Is this the greatest peak of all-time?

[Lala870]

Nah. This era is very soft.

100%

[DonaldSanders]

It's just, "He doesn't do it in playoffs!"

But guys like Jokic and before this LeBron, who are obviously better than everyone else, gotta prove it to guys like you by singlehandedly dragging a team that would be a lottery team without them, across the finish line.

Nah this is some hyperbole. I'm not saying any of this. He played great in the playoffs so far.

It's just not the greatest of all time.

[DS17]

People that expect all time great players to carry regular guys that are overpaid to glory will never be satisfied.

Jokic plays with a cast of nobodies outside of Jamal Murray, MPJ and Aaron Gordon who are just above average starters.

Jokic third best player at one time was Will Barton.

Will Barton.

You take Jokic off of the Nuggets and it is a lottery team. That's carrying.

IN 2020 he had a healthy Murray, and a jerami grant as his 2nd and 3rd best teammates and my lakers beat them. They were the best team we faced in that playoffs IMO.

[ty 4191]

Also has anyone ever had such good advanced stats through the first 8 years?

Everyone looking for the next MJ, the next LeBron...but they're looking in the wrong place.

Jokic is really H.I.M

It's the greatest 3 year peak of all time, IMO, at least offensively. (2020-2021 through 2022-2023 (including playoffs).

[ty 4191]

How many horrible games has Jokic had in the last 2 seasons? Less than 5?

Guys like KD/Curry/Doncic/LeBron might have an off night 20% of the time give or take. Jokic might be 5%

You're absolutely correct.

Game Score includes basically everything. 10 is league average.

-Jokic: Has had 0 games out of 121 including playoffs (2021-2022 through 2022-2023) with a Game Score of 10 or less.
-Curry: 2015-2016 through 2016-2017 had 18 games with a Game Score below 10 out of 193 games.
-Doncic: The last 2 seasons has had 9 games with a Game Score below 10 out of 125 games played.
-LeBron: 2008-2009 through 2009-2010 had 7 games with a Game Score below 10 out of 182 games played.

[ty 4191]

Greatest offensive peak. Not overall peak.

Greatest 3 year peak in recent history? Maybe all time?

[ty 4191]

The depths you guys go to prop up Jokic is incredible, Monte Morris, Will Barton and Aaron Gordon would have started over all those Cavs players, they are better.

Among all players on both teams who played 1000 minutes (sans LeBron and Jokic):

WS/48:
2021-2022 Nuggets: .089 (1.000 is a league average player)
2006-2007 Cavaliers: Average: .115

PER:
2021-2022 Nuggets: Average: 12.2
2006-2007 Cavs: Average: 13.4

Value Over Replacement Player:
2021-2022 Nuggets: 2.9
2006-2007 Cavs: 6.1

Strength of Schedule:
Nuggets: 21st
Cavs: 30th

The Nuggets had a significantly weaker lineup last year than the Cavaliers had in 2006-2007.

[holdenwait]

this " x is him " garbage is so cringe

[ty 4191]

"Nikola Jokic

Averages from worst games: 18.7 points, 9.6 rebounds, 9.4 assists, 60-37-79 shooting splits, 67 percent true shooting.

You read that statline right—Jokic is averaging a near-triple-double while shooting 60 percent in his worst games. “Bad” Jokic would still rank third in the NBA in assists per game and in the top 10 in true shooting percentage.

The main difference between Jokic performances is how much he shoots, not—as is the case with most other players—how well he shoots. In his best games, he takes advantage of about a dozen extra scoring opportunities, between extra field goals and free throws; otherwise, his numbers are almost the same."

Interesting article on best and worst games from MVP candidates. Embiid is pretty consistent too.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/1/26/23571918/nba-all-star-off-nights-nikola-jokic-luka-doncic

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/1/26/23571918/nba-all-star-off-nights-nikola-jokic-luka-doncic

Averages from worst games: 18.7 points, 9.6 rebounds, 9.4 assists, 60-37-79 shooting splits, 67 percent true shooting.

You read that statline right—Jokic is averaging a near-triple-double while shooting 60 percent in his worst games. “Bad” Jokic would still rank third in the NBA in assists per game and in the top 10 in true shooting percentage.

The main difference between Jokic performances is how much he shoots, not—as is the case with most other players—how well he shoots. In his best games, he takes advantage of about a dozen extra scoring opportunities, between extra field goals and free throws; otherwise, his numbers are almost the same.

Let's put this in full perspective. Jokic in his WORST games this season is averaging 18.7/9.6/9.4 on .600 FG% and 67% TS%.


Here are the only players in NBA history to average 18.7/9.6/9.4 in NBA history (Jokic's WORST games this season) along with their FG% and TS%:

Nikola Jokic 2022-2023: 25.1/11.0/9.9 .629 FG% .699 TS%
Oscar Robertson 1962-1963: 28.3/10.4/9.5 .518 FG% .588 TS%
Oscar Robertson 1963-1964: 33.4/9.9/11.0 .483 FG% .576 TS%
Oscar Robertson 1961-1962: 30.8/12.5/11.4 .478 FG% .554 TS%
Oscar Robertson 1960-1961: 30.5/10.1/9.7 .473 FG% .555 TS%
Russell Westbrook 2017-2018: 25.4/10.1/10.3 .449 FG% .524 TS%
Russell Westbrook 2020-2021: 22.2/11.5/11.7 .439 FG% .509 TS%
Russell Westbrook 2018-2019: 22.9/11.1/10.7 .428 FG% .501 TS%
Russell Westbrook 2016-2017: 31.6/10.7/10.4 .425 FG% .554 TS%

The point?

We're witnessing probably the greatest offensive season in NBA history. I hope everyone is fully appreciating it for what it is, and I hope Jokic can stay healthy...

[California Gold]

The people saying how is this his fault? Well look at the desire…

Kobe demanded to be traded before they got Pau. It forced their front office to go above and beyond. LeBron gave up on believing in his FO in Cleveland and made his own move to Miami to increase his odds to win the whole thing and did. Jordan wasn’t happy with Krause during parts of his career and demanded better.

If Jokic is doing any of this behind closed doors then he might be the only one in NBA history. But I feel like a guy that has given a ton to a franchise and the franchise has done very little to get him a better sidekick has every right to start demanding better or to be traded if his desire to win it all is great. I feel like European players traditionally aren’t this way, and to a fault they are more loyal than they should be. Dirk was fortunate to have decent teammates albeit not another great allstar next to him but never complained about leaving (that I can remember). Luka is going to enter that territory soon and curious to see where his desire for winning sits to force a change.

Giannis was loyal as well but Milwaukee had a decent roster that they made even better on a run to the finals. Now they’re perennial contenders. I do remember the rumors of Giannis wanting to leave for places like Toronto and I believe that put a real scare in Milwaukees brass to do whatever they could to acquire the best players.

I think Jokic is missing that element or if he’s doing it it hasn’t worked. And sure you can say the Nuggets don’t need it at the moment since they’re the top seed and have had a high seed the last few years, but clearly come playoff time once they lose the same arguments are made that he doesn’t have enough talent around him.

[old skool]

I think we confuse ourselves trying to explain why a given way of defining "best" is more or less valid than another way of defining "best".

Ultimately, it gets down to a small number of basics that can provide an undisputed perspective.

Look at total number of Points / Rebounds / Assists for the first seven years of an NBA career (since Jokic is still building his 8th season)

- - - - - - - PTS / REBs / ASTs
Wilt---- 21,486 /13,491 /1,850
Jordan- 16,596 / 3,186 / 3,018
Lebron- 15,251 / 3,861 / 3,810
Jokic--- 10,364 / 5,456 / 3,281

Putting aside convoluted assessments of rings, awards, team advantages or disadvantages, and advanced stats, the "greatest peak of all time" over a 7 or 8 year start to a career can't be someone who scored less than half as many points as Chamberlain, grabbed less than half as many rebounds as Chamberlain and only posted 200 more assists per season as Chamberlain. Chamberlain's sheer level of output blows away any other possible consideration.

People try to denigrate Chamberlain's dominance by ascribing his accomplishments to an era of faster pace or weak competition, but ignore that in 6 of his first 8 seasons he led the NBA in scoring. Ditto for rebounds. And 5 times in those first 8 seasons he was in the top 12 in assists. Jokic is a great player, but claims of "the greatest peak of all time" is nonsense.

[SOA]

I think we confuse ourselves trying to explain why a given way of defining "best" is more or less valid than another way of defining "best".

Ultimately, it gets down to a small number of basics that can provide an undisputed perspective.

Look at total number of Points / Rebounds / Assists for the first seven years of an NBA career (since Jokic is still building his 8th season)

- - - - - - - PTS / REBs / ASTs
Wilt---- 21,486 /13,491 /1,850
Jordan- 16,596 / 3,186 / 3,018
Lebron- 15,251 / 3,861 / 3,810
Jokic--- 10,364 / 5,456 / 3,281

Putting aside convoluted assessments of rings, awards, team advantages or disadvantages, and advanced stats, the "greatest peak of all time" over a 7 or 8 year start to a career can't be someone who scored less than half as many points as Chamberlain, grabbed less than half as many rebounds as Chamberlain and only posted 200 more assists per season as Chamberlain. Chamberlain's sheer level of output blows away any other possible consideration.

People try to denigrate Chamberlain's dominance by ascribing his accomplishments to an era of faster pace or weak competition, but ignore that in 6 of his first 8 seasons he led the NBA in scoring. Ditto for rebounds. And 5 times in those first 8 seasons he was in the top 12 in assists. Jokic is a great player, but claims of "the greatest peak of all time" is nonsense.

And that doesn't account for blocks where Wilt would dwarf anyone's numbers except Russell. Throw in steals and he would have the most steals by a center as well. He statistically speaking is the great player of all time.

[old skool]

We're witnessing probably the greatest offensive season in NBA history. I hope everyone is fully appreciating it for what it is, and I hope Jokic can stay healthy...

That is absurd. The greatest offensive season in NBA history is probably the guy who scored over 4,000 points, enroute to averaging over 2,200 points a season for his entire career.

(By comparison, Jokic is behind last season's pace of 2,004 points, which is his career best.)



Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[hardenASG13]

We're witnessing probably the greatest offensive season in NBA history. I hope everyone is fully appreciating it for what it is, and I hope Jokic can stay healthy...

That is absurd. The greatest offensive season in NBA history is probably the guy who scored over 4,000 points, enroute to averaging over 2,200 points a season for his entire career.

(By comparison, Jokic is behind last season's pace of 2,004 points, which is his career best.)



Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

Ultra efficient 24 on 8-12(lol) for the GOAT against the guy many here claim he is way better than. I'm sure his TS%xWORP score were very good today as Embiid was dropping 48 on them. Jokic had proven nothing and underwhelms when I watch him, for the standards he's given here. He's really slow on D and does alot of dribble handoffs as the centerpiece of their offense.

[ty 4191]

Ultra efficient 24 on 8-12(lol) for the GOAT against the guy many here claim he is way better than. I'm sure his TS%xWORP score were very good today as Embiid was dropping 48 on them. Jokic had proven nothing and underwhelms when I watch him, for the standards he's given here. He's really slow on D and does alot of dribble handoffs as the centerpiece of their offense.

It's one game, brother. Jokic had a "bad" game (for him). He's also coming off 3 missed games with a bad hamstring.

Embiid vs. Jokic, career: 25.7/11.9/3.6 on .453 FG%, .563 TS%

Jokic vs. Embiid, career: 21.9/8.9/7.4 on .509 FG%, .596 TS%

[coastalmarker99]

Jokic is an awful defender who gets owned on that side of the ball in the playoffs.

So no this is not the goat peak.

[Noctilux]

Jokic is the crypto king of numbers.

[ty 4191]

Jokic is an awful defender who gets owned on that side of the ball in the playoffs.

So no this is not the goat peak.

And Wilt folded in the playoffs against Russell. 20-29 team record, 1-6 series record career, vs. Russell, .491 FT%.

You really want to go down this road, Mark?

[moderndarwin]

Let’s be real. If there was an all time NBA draft the Joker wouldn’t even likely go top 20.

[coastalmarker99]

Jokic is an awful defender who gets owned on that side of the ball in the playoffs.

So no this is not the goat peak.

And Wilt folded in the playoffs against Russell. 20-29 team record, 1-6 series record career, vs. Russell, .491 FT%.

You really want to go down this road, Mark?

Wilt utterly dominated Russell individually on both sides of the ball.

It's just that Russell's teammates always outplayed Wilt’s.


As I examined all 49 PO games.

I tracked data in four categories: TS%, Pts, Reb, Ast.

The overall data showed this:

PTS: Wilt: 43-6 (Wilt had more points than BR in 43 games vs. 6 games for Russ.)

REB: Wilt: 32-18 (1 tie)

AST: BR: 27-15 (7 ties)

TS%: Wilt: 32-17

I figured out Russ/Wilt’s teammates’ data by subtracting Russ/Wilt’s stats from team stats.

PTS: BR's teammates: 40-9 (BR teammates had more points than Wilt's in 40 of those games, vs. 9 for Wilt's mates.)

REB: BR teammates, 33-15 (1 tie)

AST: BR teammates: 28-16-5

TS%: BR teammates, 26-23

Also, finally, we know that Wilt and Russell played H2H in 8 PO series.

But who led in each category:

PTS: 8-0 Wilt

REB: 8-0 Wilt

AST: 6-2 Russell

TS%: 8-0 Wilt

Teammates:

PTS: 8-0 Russell's teammates

REB: 7-1 Russell's

AST: 5-3 Russell's

TS%: 5-3 Russell's

Therefore we see with the data that Wilt bested Russ in 26 of 32 (81%) categories over 8 PO series.

And that Russ's 11 teammates bested Wilt's 11 teammates in 25 of 32 (78%)categories over 8 PO series