Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5?

[PedroFlu]

Duncan is an all time great, absolutely, but we cant ignore the fact it was boring af watching him play.

Btw, if hes got 5 rings which a more valuable than lebrons, what makes lebron grater, since hes top3 in most lista?

[FluLikeSymptoms]

LBJ staying with those moribund Cavs would’ve been a basketball tragedy. The Spurs were 10x the organization the Cavs were.

I think LeBron winning in 3 different environments in 3 different systems with different players is impressive. He’s the common denominator, no question as to what he would’ve done without this player or players or coach or system etc. TD had the perfect career and actually won it different ways as the system changed but LBJ got 3 different teams who weren’t close all the way to the end in short order. Duncan did the same in 99, yeah, this is tough but I’ll go with LBJ’s.

[One Last Shot]

Duncan is an all time great, absolutely, but we cant ignore the fact it was boring af watching him play.

Btw, if hes got 5 rings which a more valuable than lebrons, what makes lebron grater, since hes top3 in most lista?

Maybe because team accomplishment is different from individual accomplishment. Thread is full of LeBron haters who saw another opportunity to thrash him. Think about it, will LeBron ever leave Cleveland if he is playing with 32 years old David Robinson and won a championship in his 2nd year? He wasted 7 years of his prime playing for crap FO of Cavaliers. Free Agents Stars leave or demand a trade because they want to play with better teammates to have a shot to win a championship or they don't like to live in the city anymore and want a new scenery. You barely see a stars leave a team that drafted him to win a title in other team then come back a few years later still in his prime to win a championship for his hometown te that drafted him. It's like he gets tired waiting for Cavs FO to surround him with talent that he made a move to force Cavaliers to tank in the next few years to get the best talent possible in the draft.

[Statlanta]

I don't get the GOAT Coach/Organization argument.

Popovich was a nobody when he started with Duncan. It's not like they had an established coach with 6 rings like Shaq and Kobe had with Phil Jackson. He would have been fired if Duncan started out slow and they repeated the record in the 1997 season.

PATFO has shown their warts like not playing Tim Duncan in Game 6 of 2013 Finals at the end of the game and this post-2018 era of losing.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

I don't get the GOAT Coach/Organization argument.

Popovich was a nobody when he started with Duncan. It's not like they had an established coach with 6 rings like Shaq and Kobe had with Phil Jackson. He would have been fired if Duncan started out slow and they repeated the record in the 1997 season.

PATFO has shown their warts like not playing Tim Duncan in Game 6 of 2013 Finals at the end of the game and this post-2018 era of losing.

He didn’t do anything wrong, we just didn’t see it. Same with prime MJ.

[sam_I_am]

Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5?

5 is a greater accomplishment than 4.

[ty 4191]

Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5?

I'm FAR more impressed with this, than Rings:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/94x8zb/lists_of_franchises_that_have_accomplished_less

Duncan is probably the greatest winner in the history of the NBA. Including Bill Russell.

[JN61]

Only LeBron fans have used the math and logic of less > more in all the all time discussions.

So I think that is the answer here.

[MavsDirk41]

Right? Timmy's 5-1 in the Finals, and could've had 6-0 if not for free throws and bad positioning for a rebound by Boris Diaw.

Duncan is very overlooked at this point. To me there is something to be said for being the backbone that the entire organization builds around.

Lebron played 7 years for a franchise with no direction and no assets. People talk like he didnt even try. Would Duncan have led those teams to titles?

No, but LeBron then swung the pendulum the other direction; I think Duncan would have the same # of chips as LeBron given the same teams for career. It's possible Duncan loses 2016 but wins in 2011.

People don't care as much about those 7 years because of what LeBron did after. Honestly I think his mistake was when he left the Heat. He had a good organization, structure, and coach finally. He should have kept building in Miami but he went back to Cleveland because they accumulated assets while LeBron was playing for the Heat and the Heat were depleted.

I disagree. It was clear LeBron was dragging that Miami team already in the 2013 RS, but specially in 2014. Wade declined dramatically because of his knees, Bosh also had health problems.

Had he stayed, I think he would have lost around 3 yrs of his peak with Bosh's salary on payroll despite the desease and Wade's contract.

He was opportunistic going back to Cle, but he was absolutely on a sinking ship in Miami.

So the team he built was no good anymore cause injuries so leave the team high and dry with your tail between your legs?? Awesome job lol. Nah man i dont think lebron james is bold for his decisions. He doesnt have any devotion to players, fans, organization. Its about him and “his good ole legacy”

[MavsDirk41]

Lebron played 7 years for a franchise with no direction and no assets. People talk like he didnt even try. Would Duncan have led those teams to titles?

He went to join the two arguably top 10 players at that period of time. Then when the ship have started to sink again, he returned back to Cleveland which revamped their roster and when that ship started to sink, he left for LA and they got him another top 10 co star. Lebron is the definition of the ring chaser.

No it isnt. To say he went to LA to ring chase is pathetic. And Cavs return was a good opportunity, but he was the heart and soul of those Cavs teams. Forming a contending team from the scratch that is highly dependable on him can only be considerad ringchasing by angry haters.

Please explain how he formed a team from scratch? Like he did in LA trading half the team for AD lol?

[MavsDirk41]

Duncan is an all time great, absolutely, but we cant ignore the fact it was boring af watching him play.

Btw, if hes got 5 rings which a more valuable than lebrons, what makes lebron grater, since hes top3 in most lista?

So watching james is exciting? Offensively he shoots or passes while everybody else stands around. What am i missing?

[xAIRNESSx]

Only LeBron fans have used the math and logic of less > more in all the all time discussions.

So I think that is the answer here.

Why does LeBron have more Finals MVPs than Duncan?

[PedroFlu]

Duncan is very overlooked at this point. To me there is something to be said for being the backbone that the entire organization builds around.



No, but LeBron then swung the pendulum the other direction; I think Duncan would have the same # of chips as LeBron given the same teams for career. It's possible Duncan loses 2016 but wins in 2011.

People don't care as much about those 7 years because of what LeBron did after. Honestly I think his mistake was when he left the Heat. He had a good organization, structure, and coach finally. He should have kept building in Miami but he went back to Cleveland because they accumulated assets while LeBron was playing for the Heat and the Heat were depleted.

I disagree. It was clear LeBron was dragging that Miami team already in the 2013 RS, but specially in 2014. Wade declined dramatically because of his knees, Bosh also had health problems.

Had he stayed, I think he would have lost around 3 yrs of his peak with Bosh's salary on payroll despite the desease and Wade's contract.

He was opportunistic going back to Cle, but he was absolutely on a sinking ship in Miami.

So the team he built was no good anymore cause injuries so leave the team high and dry with your tail between your legs?? Awesome job lol. Nah man i dont think lebron james is bold for his decisions. He doesnt have any devotion to players, fans, organization. Its about him and “his good ole legacy”

I agree LeBron plays for himself. But newsflash, the entire NBA works that way. Guys play for their own legacy. Giannis was non committal the precise season he won for the first time, I believe. Doncic will evaluate and may leave. Kobe tried to leave. Etc etc. It's a business.

Leaving the Cavs and leaving Miami simply potentialized his accomplishments, and it worked really fine at the end.

[PedroFlu]

He went to join the two arguably top 10 players at that period of time. Then when the ship have started to sink again, he returned back to Cleveland which revamped their roster and when that ship started to sink, he left for LA and they got him another top 10 co star. Lebron is the definition of the ring chaser.

No it isnt. To say he went to LA to ring chase is pathetic. And Cavs return was a good opportunity, but he was the heart and soul of those Cavs teams. Forming a contending team from the scratch that is highly dependable on him can only be considerad ringchasing by angry haters.

Please explain how he formed a team from scratch? Like he did in LA trading half the team for AD lol?

When he arrived at the Lakers, they were low and down, and he didn't impose a thing.LeBron didnt pull a gun on Jeanie and forced her to do anything. The Lakers tanked several years for that. It was in the franchise's best interest to make the deal, precisely because LeBron is (were) that valuable to a team.

[MavsDirk41]

I disagree. It was clear LeBron was dragging that Miami team already in the 2013 RS, but specially in 2014. Wade declined dramatically because of his knees, Bosh also had health problems.

Had he stayed, I think he would have lost around 3 yrs of his peak with Bosh's salary on payroll despite the desease and Wade's contract.

He was opportunistic going back to Cle, but he was absolutely on a sinking ship in Miami.

So the team he built was no good anymore cause injuries so leave the team high and dry with your tail between your legs?? Awesome job lol. Nah man i dont think lebron james is bold for his decisions. He doesnt have any devotion to players, fans, organization. Its about him and “his good ole legacy”

I agree LeBron plays for himself. But newsflash, the entire NBA works that way. Guys play for their own legacy. Giannis was non committal the precise season he won for the first time, I believe. Doncic will evaluate and may leave. Kobe tried to leave. Etc etc. It's a business.

Leaving the Cavs and leaving Miami simply potentialized his accomplishments, and it worked really fine at the end.

Bird, Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Dirk, Kobe stayed with the teams that drafted them and won multiple championships, besides Dirk who of course won one. And you can say well if their organizations didnt build teams around them they would have left too but nobody knows that. All we know is they didnt jump ship. James was a FA and left his teams. It is what it is. But im not impressed by it. Sorry, we agree to disagree then.

[MavsDirk41]

No it isnt. To say he went to LA to ring chase is pathetic. And Cavs return was a good opportunity, but he was the heart and soul of those Cavs teams. Forming a contending team from the scratch that is highly dependable on him can only be considerad ringchasing by angry haters.

Please explain how he formed a team from scratch? Like he did in LA trading half the team for AD lol?

When he arrived at the Lakers, they were low and down, and he didn't impose a thing.LeBron didnt pull a gun on Jeanie and forced her to do anything. The Lakers tanked several years for that. It was in the franchise's best interest to make the deal, precisely because LeBron is (were) that valuable to a team.

I remember there were rumors of a Davis trade to LA during the 2018/2019 season. James and Rich Paul knew James couldnt win with that team so they colluded with Davis while he was still under contract with the Pelicans. How do you think Ball, Ingram, Hart and the other players felt knowing they were on the trade block because James didnt think they were good enough?

[JujitsuFlip]

One guy took 3 teams to the top, the other guy took one. It is LeBron in my eyes.

Do you honestly believe Jordan or Duncan couldn't win championships with other teams in their prime if they team hopped like Lebron did?

Maybe, they didn't do it through, so

[DoctorX]

I don't get the GOAT Coach/Organization argument.

Popovich was a nobody when he started with Duncan. It's not like they had an established coach with 6 rings like Shaq and Kobe had with Phil Jackson. He would have been fired if Duncan started out slow and they repeated the record in the 1997 season.

PATFO has shown their warts like not playing Tim Duncan in Game 6 of 2013 Finals at the end of the game and this post-2018 era of losing.

I agree and I have said it for a while using Pop to discredit Duncan's achievements is lame for a few reasons. First of all, no one uses Phil Jackson, Pat Riley to discredit the achievements of MJ, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe but when it comes to Duncan, they use the GOAT coach card which is stupid. Secondly coaches in the NBA are grossly overrated. I have always felt players influence 95 percent of wins and losses while at best coaches influence 5 percent of wins/losses by substitutions, matchups, timeouts, working the refs. If anything, Pop screwed up his 5 percent by not playing Duncan in the final seconds of the infamous 2013 game 6 Finals lose to the Heat. Another example of Pop screwing up was 2006 by benching Nazr and Rasho and scrapping the twin tower line up that had won him a title a year earlier and deciding to play small ball against a Mavs team that employed a twin tower lineup with Dirk/Dampier which was profoundly stupid. I still remember shaking my head at Pop playing Bruce Bowen at PF against Dirk. One of the dumbest moves ever and ultimately lead to the Spurs losing that series.

My finals reason is Pop is doing **** right now with the Spurs. He's no miracle worker. You give him crap talent and he will get crap results which is the same with any coach. Pop lucked out Duncan did not have a charismatic personality like MJ, Magic, or Shaq or he would have been overshadowed by Duncan instead of benefiting from the inverse.

[JJ_PR]

Whoever says Tim Duncan got his rings without help doesn't know basketball. Not only did he have a fantastic supporting cast, he was also led by one of the best coaches the league has ever seen.

LeBron's coaches when he won: Erik Spoelstra, Tyronn Lue & Frank Vogel. Those are not even close to being as good as Pop.

[DoctorX]

One guy took 3 teams to the top, the other guy took one. It is LeBron in my eyes.

Do you honestly believe Jordan or Duncan couldn't win championships with other teams in their prime if they team hopped like Lebron did?

Maybe, they didn't do it through, so

You could put prime MJ or Duncan on any of the title teams Lebron was on and the results would be the same.