
Price Played 44 against the cavs
Billups played 43.8
Vince, Jefferson, and Kidd played around 42 a game against the cavs
Jameson and Daniels played over 43 each vs the cavs

Vs the Nuggets the top minute guy for the Warriors was Curry at 34.5

Vs the warriors Ja tried to play 38, but was injured. Bane was second on the griz at 33.3
Luka is the first "iron man" against the warriors at 38 which again is what Jokic would have done had he been able to stay out of foul trouble.
And yes Boston did have Tatum playing 40.7. The ONLY guy in a series against the warriors to play 40 last year. Which might explain his shooting in that series.

The argument that Lebron played crazy minutes because of how bad his team was, simply ignores the two eras. Both guys were being asked to play league leading level minutes, but in Jokic's case a huge blowout plus two games with serious foul trouble lowered his minutes.

[Johnny Bball]

Also has anyone ever had such good advanced stats through the first 8 years?

Everyone looking for the next MJ, the next LeBron...but they're looking in the wrong place.

Jokic is really H.I.M

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season.html

Not realy close.

[dooki667]

Haven’t won anything

Lookin like he can be used as an example next time you wanna compare rings vs mvps

Rings are team accomplishments fwiw.

That's what losers tell themselves to feel better. In basketball, like Hockey, a single player like a Gretzky or an MJ can win championships as long as you put a few bodies around them. Heck, the very best have even won titles on non-title teams in soccer, which is far more team oriented than basketball. Funny how the very best players seem to win championships in every sport despite it being a team game.

The Great ones oilers teams was friggin stacked bro. Like stacked stacked 3rd all time pts mark messier 1st all time Wayne Gretzky WHAT he left them and never won again buddy not only that but he leaves THEY WIN AGAIN I don't think Wayne proves your point

[TheLand13]

Better than LeBarn ever was that's for sure.

More stupid troll takes from you. Shouldn't be surprised though.

Big Z was a catch and shoot big by that era's standards. He could score in the post. They brought in Hughs as a secondary ball handler and scorer (he sucked at it with lebron, but he was on paper a fine fit), Gibson was a 3 point shooter, 3&D stretch, Jones was right off of leading the league in 3 point shooting.

They mostly under achieved offensively with lebron, but that team was absolutely hand selected to play off lebron with shooters all around, a scoring competent big man, and a guy coming off of an allstar season at a score first smaller guard to help with the ball handling.

The **** what?

Hold up.



dhsilv2. My guy. You are better than this. Come on now. You really going to make me have to do this to you?

Alright alright, let's start from the beginning.

First off, Big Z, a catch and shoot big... Big Z was not a catch and shoot big even by those days standards. He rarely ever took long distances shots unless they were from the corner, which was always his sweet spot, and even then he wasn't very good at them. Not to mention, he had a very slow shooting release so unless he was REALLY wide open, he usually wouldn't take the shot. He normally operated near the basket, it was very hard to take advantage of his shooting abilities at that point in his career.

Did you REALLY just call Daniel Gibson a 3/D stretch? DANIEL GIBSON?

THIS GUY?





In what god forsaken way was this man a 3/D stretch player? Did you just throw in the D part to try to be cute? This guy was on the same team as Mo Williams and even Mo was a better defender than him. The entire point of Boobie was for him to be a three point shooter, that's it. That's literally all there was to his game. Outside of his three point shooting, there was literally nothing to his game.

Jones was a great three point shooter... yeah alright, good for him.

Enough of this. Outside of LeBron, there was no one on the team who could effectively run the offense. Outside of LeBron, there was no one who could help with scoring. It's not as simple as surrounding LeBron with three point shooters. You need people who know how to create, score on their own and help run the offense. It's why Mo Williams felt like a god send because he could do all three. Defensively, there wasn't anyone on that team that was elite. Hughes could have been, but injuries prevented him from not only being effective at that end but also being an effective offensive player like we had hoped.

People are really acting like that Cavaliers team was elite defensively... yeah they were good, maybe even great, but you know what? You take away LeBron and what is that team on both ends of the floor? One riddled with nothing but one dimensional players, which is practically a cardinal sin. I don't care if they were a great defensive team, their best defensive players outside LeBron couldn't do a damn thing on offense.

We really in here trying to argue that Jokic's teammates were worse than LeBron's from 07. Good god. That's like arguing that Jordan had a terrible supporting cast in the 90s (something the troll at the very top tried arguing at one point).

[JonFromVA]

Cavs won games vs the Nets by

4
10 (was a 4 point game with just under 2 minutes to go)
2
16 (lebron played 38:53 due to the blow out)

Oh no, I made a mistake as egregious as Daniel Gibson (Or Donyell Marshall) as a 3 & D player


LeBron averaged 44 minutes per game in that series, 44.7mpg for the entire playoffs, they had another blowout against the Pistons they won by 16, he played 46:12 minutes in that one.

Also, why don't you want to say why he was in foul trouble? I mean I know why, but I'd like to see you dance around it.

I had a comma, I just omitted typing Marshal. I called Gibson correctly what he was. A 3 point shooter. And yes, lebron played 46 minutes in a game that was floating around 12-15 points in the 4th quarter. The games themselves were closer than the ending scores you're citing. We all of course also know stars play less minutes today. And you're continuing to ignore the obvious foul trouble issue.

Jokic was being played like the coach wanted him to play 38 a game which in today's league is reasonably close enough to 44 in 2007. And remember Lebron is flat out better conditioned than Jokic.

Bowen for the spurs played 41.8 against the cavs in 2007
Price Played 44 against the cavs
Billups played 43.8
Vince, Jefferson, and Kidd played around 42 a game against the cavs
Jameson and Daniels played over 43 each vs the cavs

Vs the Nuggets the top minute guy for the Warriors was Curry at 34.5

Vs the warriors Ja tried to play 38, but was injured. Bane was second on the griz at 33.3
Luka is the first "iron man" against the warriors at 38 which again is what Jokic would have done had he been able to stay out of foul trouble.
And yes Boston did have Tatum playing 40.7. The ONLY guy in a series against the warriors to play 40 last year. Which might explain his shooting in that series.

The argument that Lebron played crazy minutes because of how bad his team was, simply ignores the two eras. Both guys were being asked to play league leading level minutes, but in Jokic's case a huge blowout plus two games with serious foul trouble lowered his minutes.

Or maybe you just made a terrific argument why teams with a superstar should slow their pace?

I fear JB Bickerstaff is going to run Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland in to a season ending injury because of how hard he leans on them, but he does have the Cavs playing at the slowest pace in the league.

Getting both of them used to playing an entire 2nd half AND if necessary an OT may very well make a difference in a playoff game if they don't break.

[og15]

No of course not. He hasn’t been at the highest peaks of guys like LeBron


However I think Jokic could end up being the most consistently impactful player ever. His rebounding, and passing is unreal every game, and his touch and finishing is more consistent than I’ve ever seen.

Players more reliant on long range shooting and dribbling will be more prone to turnovers and bad shooting nights

How many horrible games has Jokic had in the last 2 seasons? Less than 5?



Guys like KD/Curry/Doncic/LeBron might have an off night 20% of the time give or take. Jokic might be 5%

This would all depend on how you are defining horrible game. Are you going by poor shooting efficiency, high turnovers, low individual Ortg?

For example, last season, Jokic had 11 games (out of 74) with an Ortg under 105, 5 under 100 Ortg. He had 11 games with a TS% under 50% with 4 of those under 45%. That's REALLY good.

LeBron is a pretty consistent guy too, so let's use him with the same parameters. LeBron had 13 games (out of 56) with an Ortg under 105, 10 under 100 Ortg. He had 8 games with a TS% under 50% with 4 of those under 45%. That's also really good

So Jokic was under 105 individual Ortg 15% of the time, LeBron was 23% of the time. Jokic was under 50% TS 15% of the time again, LeBron 14% of the time.

LeBron of course is at the top levels of consistency, another perimeter guy like that is Kawhi, and he's more mistake free than LeBron as a whole.

In 20-21, Kawhi had 6 games (out of 52) with 105 Ortg or less, 4 were 100 or less. He had 6 games with a TS% under 50%, 3 were under 45%. So for a guy like Kawhi, 12% of the time Ortg under 105 and 12% of the time TS% under 50%.

This is not some standard, I just chose some cutoffs that seemed reasonable enough to make a comparison.

[dooki667]

Better than LeBarn ever was that's for sure.

More stupid troll takes from you. Shouldn't be surprised though.

Big Z was a catch and shoot big by that era's standards. He could score in the post. They brought in Hughs as a secondary ball handler and scorer (he sucked at it with lebron, but he was on paper a fine fit), Gibson was a 3 point shooter, 3&D stretch, Jones was right off of leading the league in 3 point shooting.

They mostly under achieved offensively with lebron, but that team was absolutely hand selected to play off lebron with shooters all around, a scoring competent big man, and a guy coming off of an allstar season at a score first smaller guard to help with the ball handling.

The **** what?

Hold up.



dhsilv2. My guy. You are better than this. Come on now. You really going to make me have to do this to you?

Alright alright, let's start from the beginning.

First off, Big Z, a catch and shoot big... Big Z was not a catch and shoot big even by those days standards. He rarely ever took long distances shots unless they were from the corner, which was always his sweet spot, and even then he wasn't very good at them. Not to mention, he had a very slow shooting release so unless he was REALLY wide open, he usually wouldn't take the shot. He normally operated near the basket, it was very hard to take advantage of his shooting abilities at that point in his career.

Did you REALLY just call Daniel Gibson a 3/D stretch? DANIEL GIBSON?

THIS GUY?





In what god forsaken way was this man a 3/D stretch player? Did you just throw in the D part to try to be cute? This guy was on the same team as Mo Williams and even Mo was a better defender than him. The entire point of Boobie was for him to be a three point shooter, that's it. That's literally all there was to his game. Outside of his three point shooting, there was literally nothing to his game.

Jones was a great three point shooter... yeah alright, good for him.

Enough of this. Outside of LeBron, there was no one on the team who could effectively run the offense. Outside of LeBron, there was no one who could help with scoring. It's not as simple as surrounding LeBron with three point shooters. You need people who know how to create, score on their own and help run the offense. It's why Mo Williams felt like a god send because he could do all three. Defensively, there wasn't anyone on that team that was elite. Hughes could have been, but injuries prevented him from not only being effective at that end but also being an effective offensive player like we had hoped.

People are really acting like that Cavaliers team was elite defensively... yeah they were good, maybe even great, but you know what? You take away LeBron and what is that team on both ends of the floor? One riddled with nothing but one dimensional players, which is practically a cardinal sin. I don't care if they were a great defensive team, their best defensive players outside LeBron couldn't do a damn thing on offense.

We really in here trying to argue that Jokic's teammates were worse than LeBron's from 07. Good god. That's like arguing that Jordan had a terrible supporting cast in the 90s (something the troll at the very top tried arguing at one point).

Bron was there best defensive player as well imo
and I agree both teams stunk booty both Jokic and Bron are amazing

[threethehardway]

Who is saying Jokic isn't carrying? The topic is "greatest peak of all time" -- this is a VERY high standard. The topic is how big of a carry is he? He's huge, but I'm not putting him above other greats that have carried at clearly higher levels in the playoffs. People are posting his #s in this thread, they are amazing but remember we're talking "greatest" in this thread.

Now will Jokic perform in the playoffs at some point? I absolutely think he will! I will be cheering for him. But I feel like threads like this are quite pre-mature.

Perform in the playoffs and do what? Did he have a legitimate chance to win the last two years? No. So who cares?

I don't know what sport you guys are watching half the time.

It's simple, does Jokic have another top 25 guy on his team? No.

It really don't matter much unless something flukey happens and teams go down with injuries.

Only reason Jokic has a chance this year is because the West sucks and top 25 guys out there are stuck on middling to average to horrible teams.

His team has a shot because he's a basketball god like a young LeBron.

The key to winning in the NBA is getting multiple top 25 guys on a team and steamrolling everyone else. It's always been that way.

Guys that have multiple championships and deep playoff runs had all time greats on their squad.

Jokic doesn't have that. It's just him.

If Jokic was playing with Jayson Tatum, you guys would have a point, but you really don't.

It's just, "He doesn't do it in playoffs!"

Doesn't do it in playoffs with who? Lol, Aaron Gordon?

In the playoffs he's going agains at top 10 defense, he isn't gonna drop 40 20 10 in his sleep like he does when he plays against Charlotte in a 5PM game on Monday that nobody watches.

Jokic getting the Nuggets the 6th seed with the squad he had last year was an accomplishment. He killed the Warriors and stole a game, what did you expect, for him to eliminate them with Aaron Gordon as his second best player?

Lol, like I said before, Jordan played on a squad where the second best perimeter in the league and the best European player was on his team.

Kobe played with the most dominant player since Wilt.

But guys like Jokic and before this LeBron, who are obviously better than everyone else, gotta prove it to guys like you by singlehandedly dragging a team that would be a lottery team without them, across the finish line.

[dhsilv2]

Oh no, I made a mistake as egregious as Daniel Gibson (Or Donyell Marshall) as a 3 & D player


LeBron averaged 44 minutes per game in that series, 44.7mpg for the entire playoffs, they had another blowout against the Pistons they won by 16, he played 46:12 minutes in that one.

Also, why don't you want to say why he was in foul trouble? I mean I know why, but I'd like to see you dance around it.

I had a comma, I just omitted typing Marshal. I called Gibson correctly what he was. A 3 point shooter. And yes, lebron played 46 minutes in a game that was floating around 12-15 points in the 4th quarter. The games themselves were closer than the ending scores you're citing. We all of course also know stars play less minutes today. And you're continuing to ignore the obvious foul trouble issue.

Jokic was being played like the coach wanted him to play 38 a game which in today's league is reasonably close enough to 44 in 2007. And remember Lebron is flat out better conditioned than Jokic.

Bowen for the spurs played 41.8 against the cavs in 2007
Price Played 44 against the cavs
Billups played 43.8
Vince, Jefferson, and Kidd played around 42 a game against the cavs
Jameson and Daniels played over 43 each vs the cavs

Vs the Nuggets the top minute guy for the Warriors was Curry at 34.5

Vs the warriors Ja tried to play 38, but was injured. Bane was second on the griz at 33.3
Luka is the first "iron man" against the warriors at 38 which again is what Jokic would have done had he been able to stay out of foul trouble.
And yes Boston did have Tatum playing 40.7. The ONLY guy in a series against the warriors to play 40 last year. Which might explain his shooting in that series.

The argument that Lebron played crazy minutes because of how bad his team was, simply ignores the two eras. Both guys were being asked to play league leading level minutes, but in Jokic's case a huge blowout plus two games with serious foul trouble lowered his minutes.

Or maybe you just made a terrific argument why teams with a superstar should slow their pace?

I fear JB Bickerstaff is going to run Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland in to a season ending injury because of how hard he leans on them, but he does have the Cavs playing at the slowest pace in the league.

Getting both of them used to playing an entire 2nd half AND if necessary an OT may very well make a difference in a playoff game if they don't break.

Pace doesn't really matter that much. Wilt was fine playing at 20%+++ more pace than today. The difference is 3 point shooting and how teams today move the ball cross court from shooter to shooter to well as we see more this year, drivers and cutters. Defending the half court used mean mostly guarding 15x15 with a lot of defenders just standing around unless their man was in the action. Just a different game, and a far more difficult one on your body, especially on defense.

[dhsilv2]

Better than LeBarn ever was that's for sure.

More stupid troll takes from you. Shouldn't be surprised though.

Big Z was a catch and shoot big by that era's standards. He could score in the post. They brought in Hughs as a secondary ball handler and scorer (he sucked at it with lebron, but he was on paper a fine fit), Gibson was a 3 point shooter, 3&D stretch, Jones was right off of leading the league in 3 point shooting.

They mostly under achieved offensively with lebron, but that team was absolutely hand selected to play off lebron with shooters all around, a scoring competent big man, and a guy coming off of an allstar season at a score first smaller guard to help with the ball handling.

The **** what?

Hold up.


dhsilv2. My guy. You are better than this. Come on now. You really going to make me have to do this to you?

Alright alright, let's start from the beginning.

First off, Big Z, a catch and shoot big... Big Z was not a catch and shoot big even by those days standards. He rarely ever took long distances shots unless they were from the corner, which was always his sweet spot, and even then he wasn't very good at them. Not to mention, he had a very slow shooting release so unless he was REALLY wide open, he usually wouldn't take the shot. He normally operated near the basket, it was very hard to take advantage of his shooting abilities at that point in his career.

Did you REALLY just call Daniel Gibson a 3/D stretch? DANIEL GIBSON?

THIS GUY?


In what god forsaken way was this man a 3/D stretch player? Did you just throw in the D part to try to be cute? This guy was on the same team as Mo Williams and even Mo was a better defender than him. The entire point of Boobie was for him to be a three point shooter, that's it. That's literally all there was to his game. Outside of his three point shooting, there was literally nothing to his game.

Jones was a great three point shooter... yeah alright, good for him.

Enough of this. Outside of LeBron, there was no one on the team who could effectively run the offense. Outside of LeBron, there was no one who could help with scoring. It's not as simple as surrounding LeBron with three point shooters. You need people who know how to create, score on their own and help run the offense. It's why Mo Williams felt like a god send because he could do all three. Defensively, there wasn't anyone on that team that was elite. Hughes could have been, but injuries prevented him from not only being effective at that end but also being an effective offensive player like we had hoped.

People are really acting like that Cavaliers team was elite defensively... yeah they were good, maybe even great, but you know what? You take away LeBron and what is that team on both ends of the floor? One riddled with nothing but one dimensional players, which is practically a cardinal sin. I don't care if they were a great defensive team, their best defensive players outside LeBron couldn't do a damn thing on offense.

We really in here trying to argue that Jokic's teammates were worse than LeBron's from 07. Good god. That's like arguing that Jordan had a terrible supporting cast in the 90s (something the troll at the very top tried arguing at one point).

Man, if you want to post trash people just use hitler. He's far more likeable.

BUt yeah, that comma was there because I was done with Gibson beyond "shoots 3's", was referencing Marshal as a stretch 3&D guy.

That cavs team was elite (mean top 5) defensively that year. Back in 07 when teams struggled to score and everyone just ran stupid iso everything, that team made a lot of sense. It was terrible by making a finals standards, but yes it was head and shoulders better than the team jokic had. A team that made absolutely no sense what so ever. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever will it make sense.

Jokic's team could guard a paper bag or score to save their lives.

[MarcusBrody]

Also has anyone ever had such good advanced stats through the first 8 years?

Everyone looking for the next MJ, the next LeBron...but they're looking in the wrong place.

Jokic is really H.I.M

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season.html

Not realy close.

Win shares try to divvy up team success and reward players playing a lot of minutes on good teams (which is fair in some ways). But they make it hard to compare across eras with different amounts of average play time. Let's look at WS/48 to try to control for that:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_season.html

Looks like it is pretty close...Jokic's current season is 4th all time, just a hair behind Wilt in 63/64 and Kareem in 70/71, and substantially behind Kareem in 71/72.

If we use WS/48, we would conclude that Kareem had the greatest three year peak of all time, with the top two and fifth ranked win share/48 seasons of all time in three consecutive years. Then probably LeBron, who has seasons 6, 8, 13, and 14 all time in four consecutive seasons.

jokic would probably be 3rd in this measure with 4, 12, and 16.

Jordan is hard to rate with this measure. He's likely 4th if we're talking consecutive peak with the 7, 11, and 21 seasons from 88/89 to 90/91, but the second best of his best seasons WS/48 wise was 95/96.

The only other player with a Top 10 WS/48 season is Steph's 15/16, then David Robinson's 93/94 at 15.

So WS/48 isn't a perfect measure, but it does seem to capture what we think of as the GOAT's peaks pretty well. The top 15 seasons ever are essentially a bunch of seasons from Kareem, LeBron, and Jordan's peak and three mega-seasons by next tier all time greats. And then 2 Jokic seasons (and one more at 16).

So I don't think that your measure gives evidence that Jokic is having the highest peak ever, but it certainly paints him as right up there with the GOATs peak wise. LeBron was the only one of the three to have their best WS/48 season at the end of their best three year stretch, so we'll see if Jokic can keep this up and better that 16th all time place showing in 20/21.

[Sedale Threatt]

Cool, this team made the finals -



Gordon is better than every single player on there other than LeBron. Larry Hughes averaged 2.5ppg in the two games he played in the finals, that was supposed to be LeBron's sidekick.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pavloal01.html

He was the starting 2 guard on a finals team

You might has well have said jerry stackhouse is better than Michael Jordan. No sane person could think that last year's Nuggets team was better than the 07 cavs when we account for the eras and needs of teams. That cavs team was an elite defensive team with a bunch of weak, but perfectly fitted players placed around Lebron.

The Cavs were 4th defensively, stop trying to paint them out to be the 04 Pistons on that end, they were a scrappy defensive team that couldn't play their best defenders when the games actually meant something. It's why Gibson and Pavlovic eventually started, Eric Snow averaged 4.5ppg that season and started 45 games before they figured out that maybe they should go with Pavlovic, and just stop and think about that for 1 second, Pavlovic was a better option than him.

Perfectly fitting players placed around LeBron? Hughes shot 33% from three, Eric Snow shot 0%, he didn't make a three all season and this is your definition of "perfectly fitted". The depths you guys go to prop up Jokic is incredible, Monte Morris, Will Barton and Aaron Gordon would have started over all those Cavs players, they are better.

That is a wild-ass stat. An NBA guard going an entire season without making a 3, not all that ridiculously long ago. You couldn't even make a team now with that level of deficiency.

[1993Playoffs]

Man Jokic is becoming overrated.

His defense is nowhere near the GOATS , no deep or signature playoff run smh. And I actually like his game

[Kilroy]

Wilt

[CobraCommander]

Sorry Boston...I love Mr Russell but I met the man...he was shorter than advertised (or shrank a ton when I met him at GeorgeTown) And couldnt handle these guys....sorry...again and no disrespect

If Jokic faced Russell 8 times a season, you could reduce Jokic's counting stats by 15 percent across the board.

Sorry...again and no disrespect.

Eleven rings for a reason and triple doubles isn't one of them.

Touché