Is this the greatest peak of all-time?

[dhsilv2]

1962 Warriors had +2.0 rORtg with Wilt scoring 50 ppg...

Wilt was clearly a plus offensive player and he really only had 2-3 quality teammates that year imo. I'm not putting down Wilt by ANY context other than claiming him to be one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

Sure, but you said his teams were horrible offensively, so you were wrong and I felt it would be good to correct it.

I was looking at them over the course of the 7 years, not stating they were horrible each and every year. That year they were 4th among 9 teams. They were average, slightly above if you want.

60 - 7th of 8
61 - 6th of 8
62 - 4th of 9
63 - 5th of 9
64 - 7th of 9
65 - two teams 5th and 9th but I don't have a break out
66 - 6th of 9

Given our context is also about Jokic and really offense as a whole, even being 4th of 9 would be pretty horrible by ATG offensive player status, if the view is that Wilt was better offensively than Jokic over that 7 years.

[70sFan]

Wilt was clearly a plus offensive player and he really only had 2-3 quality teammates that year imo. I'm not putting down Wilt by ANY context other than claiming him to be one of the greatest offensive players of all time.

Sure, but you said his teams were horrible offensively, so you were wrong and I felt it would be good to correct it.

I was looking at them over the course of the 7 years, not stating they were horrible each and every year. That year they were 4th among 9 teams. They were average, slightly above if you want.

60 - 7th of 8
61 - 6th of 8
62 - 4th of 9
63 - 5th of 9
64 - 7th of 9
65 - two teams 5th and 9th but I don't have a break out
66 - 6th of 9

Given our context is also about Jokic and really offense as a whole, even being 4th of 9 would be pretty horrible by ATG offensive player status, if the view is that Wilt was better offensively than Jokic over that 7 years.

You look at the outdated pace estimations from basketball-reference. Ben Taylor (the creator of this old estimation model) improved that model and shared new data on his website:

1960 - 5th of 8
1961 - 5th of 8
1962 - 2nd of 9
1963 - 4th of 9
1964 - 6th of 9
1966 - 3rd of 9

I'm not here to discuss about Jokic vs Wilt offensively (there is not much discussion here), but Wilt team were actually quite good in 1962, 1963 and 1966. They were mediocre in 1960 and 1961 and bad in 1964.

[dhsilv2]

Sure, but you said his teams were horrible offensively, so you were wrong and I felt it would be good to correct it.

I was looking at them over the course of the 7 years, not stating they were horrible each and every year. That year they were 4th among 9 teams. They were average, slightly above if you want.

60 - 7th of 8
61 - 6th of 8
62 - 4th of 9
63 - 5th of 9
64 - 7th of 9
65 - two teams 5th and 9th but I don't have a break out
66 - 6th of 9

Given our context is also about Jokic and really offense as a whole, even being 4th of 9 would be pretty horrible by ATG offensive player status, if the view is that Wilt was better offensively than Jokic over that 7 years.

You look at the outdated pace estimations from basketball-reference. Ben Taylor (the creator of this old estimation model) improved that model and shared new data on his website:

1960 - 5th of 8
1961 - 5th of 8
1962 - 2nd of 9
1963 - 4th of 9
1964 - 6th of 9
1966 - 3rd of 9

I'm not here to discuss about Jokic vs Wilt offensively (there is not much discussion here), but Wilt team were actually quite good in 1962, 1963 and 1966. They were mediocre in 1960 and 1961 and bad in 1964.

Interesting, I've often been a bit questioning of Ben's math. But that would change the view of the 62 season a bit if his methods make sense. Otherwise we are left with data that doesn't indicate that wilt should be in that elite all time offensive impact range which is again all I'm trying to say with this. By the topic of greatest offensive player ever (jordan, magic...whoever else you want ot bring in) Wilt isn't in in that debate. If you don't think Jokic is, that's fine. I'm not trying to open with that either. I'm trying to point out that Wilt isn't. If someone wants to argue that Jokic isn't either, then that'll be a good and useful discussion and I'd be open to new thoughts.

[70sFan]

I was looking at them over the course of the 7 years, not stating they were horrible each and every year. That year they were 4th among 9 teams. They were average, slightly above if you want.

60 - 7th of 8
61 - 6th of 8
62 - 4th of 9
63 - 5th of 9
64 - 7th of 9
65 - two teams 5th and 9th but I don't have a break out
66 - 6th of 9

Given our context is also about Jokic and really offense as a whole, even being 4th of 9 would be pretty horrible by ATG offensive player status, if the view is that Wilt was better offensively than Jokic over that 7 years.

You look at the outdated pace estimations from basketball-reference. Ben Taylor (the creator of this old estimation model) improved that model and shared new data on his website:

1960 - 5th of 8
1961 - 5th of 8
1962 - 2nd of 9
1963 - 4th of 9
1964 - 6th of 9
1966 - 3rd of 9

I'm not here to discuss about Jokic vs Wilt offensively (there is not much discussion here), but Wilt team were actually quite good in 1962, 1963 and 1966. They were mediocre in 1960 and 1961 and bad in 1964.

Interesting, I've often been a bit questioning of Ben's math. But that would change the view of the 62 season a bit if his methods make sense. Otherwise we are left with data that doesn't indicate that wilt should be in that elite all time offensive impact range which is again all I'm trying to say with this. By the topic of greatest offensive player ever (jordan, magic...whoever else you want ot bring in) Wilt isn't in in that debate. If you don't think Jokic is, that's fine. I'm not trying to open with that either. I'm trying to point out that Wilt isn't. If someone wants to argue that Jokic isn't either, then that'll be a good and useful discussion and I'd be open to new thoughts.

As far as I know, Ben did earlier pace estimations as well, so if you want to question his math, you should question official numbers we have as well.

[hoosierdaddy34]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

[kuclas]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

Jokic is great. There is no doubt about it. But metric stats mean nothing for overall legacy. He’s lucky to even have one western conference finals under his belt. And frankly it took a ton of luck just to overcome two (3-1) deficits in series. If it were a normal 7 game series. I highly doubt they even beat the clippers with clippers having home court advantage.

Championships do take some luck. But it also requires it’s stars to shine. Jokic offensive stats are great in the playoffs. But he becomes a defensive liability in the playoffs. We can’t keep making excuses.

If you are all time great. You will your team.

If he can’t. It will be excuses after excuses.

My personal opinion is no matter how great center play is. You need more of a defensive center first. and elite wing play in the playoffs.

Look at the last 30 plus years playoff play. Outside of the shaq championship years and Hakeem. It’s been wing players who were the most important key to the title. And we all know if it weren’t for Kobe. Shaq likely doesn’t get a ring. and it took crazy Dwayne wade play to win a title for shaq as well.

[hoosierdaddy34]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

Jokic is great. There is no doubt about it. But metric stats mean nothing for overall legacy. He’s lucky to even have one western conference finals under his belt. And frankly it took a ton of luck just to overcome two (3-1) deficits in series. If it were a normal 7 game series. I highly doubt they even beat the clippers with clippers having home court advantage.

Championships do take some luck. But it also requires it’s stars to shine. Jokic offensive stats are great in the playoffs. But he becomes a defensive liability in the playoffs. We can’t keep making excuses.

If you are all time great. You will your team.

If he can’t. It will be excuses after excuses.

My personal opinion is no matter how great center play is. You need more of a defensive center first. and elite wing play in the playoffs.

Look at the last 30 plus years playoff play. Outside of the shaq championship years and Hakeem. It’s been wing players who were the most important key to the title. And we all know if it weren’t for Kobe. Shaq likely doesn’t get a ring. and it took crazy Dwayne wade play to win a title for shaq as well.

Exactly…and he’s putting up these great stats in the statistically easiest era to do so.

But yeah if you aren’t going to put up the Ws when it counts? No one becomes an all time great because of the regular season. You become one because of your success against other greats in the playoffs.

[LessEyeTest]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

Jokic is great. There is no doubt about it. But metric stats mean nothing for overall legacy. He’s lucky to even have one western conference finals under his belt. And frankly it took a ton of luck just to overcome two (3-1) deficits in series. If it were a normal 7 game series. I highly doubt they even beat the clippers with clippers having home court advantage.

Championships do take some luck. But it also requires it’s stars to shine. Jokic offensive stats are great in the playoffs. But he becomes a defensive liability in the playoffs. We can’t keep making excuses.

If you are all time great. You will your team.

If he can’t. It will be excuses after excuses.

My personal opinion is no matter how great center play is. You need more of a defensive center first. and elite wing play in the playoffs.

Look at the last 30 plus years playoff play. Outside of the shaq championship years and Hakeem. It’s been wing players who were the most important key to the title. And we all know if it weren’t for Kobe. Shaq likely doesn’t get a ring. and it took crazy Dwayne wade play to win a title for shaq as well.

Exactly…and he’s putting up these great stats in the statistically easiest era to do so.

But yeah if you aren’t going to put up the Ws when it counts? No one becomes an all time great because of the regular season. You become one because of your success against other greats in the playoffs.

Keep in mind Kobe has a ring shooting 6-24 in a game 7 of the Finals. He didn't "step up" or help his team, he almost hindered them and almost cost them the series if not for his (incredible) teammates stepping up and coming through.

I'm not exactly sure how Jokic is supposed to win when his 2nd best teammate last year was...Will Barton. The guy who is playing less on a terrible Wizards squad.

Murray has come through ONE time and that was in the wonky bubble.

Jokic always elevates his play in the playoffs (check his stats), but I fail to see how he's supposed to transform role players like Murray, Porter Jr, or Gordon into a second star (or 1B like Gasol or Wade)...

Note: He has played with exactly 0 (ZERO) all-stars alongside him in his entire career. The best teammate he's ever had might be this season's Aaron Gordon. Let that sink in.

[hoosierdaddy34]

Jokic is great. There is no doubt about it. But metric stats mean nothing for overall legacy. He’s lucky to even have one western conference finals under his belt. And frankly it took a ton of luck just to overcome two (3-1) deficits in series. If it were a normal 7 game series. I highly doubt they even beat the clippers with clippers having home court advantage.

Championships do take some luck. But it also requires it’s stars to shine. Jokic offensive stats are great in the playoffs. But he becomes a defensive liability in the playoffs. We can’t keep making excuses.

If you are all time great. You will your team.

If he can’t. It will be excuses after excuses.

My personal opinion is no matter how great center play is. You need more of a defensive center first. and elite wing play in the playoffs.

Look at the last 30 plus years playoff play. Outside of the shaq championship years and Hakeem. It’s been wing players who were the most important key to the title. And we all know if it weren’t for Kobe. Shaq likely doesn’t get a ring. and it took crazy Dwayne wade play to win a title for shaq as well.

Exactly…and he’s putting up these great stats in the statistically easiest era to do so.

But yeah if you aren’t going to put up the Ws when it counts? No one becomes an all time great because of the regular season. You become one because of your success against other greats in the playoffs.

Keep in mind Kobe has a ring shooting 6-24 in a game 7 of the Finals. He didn't "step up" or help his team, he almost hindered them and almost cost them the series if not for his (incredible) teammates stepping up and coming through.

I'm not exactly sure how Jokic is supposed to win when his 2nd best teammate last year was...Will Barton. The guy who is playing less on a terrible Wizards squad.

Murray has come through ONE time and that was in the wonky bubble.

Jokic always elevates his play in the playoffs (check his stats), but I fail to see how he's supposed to transform role players like Murray, Porter Jr, or Gordon into a second star (or 1B like Gasol or Wade)...

Note: He has played with exactly 0 (ZERO) all-stars alongside him in his entire career. The best teammate he's ever had might be this season's Aaron Gordon. Let that sink in.

He also had multiple 30 point games that series. And 29 and 27.

He’s had huge close out games his entire career. You can’t honestly take one bad game and compare it to Jokic not being able to get out of the second round. At least not with a straight face.

Either way I love how Nuggets fans love to promote how good Murray is, or how good Gordon is, UNTIL the topic of Jokic comes up. Then talk out of the other side of the mouth comes out.

Need to stop with the excuses. If he wants to be considered with the elite of the elite? Then chips have to happen and multiple. And he has to outplay all-time greats in the playoffs.

Otherwise he could be considered with Karl Malone’s and Charles Barkley’s and Patrick Ewings of the world. Which is still great and an honor but he won’t be considered in the top 10, 15, 20 guys all time without that winning resume. No matter how hard his Stans scream that he is being overlooked. So he better figure it out in the next 4 or 5 years.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

If you didn't have MJ in the all time discussion after his 88 season, you'd look like a moron now. Giannis didn't change ANYTHING when he won his title. He was already a 2x MVP and an all time great. This winning bias is just pathetic with nba fans. Winning is a team thing. It's why MJ never won a playoff series without another star. Neither did Magic. Neither did Bird. Neither did Shaq. Kareem never wins anything without an all time great point guard. Wilt needed super stars.

We're watching a GOAT tier offensive force and you're waiting for team results before you sit back and just embrace greatness? Man, life's too short to for that!

[dhsilv2]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

Jokic is great. There is no doubt about it. But metric stats mean nothing for overall legacy. He’s lucky to even have one western conference finals under his belt. And frankly it took a ton of luck just to overcome two (3-1) deficits in series. If it were a normal 7 game series. I highly doubt they even beat the clippers with clippers having home court advantage.

Championships do take some luck. But it also requires it’s stars to shine. Jokic offensive stats are great in the playoffs. But he becomes a defensive liability in the playoffs. We can’t keep making excuses.

If you are all time great. You will your team.

If he can’t. It will be excuses after excuses.

My personal opinion is no matter how great center play is. You need more of a defensive center first. and elite wing play in the playoffs.

Look at the last 30 plus years playoff play. Outside of the shaq championship years and Hakeem. It’s been wing players who were the most important key to the title. And we all know if it weren’t for Kobe. Shaq likely doesn’t get a ring. and it took crazy Dwayne wade play to win a title for shaq as well.

Duncan and Dirk say hi...

[hoosierdaddy34]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

If you didn't have MJ in the all time discussion after his 88 season, you'd look like a moron now. Giannis didn't change ANYTHING when he won his title. He was already a 2x MVP and an all time great. This winning bias is just pathetic with nba fans. Winning is a team thing. It's why MJ never won a playoff series without another star. Neither did Magic. Neither did Bird. Neither did Shaq. Kareem never wins anything without an all time great point guard. Wilt needed super stars.

We're watching a GOAT tier offensive force and you're waiting for team results before you sit back and just embrace greatness? Man, life's too short to for that!

Hmmm we are talking about all time greats or historical context. And I said “he has to start beating and outplaying other greats and win a couple chips”. Like MJ did. That doesn’t condemn him for all time but I’m not listening to nonsense currently of him being an all time great. Putting up great regular season stats in the easiest era of all time to put up great stats doesn’t cut it. Meanwhile flaming out in the post season. Absolutely watch Jokic, enjoy his offensive game. But this is talk of a “historic peak” and without titles to go with it? It falls very flat. If you want to be one of the 15 or 20 greatest players. Better figure out how to win a couple chips. Otherwise you are in the Karl Malone and Charles Barkley area which is great, very commendable. But not one of the elite 10 to 15 players ever. It’s on him to change the narrative, again like MJ did.

[DonaldSanders]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

If you didn't have MJ in the all time discussion after his 88 season, you'd look like a moron now. Giannis didn't change ANYTHING when he won his title. He was already a 2x MVP and an all time great. This winning bias is just pathetic with nba fans. Winning is a team thing. It's why MJ never won a playoff series without another star. Neither did Magic. Neither did Bird. Neither did Shaq. Kareem never wins anything without an all time great point guard. Wilt needed super stars.

We're watching a GOAT tier offensive force and you're waiting for team results before you sit back and just embrace greatness? Man, life's too short to for that!

Who was the star he played with on the 87-88 team? https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1988.html
Or the 88-89 team? https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1989.html

I don't think Scottie was considered a star yet, he was a 22 yr old rookie then in his 2nd year. He started getting a lot better year 2/3 but I have trouble calling him a star yet. I agree it takes teammates, but I think the answer lies somewhere in between "needs rings" and "just has to put up good stats."

[GYK]

leading the league in PER/WinShares/Per48/BPM/VORP has happened 26 of the 49 seasons since all 5 advanced metrics are available.
21, 22, 23(if maintained) Joker
2016 Steph
2014 Durant
09, 10, 11, 12, 13 Lebron
04 KG
00 Shaq
94, 95 DRob
88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 Jordan
85, 86 Bird
74, 76, 77, 79 Kareem

From a strictly advanced metric viewpoint these are the greatest seasons in the last 49 seasons. From a strictly advanced metric viewpoint these 26 seasons are the only times we ever had a clear cut best player(there’s been many times when someone had 4 of the 5 metrics as well).

[dhsilv2]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

If you didn't have MJ in the all time discussion after his 88 season, you'd look like a moron now. Giannis didn't change ANYTHING when he won his title. He was already a 2x MVP and an all time great. This winning bias is just pathetic with nba fans. Winning is a team thing. It's why MJ never won a playoff series without another star. Neither did Magic. Neither did Bird. Neither did Shaq. Kareem never wins anything without an all time great point guard. Wilt needed super stars.

We're watching a GOAT tier offensive force and you're waiting for team results before you sit back and just embrace greatness? Man, life's too short to for that!

Hmmm we are talking about all time greats or historical context. And I said “he has to start beating and outplaying other greats and win a couple chips”. Like MJ did. That doesn’t condemn him for all time but I’m not listening to nonsense currently of him being an all time great. Putting up great regular season stats in the easiest era of all time to put up great stats doesn’t cut it. Meanwhile flaming out in the post season. Absolutely watch Jokic, enjoy his offensive game. But this is talk of a “historic peak” and without titles to go with it? It falls very flat. If you want to be one of the 15 or 20 greatest players. Better figure out how to win a couple chips. Otherwise you are in the Karl Malone and Charles Barkley area which is great, very commendable. But not one of the elite 10 to 15 players ever. It’s on him to change the narrative, again like MJ did.

It's never easy to dominate the league statistically. If anything this is the hardest era ever to do it as the talent pools have never been deeper. When we compare players statistically, we're comparing how much better they were than their peers in each individual season. This is why nobody talks per game counting stats. 2009 Lebron or 88 MJ or 04 KG are all some of the greatest peaks in NBA history. They also came without rings.

Jokic right now is having an insane and very much historical run.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

If you didn't have MJ in the all time discussion after his 88 season, you'd look like a moron now. Giannis didn't change ANYTHING when he won his title. He was already a 2x MVP and an all time great. This winning bias is just pathetic with nba fans. Winning is a team thing. It's why MJ never won a playoff series without another star. Neither did Magic. Neither did Bird. Neither did Shaq. Kareem never wins anything without an all time great point guard. Wilt needed super stars.

We're watching a GOAT tier offensive force and you're waiting for team results before you sit back and just embrace greatness? Man, life's too short to for that!

Who was the star he played with on the 87-88 team? https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1988.html
Or the 88-89 team? https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1989.html

I don't think Scottie was considered a star yet, he was a 22 yr old rookie then in his 2nd year. He started getting a lot better year 2/3 but I have trouble calling him a star yet. I agree it takes teammates, but I think the answer lies somewhere in between "needs rings" and "just has to put up good stats."

And that's why MJ in 88 and 89 wasn't winning.

You're right that it would be hard to rank someone who simply never had another nba player on his team historically. If you're stuck in an 06 KG situation where you have multiple starters who shouldn't even be in the league, I'm not sure what we can do to even try and compare you. But we just saw Jokic get fully game planned by the warriors (the eventual champs and a top 2 defense last year) and still pull a game away from the warriors with teammates nowhere near good enough to do that. Jokic's play is directly leading to his team winning games in the regular season and playoffs. He isn't dropping off in big moments.

[Sprewell4Three]

WTF is an offensive peak? Didn’t Embiid just dominate this dude on Saturday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rapsin6]

People that expect all time great players to carry regular guys that are overpaid to glory will never be satisfied.

Jokic plays with a cast of nobodies outside of Jamal Murray, MPJ and Aaron Gordon who are just above average starters.

Jokic third best player at one time was Will Barton.

Will Barton.

You take Jokic off of the Nuggets and it is a lottery team. That's carrying.

Agreed. This whole idea that a player’s basketball skills are judged by championships is stupid. Basically, Chauncy Billups was better than Allen Iverson, Steve Nash and John Stockton. Is Luka not worthy of praise?

[WarriorGM]

leading the league in PER/WinShares/Per48/BPM/VORP has happened 26 of the 49 seasons since all 5 advanced metrics are available.

A lot of redundancy and collinearity because they basically count box scores. What makes these metrics advanced? Because that's what they are called on Basketball Reference?

I'd rather see winning.

[ropjhk]

Putting up great stats (even advanced stats) is nice but winning absolutely matters. You can argue that a player should not be penalized for not having great teammates but one could also argue that stats get inflated when a player doesn't have to share the spotlight.

The stats Jokic is putting up today will take on new meaning once Jokic starts winning championships.