Greater Accomplishment: Lebron's 4 or Duncan's 5?

[scrabbarista]

Anybody find it ironic that media/fans bring up Jordan's Finals record when comparing him to the other greats but then just dismiss Duncan's Finals record when it comes to ranking him to others. Duncan actually has a better Finals record than Lebron, Kobe, and Shaq but you rarely hear anybody cite that as reason why he should be ranked over all of them. Odd.

Yeah. I think MJ, KAJ, or LBJ are the three legit GoAT contenders, but I have Duncan fourth, and if I could with a clear conscience, I'd put him ahead of all of them.

Still think his five titles are better than LBJ's, though. It's the non-title stuff that pushes LBJ higher.

And, guy on the first page, put some respect on Duncan's teammates! "Ginobili not top fifteen" is ludicrous. Even Parker probably got there briefly.

[PedroFlu]

What a ridiculous question. The only impressive title Lebron won was with Cleveland. Imagine conspiring to build a video game cheat code team and only win 50%.
Tim won more, and was done by allowing management do their job building a team and working with whoever was put beside him.

No contest. Hakeem’s 2 is more impressive than LBJ.

Yep. LeBron is a top30 or 40 all time. Titles don't count, the rest is empty stats. Actually his whole trajectory is garbage and shouldn't count.

[PedroFlu]

What a ridiculous question. The only impressive title Lebron won was with Cleveland. Imagine conspiring to build a video game cheat code team and only win 50%.
Tim won more, and was done by allowing management do their job building a team and working with whoever was put beside him.

No contest. Hakeem’s 2 is more impressive than LBJ.

Yep. LeBron is a top30 or 40 all time. Titles don't count, the rest is empty stats. Actually his whole trajectory is garbage and shouldn't count.

Obs: I see reeks of PTSD.

[Vox Populi]

Arguments for Duncan:
1. Turned around the franchise from day one, they were wildly successful for ~20 years without any dropoff, with 5 titles interspersed in those 20 years that he was the foundation of as a cornerstone and leader of the team.

On the first point, the Spurs weren't a bad franchise when Duncan arrived. They were a perennial 50+ win team and were in contention to go to the finals a couple times. They just happened to have their best player go down for pretty much the entire season and they tanked the rest of the season.

It's not like he went to the Kings or some other team that missed the playoffs 10+ years in a row and then made them winners. The Spurs were already an excellent organization, just not a championship organization at that point. On the other hand, Lebron definitely single-handedly turned around the Cavs during both his stints there.

Agreed with DC.

2. Did it with 1 team, which demonstrates a sort of dynasty without reliance on resetting to another team when times get bad.

I think DC's argument can also be used for the second point. The Spurs were an excellent organization. If the Cavs were as excellent as them, then Lebron might have stayed and did it with 1 team too.

3. Won championships without an ATG superstar talent beside him

On the third point, David Robinson is considered a Top 20 player of All-Time.

Manu Ginobili was a Top 3 SG in the league when he was playing. Tony Parker was a Top 4 PG in the league when he was playing. Bruce Bowen was a Top 5 defensive 3&D Wing in the league when he was playing. So that is a lot of perfectly fitting talent to play along with when compared to peers of the same time like Lebron, KG and Dirk. The Spurs being such an excellent organization always had deep teams.

[dc]

Look, LeBron's not the first or only star to proactively move from team to team. Kareem did it. Barkley did it. Shaq did it. In his own era, CP3 has played for five different teams, Durant for three, Harden four four, Dwight played for three in his prime, etc.

Should also add that both Magic (this one not talked about much) and Kobe both steered/manipulated their way to the Lakers prior to the draft. Hell, even Curry did everything he could to steer his way to the Knicks, LOL.

On Shaq, he would've stayed in Orlando for at least his 1st extension had the Magic not shot themselves in the foot and lowballed him.

[Vox Populi]

Anybody find it ironic that media/fans bring up Jordan's Finals record when comparing him to the other greats but then just dismiss Duncan's Finals record when it comes to ranking him to others. Duncan actually has a better Finals record than Lebron, Kobe, and Shaq but you rarely hear anybody cite that as reason why he should be ranked over all of them. Odd.

Yeah. I think MJ, KAJ, or LBJ are the three legit GoAT contenders, but I have Duncan fourth, and if I could with a clear conscience, I'd put him ahead of all of them.

Still think his five titles are better than LBJ's, though. It's the non-title stuff that pushes LBJ higher.

And, guy on the first page, put some respect on Duncan's teammates! "Ginobili not top fifteen" is ludicrous. Even Parker probably got there briefly.

I agree with you. He needs to put some respect on Duncan's teammates.

If Ginobili and Parker were Top Fifteen players in the league, as you correctly point out, then should it not lessen the value of some of Tim Duncan's titles?

[scrabbarista]

Anybody find it ironic that media/fans bring up Jordan's Finals record when comparing him to the other greats but then just dismiss Duncan's Finals record when it comes to ranking him to others. Duncan actually has a better Finals record than Lebron, Kobe, and Shaq but you rarely hear anybody cite that as reason why he should be ranked over all of them. Odd.

Yeah. I think MJ, KAJ, or LBJ are the three legit GoAT contenders, but I have Duncan fourth, and if I could with a clear conscience, I'd put him ahead of all of them.

Still think his five titles are better than LBJ's, though. It's the non-title stuff that pushes LBJ higher.

And, guy on the first page, put some respect on Duncan's teammates! "Ginobili not top fifteen" is ludicrous. Even Parker probably got there briefly.

I agree with you. He needs to put some respect on Duncan's teammates.

If Ginobili and Parker were Top Fifteen players in the league, as you correctly point out, then should it not lessen the value of some of Tim Duncan's titles?

A. They weren't top fifteen for all five titles (or at the same time).

B. James had some top fifteen teammates, too. (AD clearly the best #2 on any of the nine titles.)

C. Duncan's accomplishment has as much to do with maintaining relationships as with basketball.

[Lost92Bricks]

LeBron, easily. Look at the road he took and the competition he faced. Duncan was carried for two of his titles (07 and 14). Heck in 2007 didn't he shoot < 40% from the field in the Finals? Meanwhile LeBron always raises his game to another level the deeper he goes.

LeBron's 4 are more impactful than Jordan's 6 IMO. Harder competition, more obstacles, etc.

Absolutely not. Lebron played in the leastern conference where every year was a cakewalk to the finals. All the talent was in the west.

[Vox Populi]

Yeah. I think MJ, KAJ, or LBJ are the three legit GoAT contenders, but I have Duncan fourth, and if I could with a clear conscience, I'd put him ahead of all of them.

Still think his five titles are better than LBJ's, though. It's the non-title stuff that pushes LBJ higher.

And, guy on the first page, put some respect on Duncan's teammates! "Ginobili not top fifteen" is ludicrous. Even Parker probably got there briefly.

I agree with you. He needs to put some respect on Duncan's teammates.

If Ginobili and Parker were Top Fifteen players in the league, as you correctly point out, then should it not lessen the value of some of Tim Duncan's titles?

A. They weren't top fifteen for all five titles (or at the same time).

B. James had some top fifteen teammates, too. (AD clearly the best #2 on any of the nine titles.)

C. Duncan's accomplishment has as much to do with maintaining relationships as with basketball.

I agree with you about Lebron. Lots of people point out that James had top fifteen teammates as a negative.

D. If the Spurs traded Duncan to the Cavs for rookie Lebron, would Lebron have left to join Miami?

E. Parker, Ginobili, Bowen, Lebron, Nesterovic // Hedo Turkoglu, Malik Rose, Nazr Mohammed

If Lebron had teams like this, could he have won every title from 2004 to 2011? What about KG and Dirk?

We will never know the answer to these questions. Yet one could argue that seeing the Spurs have such a deep team where they could recycle high level role players around the core of Duncan-Ginobili-Parker, and knowing he would have to battle them by himself, is a big reason for Lebron leaving Cleveland.

[Jkam31]

I find it wild that people think LeBron going to Cleveland and LA were sure fire great situations.

He primarily went back to Cleveland to try and fix his image and he went to the Lakers because he wanted to live in LA.

Both teams were perennially in the bottom of the standings before he joined.

Sit this out it’s obvious the media runs your mind if you believe that nonsense

[xAIRNESSx]

I find it wild that people think LeBron going to Cleveland and LA were sure fire great situations.

He primarily went back to Cleveland to try and fix his image and he went to the Lakers because he wanted to live in LA.

Both teams were perennially in the bottom of the standings before he joined.

Sit this out it’s obvious the media runs your mind if you believe that nonsense

Sorry that facts hurt your brain.

[Jkam31]

I find it wild that people think LeBron going to Cleveland and LA were sure fire great situations.

He primarily went back to Cleveland to try and fix his image and he went to the Lakers because he wanted to live in LA.

Both teams were perennially in the bottom of the standings before he joined.

Sit this out it’s obvious the media runs your mind if you believe that nonsense

Sorry that facts hurt your brain.

How is anything you said facts when it’s literally an opinion.

It’s embarrassing that you think he when there to fix something like they didn’t have Kyrie who broke out as a top 30 player and had lebron love already basically traded for

[TheGOATRises007]

I find it wild that people think LeBron going to Cleveland and LA were sure fire great situations.

He primarily went back to Cleveland to try and fix his image and he went to the Lakers because he wanted to live in LA.

Both teams were perennially in the bottom of the standings before he joined.

Sit this out it’s obvious the media runs your mind if you believe that nonsense

Sorry that facts hurt your brain.

LMAO you still think LeBron went back to Cleveland to fix his image.

Some of you are gullible.

That was an added bonus considering the assets they had to contend right away.

[syrus3]

Duncan.

2016 is completely overrated for LeGm. Silver and Kyrie helped him win that title. But his stans still hang onto the same narrative that James himself has perpetuated. That he did it alone.

AD was the best player in the playoffs in 2020.

[xAIRNESSx]

Sit this out it’s obvious the media runs your mind if you believe that nonsense

Sorry that facts hurt your brain.

LMAO you still think LeBron went back to Cleveland to fix his image.

Some of you are gullible.

That was an added bonus considering the assets they had to contend right away.

Are you guys such big LeBron haters that you honestly think LeBron looked at every team in the league and decided Cleveland was his best shot at winning another championship? This is one of the most laughable takes there is.

LeBron was so desperate to win a championship that he left his best friend and a great front office to go play for an owner who he completely despises. And it just happened to be the same team that he publicly burned and what people often cite as the main reason they dislike LeBron.

This actually makes sense to you guys? All those coincidences just perfectly lining up. I'm sure if any other small market team had the assets Cleveland had, they would've been able to draw LeBron to them. It being Cleveland had nothing to do with it. Amazing logic.

[Cavsfansince84]

Duncan.

2016 is completely overrated for LeGm. Silver and Kyrie helped him win that title. But his stans still hang onto the same narrative that James himself has perpetuated. That he did it alone.

AD was the best player in the playoffs in 2020.

LeBron becoming the first player to lead both teams in all major stats in a playoff series wasn't because Draymond missed one game or Silver interferring. You are trying to demean the 2016 title simply because its one of the greatest series on any player's resume in nba history. He didn't win it alone but that can be said about every title in nba history. You aren't adding some kind of new perspective by saying that.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Building super teams is the Laker way. Kobe forced his way to LA from high school when everyone knew Shaq was going there, Magic was only going pro if the Lakers won the coin toss so he could play with Kareem, Wilt hooked up with Jerry West, Goodrich, and Co- it’s tradition.

[MavsDirk41]

I find it wild that people think LeBron going to Cleveland and LA were sure fire great situations.

He primarily went back to Cleveland to try and fix his image and he went to the Lakers because he wanted to live in LA.

Both teams were perennially in the bottom of the standings before he joined.

Sit this out it’s obvious the media runs your mind if you believe that nonsense

Sorry that facts hurt your brain.

He played with Love and Irving in Cleveland and AD in LA. He knew he would be playing with those two in Cleveland and he and Rich Paul colluded with Davis to get him to LA. Thought we went over this already.

[WarriorGM]

Duncan.

2016 is completely overrated for LeGm. Silver and Kyrie helped him win that title. But his stans still hang onto the same narrative that James himself has perpetuated. That he did it alone.

AD was the best player in the playoffs in 2020.

LeBron becoming the first player to lead both teams in all major stats in a playoff series wasn't because Draymond missed one game or Silver interferring. You are trying to demean the 2016 title simply because its one of the greatest series on any player's resume in nba history. He didn't win it alone but that can be said about every title in nba history. You aren't adding some kind of new perspective by saying that.

A title does not represent a series. Indeed if it can be reduced to a single series that title wasn't impressive.

[Cavsfansince84]

A title does not represent a series. Indeed if it can be reduced to a single series that title wasn't impressive.

If this is in reference to the earlier series and saying that his performance and the competition wasn't that great that's fair to bring up but I think that generally speaking in such discussions the first two rounds aren't given near the emphasis that the last two rounds are nor should they be except in rare cases like the 95 Rockets run where they stand out for some reason. Him finishing the 2016 title with the finals he had against a 73 win team will always stand out as a great achievement. Again, first to win from a 3-1 deficit and first player to lead both teams in all major stats in a playoff series while playing tremendous defense. I think if any player besides LeBron had done that there would be no attempts to try and lessen it.