Dirk and KG playoffs against Pau Gasol

[dygaction]

Dirk and KG only met in the playoffs for once and Dirk had a clearly better series by sweeping KG.
Dirk: 33.3p/15.7r/0.7a/3.0s/1.3b (.53/.73/.89 split .69TS%), 113 ORtg 95 DRtg
KG: 24.0p/18.7r/5.0a/1.7s/1.7b (.43/.50/.72 split .51TS%), 108 ORtg 111 DRtg

but they did each meet prime Pau Gasol twice. Pau as a 6x all-star, 4x all-nba, and 2x champ, can be a good ruler to gauge KG and Dirk's playoff performance. Dirk completely dominated Gasol but KG even with Allen and Piece, could do nothing against Pau, tremendous struggle offensively.

2006 Mavs swept Grizzlies 4:0
Dirk: 31.3p/7.8/3.0/0.8/0.5 (.51/.42/.87 split .63TS%), 136 ORtg 101 DRtg
Gasol: 20.3/6.8/3.0/0.5/1.3 (.43/na/.77 split .51TS%), 100 ORtg 115 DRtg

2011 Mavs swept Lakers 4:0
Dirk: 25.3/9.3/2.5/0.8/0.5 (.57/.73/.94 split .67TS%), 125 ORtg 99 DRtg
Gasol: 12.5/9.3/4.0/0.5/0.8 (.42/na/.71 split .48TS%), 110 ORtg 118 DRtg

2008 Celtics 4:2 over Lakers
Garnett: 18.2/13.0/3.0/1.7/1.0 (.43/na/.76 split .47TS%), 99 ORtg 99 DRtg
Gasol: 14.7/10.2/3.3/0.5/0.5 (.53/na/.65 split .57TS%), 111 ORtg 111 DRtg

2010 Lakers 4:3 over Celtics
Garnett: 15.3/5.6/3.0/1.4/1.3 (.51/na/.90 split .56TS%), 110 ORtg 103 DRtg
Gasol: 18.6/11.6/3.7/0.7/2.6 (.48/na/.72 split .48TS%), 122 ORtg 101 DRtg

[HeartBreakKid]

Dirk and KG only met in the playoffs for once and Dirk had a clearly better series by sweeping KG.
Dirk: 33.3p/15.7r/0.7a/3.0s/1.3b (.53/.73/.89 split .69TS%), 113 ORtg 95 DRtg
KG: 24.0p/18.7r/5.0a/1.7s/1.7b (.43/.50/.72 split .51TS%), 108 ORtg 111 DRtg

but they did each meet prime Pau Gasol twice. Pau as a 6x all-star, 4x all-nba, and 2x champ, can be a good ruler to gauge KG and Dirk's playoff performance. Dirk completely dominated Gasol but KG even with Allen and Piece, could do nothing against Pau, tremendous struggle offensively.

2006 Mavs swept Grizzlies 4:0
Dirk: 31.3p/7.8/3.0/0.8/0.5 (.51/.42/.87 split .63TS%), 136 ORtg 101 DRtg
Gasol: 20.3/6.8/3.0/0.5/1.3 (.43/na/.77 split .51TS%), 100 ORtg 115 DRtg

2011 Mavs swept Lakers 4:0
Dirk: 25.3/9.3/2.5/0.8/0.5 (.57/.73/.94 split .67TS%), 125 ORtg 99 DRtg
Gasol: 12.5/9.3/4.0/0.5/0.8 (.42/na/.71 split .48TS%), 110 ORtg 118 DRtg

2008 Celtics 4:2 over Lakers
Garnett: 18.2/13.0/3.0/1.7/1.0 (.43/na/.76 split .47TS%), 99 ORtg 99 DRtg
Gasol: 14.7/10.2/3.3/0.5/0.5 (.53/na/.65 split .57TS%), 111 ORtg 111 DRtg

2010 Lakers 4:3 over Celtics
Garnett: 15.3/5.6/3.0/1.4/1.3 (.51/na/.90 split .56TS%), 110 ORtg 103 DRtg
Gasol: 18.6/11.6/3.7/0.7/2.6 (.48/na/.72 split .48TS%), 122 ORtg 101 DRtg

You're saying that how they performed against the Grizzlies (who KG never played against) and Lakers are somehow a representation of how Garnett/Dirk played against Gasol one vs one (which for some reason you think this happened) - and thus evidence that Dirk is a better player than Garnett? You really don't see a single flaw of the many in the agenda here?


Also, you're still making post about Dirk being better than Garnett? You're almost as bad the guy who spams 90s players threads.


For one, Kevin Garnett guarded a lot by Lamar Odom in 2008. Garnett and Perkins were on the court on the same time - Gasol often got matched up with Perkins. Who do you think Perkins was guarding exactly?

Two, Garnett's 2010 stats against Gasol are better than his regular season average, so how did he "do nothing"?

Three, if your argument is that Garnett did not score a lot of points then duh..it's 2010, Garnett was not in his prime anymore.

Four, saying Dirk is a better scorer than Garnett is nothing new. Maybe I should make a thread highlighting how many more rebounds gets than Dirk throughout the years.

[dygaction]

Dirk and KG only met in the playoffs for once and Dirk had a clearly better series by sweeping KG.
Dirk: 33.3p/15.7r/0.7a/3.0s/1.3b (.53/.73/.89 split .69TS%), 113 ORtg 95 DRtg
KG: 24.0p/18.7r/5.0a/1.7s/1.7b (.43/.50/.72 split .51TS%), 108 ORtg 111 DRtg

but they did each meet prime Pau Gasol twice. Pau as a 6x all-star, 4x all-nba, and 2x champ, can be a good ruler to gauge KG and Dirk's playoff performance. Dirk completely dominated Gasol but KG even with Allen and Piece, could do nothing against Pau, tremendous struggle offensively.

2006 Mavs swept Grizzlies 4:0
Dirk: 31.3p/7.8/3.0/0.8/0.5 (.51/.42/.87 split .63TS%), 136 ORtg 101 DRtg
Gasol: 20.3/6.8/3.0/0.5/1.3 (.43/na/.77 split .51TS%), 100 ORtg 115 DRtg

2011 Mavs swept Lakers 4:0
Dirk: 25.3/9.3/2.5/0.8/0.5 (.57/.73/.94 split .67TS%), 125 ORtg 99 DRtg
Gasol: 12.5/9.3/4.0/0.5/0.8 (.42/na/.71 split .48TS%), 110 ORtg 118 DRtg

2008 Celtics 4:2 over Lakers
Garnett: 18.2/13.0/3.0/1.7/1.0 (.43/na/.76 split .47TS%), 99 ORtg 99 DRtg
Gasol: 14.7/10.2/3.3/0.5/0.5 (.53/na/.65 split .57TS%), 111 ORtg 111 DRtg

2010 Lakers 4:3 over Celtics
Garnett: 15.3/5.6/3.0/1.4/1.3 (.51/na/.90 split .56TS%), 110 ORtg 103 DRtg
Gasol: 18.6/11.6/3.7/0.7/2.6 (.48/na/.72 split .48TS%), 122 ORtg 101 DRtg

You're saying that how they performed against the Grizzlies (who KG never played against) and Lakers are somehow a representation of how Garnett/Dirk played against Gasol one vs one (which for some reason you think this happened) - and thus evidence that Dirk is a better player than Garnett? You really don't see a single flaw of the many in the agenda here?


Also, you're still making post about Dirk being better than Garnett? You're almost as bad the guy who spams 90s players threads.


For one, Kevin Garnett guarded a lot by Lamar Odom in 2008. Garnett and Perkins were on the court on the same time - Gasol often got matched up with Perkins.

Two, Garnett's 2010 stats against Gasol are better than his regular season average, so how did he "do nothing"?

Three, if your argument is that Garnett did not score a lot of points then duh..it's 2010, Garnett was not in his prime anymore.

Four, saying Dirk is a better scorer than Garnett is nothing new. Maybe I should make a thread highlighting how many more rebounds gets than Dirk throughout the years.

You are welcome to participate. Just found it interesting these several playoff series played among these three. Topics of Dirk better than KG or KG better than Garnett are always interesting and close debate. It would not change just because several polarized posters on this PC board. Clearly in this comparison, Dirk is a far superior and efficient scorer in all match ups and neither KG or Gasol was able to slow him down. KG and Gasol were at the same level with KG better defensively Gasol better offensively and effectively canceled each other.

LOL I am as bad as the other guy. Maybe I am also as bad as the other who use KG's not making playoff 06 to bravely compare with Nash's MVP 06.

[Jaivl]

Dirk has always been an absolute nightmare to Pau head to head, both in the NBA and Intl play.

KG easily outplayed him in his prime (08) and got outplayed on his post-injury slump year (10).

Dirk is a much better scorer than KG.

...Yay?

[Slava]

The Lakers team the Mavs swept were at the end of their cycle after three straight finals appearances, olympics and basically non-stop basketball with Pau having to cover for Bynum's lazy ass delaying surgery in the off season so he could go watch the football world cup in South Africa. I think the Mavs were the better team and it was an all time playoff run by Dirk but the sweep was a bit circumstantial rather than a statement of quality on either Pau or the Lakers.

[dygaction]

Dirk has always been an absolute nightmare to Pau head to head, both in the NBA and Intl play.

KG easily outplayed him in his prime (08) and got outplayed on his post-injury slump year (10).

Dirk is a much better scorer than KG.

...Yay?

I would not say KG "easily" outplay Gasol in 08? Offensively I would rather take the 14.7ppg/.57TS% than 18.4ppg/.47TS%. KG just got more help than Gasol that year.

In the finals, Pierce averaged 21.8ppg with .59TS%, Ray averaged 20.3ppg with .71TS%, and KG averaged 18.2 with .47TS%. That's -.23TS% compared to Allen - KG took 105 shots (vs. 73 for Ray) to score 109points (vs. 122 for Ray). Posey also shot the light out with .78TS%. It would have been a lot easier to win if KG gave up more shot attempts to other players and focused more on D. When was last time a player who took the most shots in a series scored #3 (#9 in TS%) on the team but that team actually won? You need elite scoring carry job from the teammates. While we cannot ignore KG's elite defense, his liability on offense should really get noticed. He also had 18 assist / 16 TOs / 16 PFs in that 6 games.

[Homer38]

It was not a good playoffs run for Gasol back in 2011...He had also been awful vs New Orleans in the first round

[Jaivl]

Dirk has always been an absolute nightmare to Pau head to head, both in the NBA and Intl play.

KG easily outplayed him in his prime (08) and got outplayed on his post-injury slump year (10).

Dirk is a much better scorer than KG.

...Yay?

I would not say KG "easily" outplay Gasol in 08? Offensively I would rather take the 14.7ppg/.57TS% than 18.4ppg/.47TS%. KG just got more help than Gasol that year.

In the finals, Pierce averaged 21.8ppg with .59TS%, Ray averaged 20.3ppg with .71TS%, and KG averaged 18.2 with .47TS%. That's -.23TS% compared to Allen - KG took 105 shots (vs. 73 for Ray) to score 109points (vs. 122 for Ray). Posey also shot the light out with .78TS%. It would have been a lot easier to win if KG gave up more shot attempts to other players and focused more on D. When was last time a player who took the most shots in a series scored #3 (#9 in TS%) on the team but that team actually won? You need elite scoring carry job from the teammates. While we cannot ignore KG's elite defense, his liability on offense should really get noticed. He also had 18 assist / 16 TOs / 16 PFs in that 6 games.

KG scored badly but his scoring was extremely heavily correlated with Boston's victories (21 ppg @52 TS% on wins, 13 ppg @41 TS% on losses), so no, I would not necessarily say he needed to be carried scoring-wise (even if acknowledging he had great help in that front).

And you're missing a huge part of the offense, which in fact was an extremely important point of contention in the 2010 Finals and the reason I say KG played weakly there despite scoring much more efficiently than in 2008 - offensive rebounding.

[70sFan]

Dirk has always been an absolute nightmare to Pau head to head, both in the NBA and Intl play.

KG easily outplayed him in his prime (08) and got outplayed on his post-injury slump year (10).

Dirk is a much better scorer than KG.

...Yay?

I would not say KG "easily" outplay Gasol in 08? Offensively I would rather take the 14.7ppg/.57TS% than 18.4ppg/.47TS%. KG just got more help than Gasol that year.

In the finals, Pierce averaged 21.8ppg with .59TS%, Ray averaged 20.3ppg with .71TS%, and KG averaged 18.2 with .47TS%. That's -.23TS% compared to Allen - KG took 105 shots (vs. 73 for Ray) to score 109points (vs. 122 for Ray). Posey also shot the light out with .78TS%. It would have been a lot easier to win if KG gave up more shot attempts to other players and focused more on D. When was last time a player who took the most shots in a series scored #3 (#9 in TS%) on the team but that team actually won? You need elite scoring carry job from the teammates. While we cannot ignore KG's elite defense, his liability on offense should really get noticed. He also had 18 assist / 16 TOs / 16 PFs in that 6 games.

KG scored badly but his scoring was extremely heavily correlated with Boston's victories (21 ppg @52 TS% on wins, 13 ppg @41 TS% on losses), so no, I would not necessarily say he needed to be carried scoring-wise (even if acknowledging he had great help in that front).

And you're missing a huge part of the offense, which in fact was an extremely important point of contention in the 2010 Finals and the reason I say KG played weakly there despite scoring much more efficiently than in 2008 - offensive rebounding.

I would also add that he missed another important part of equation - which is defense. Garnett was extremely good in 2008 finals defensively, while he had some rough moments in 2010 finals with Lakers size and his own health issues.

Garnett played very well in 2008 finals actually, but as always we stop such analysis on ppp + TS%...

[Texas Chuck]

I mean I know why this thread exists of course. But this data isn't really telling us anything relevant to a KG/Dirk debate at all. It's simply a way to try and swing opinion Dirk's way. But when done in such a manner, its likely to have the opposite effect.

If we took literally any random selection of playoff series and focused on offensive box score data, Dirk is going to look better. I don't know a single KG supporter, even those who have him as a GOAT candidate who suggests KG is a better playoff scorer than Dirk.

Look, OP, this board taken collectively views KG higher than Dirk. You do not have to agree with them. I certainly disagree that KG is tiers above Dirk the way this board sees them. But I do accept their position and we don't have to convince them they are wrong. It's okay. KG, after all, was a beast just as Dirk was.

[Mavrelous]

The Lakers team the Mavs swept were at the end of their cycle after three straight finals appearances, olympics and basically non-stop basketball with Pau having to cover for Bynum's lazy ass delaying surgery in the off season so he could go watch the football world cup in South Africa. I think the Mavs were the better team and it was an all time playoff run by Dirk but the sweep was a bit circumstantial rather than a statement of quality on either Pau or the Lakers.

I absolutely agree with this in retrospect, but going into the series, Lakers were heavy favorites.

[mpoo_sin]

Dirk is for sure a better player than Garnett. He had a higher and longer peak and he won it all as the clear number 1 of his team. Garnett sniffed the 2nd round (all the way to the conference finals) as the best player on a team once.
Every time they played against each other Dirk cooked him. He was not only better, he cooked Garnett.

[HeartBreakKid]

Dirk is for sure a better player than Garnett. He had a higher and longer peak and he won it all as the clear number 1 of his team. Garnett sniffed the 2nd round (all the way to the conference finals) as the best player on a team once.
Every time they played against each other Dirk cooked him. He was not only better, he cooked Garnett.

I do love this backward logic that Garnett was not the best player in Boston but players like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were the best players on their teams when they had more stacked rosters. In fact most all time greats had teammates as good if not better than Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, especially the 2010 and 2012 versions.

But sure uh..think that Garnett is worse than Paul Pierce lol We even saw what the Celtics looked like without Garnett and they played the closet series of all time with a .500 Bulls team in the first round.

Garnett has went to the finals literally as many times as Nowitzki. He's been to more conference finals. The fact that he got eliminated so many times in the first round through out his 20s and still ended up with a comparable number of "success" if anything would point to his favor.

Though you'll probably tell me Rondo was better than Garnett because he got a lot of assist. KG was the best player on a lot of contending teams. I don't get why his time in Boston doesnt count because his teammates were "good" but his time in Minny counts because his teammates weren't "that bad".

It's almost like if we include Garnett's entire career like we do with literally every other player he doesn't look all that unsuccessful. Can't have that!

[dygaction]

I would not say KG "easily" outplay Gasol in 08? Offensively I would rather take the 14.7ppg/.57TS% than 18.4ppg/.47TS%. KG just got more help than Gasol that year.

In the finals, Pierce averaged 21.8ppg with .59TS%, Ray averaged 20.3ppg with .71TS%, and KG averaged 18.2 with .47TS%. That's -.23TS% compared to Allen - KG took 105 shots (vs. 73 for Ray) to score 109points (vs. 122 for Ray). Posey also shot the light out with .78TS%. It would have been a lot easier to win if KG gave up more shot attempts to other players and focused more on D. When was last time a player who took the most shots in a series scored #3 (#9 in TS%) on the team but that team actually won? You need elite scoring carry job from the teammates. While we cannot ignore KG's elite defense, his liability on offense should really get noticed. He also had 18 assist / 16 TOs / 16 PFs in that 6 games.

KG scored badly but his scoring was extremely heavily correlated with Boston's victories (21 ppg @52 TS% on wins, 13 ppg @41 TS% on losses), so no, I would not necessarily say he needed to be carried scoring-wise (even if acknowledging he had great help in that front).

And you're missing a huge part of the offense, which in fact was an extremely important point of contention in the 2010 Finals and the reason I say KG played weakly there despite scoring much more efficiently than in 2008 - offensive rebounding.

I would also add that he missed another important part of equation - which is defense. Garnett was extremely good in 2008 finals defensively, while he had some rough moments in 2010 finals with Lakers size and his own health issues.

Garnett played very well in 2008 finals actually, but as always we stop such analysis on ppp + TS%...

Why do you guys think it is ok to score less on bad efficiency (13ppg @ 41TS% on losses)? If it were not for three HOFs in their prime playing together, that performance can easily single handedly let you lost the finals. Also, 21ppg on 52TS% is still -5TS% worse than Gasol's average.

I literally said he played elite defense, but how much value can you have on defense if your counterpart is scoring at +10TS% than you? If two teammates are scoring more points at MUCH greater efficiency, at least let's acknowledge Pierce deserved his Finals MVP. Dirk also scored 33ppg with +18TS% efficiency over KG in a series. If he is an elite defender shouldn't TWolves let other players beat them instead of Dirk?

[dygaction]

Dirk is for sure a better player than Garnett. He had a higher and longer peak and he won it all as the clear number 1 of his team. Garnett sniffed the 2nd round (all the way to the conference finals) as the best player on a team once.
Every time they played against each other Dirk cooked him. He was not only better, he cooked Garnett.

I do love this backward logic that Garnett was not the best player in Boston but players like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were the best players on their teams when they had more stacked rosters. In fact most all time greats had teammates as good if not better than Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, especially the 2010 and 2012 versions.

But sure uh..think that Garnett is worse than Paul Pierce lol We even saw what the Celtics looked like without Garnett and they played the closet series of all time with a .500 Bulls team in the first round.

Garnett has went to the finals literally as many times as Nowitzki. He's been to more conference finals. The fact that he got eliminated so many times in the first round through out his 20s and still ended up with a comparable number of "success" if anything would point to his favor.

Though you'll probably tell me Rondo was better than Garnett because he got a lot of assist. KG was the best player on a lot of contending teams. I don't get why his time in Boston doesnt count because his teammates were "good" but his time in Minny counts because his teammates weren't "that bad".

It's almost like if we include Garnett's entire career like we do with literally every other player he doesn't look all that unsuccessful. Can't have that!

I do like the goal post changing when we are talking abt KG and Dirk and you shift it to Bird and Magic. They did have teammates as good as Pierce or Ray but they won it all. It was because KG not half as good as Bird or Magic so they lost 2010 and 2012.
Mavs fans can praise Kidd, Jet, Tyson all the way and nobody would question Dirk was the best player while many KG fans have to downplay Pierce ( lol as you used) and Ray to drag him up in ATG comparison.

KG and Dirk each got to finals twice and won one. The difference is Dirk was without doubt the best player in both time and the Mavs won because of historical performance. The Celtics won because albeit KG's tremendous struggle on offense, he played elite defense. KG was not their best player and outplayed by Gasol in 2010 due to passing his prime as you pointed out.

[70sFan]

Why do you guys think it is ok to score less on bad efficiency (13ppg @ 41TS% on losses)? If it were not for three HOFs in their prime playing together, that performance can easily single handedly let you lost the finals.

Why do you think that this logic applies only to scoring? Dirk wouldn't have done anything without 3 all-defensive team level players in the starting lineup either, but nobody says that Dirk's defense could single handedly let you lose the finals.

Some players need scoring help, others needs defensive help, others need something else. Let's not act like Dirk is an all-around monster who won it all without any help.

[Mavrelous]

Why do you guys think it is ok to score less on bad efficiency (13ppg @ 41TS% on losses)? If it were not for three HOFs in their prime playing together, that performance can easily single handedly let you lost the finals.

Why do you think that this logic applies only to scoring? Dirk wouldn't have done anything without 3 all-defensive team level players in the starting lineup either, but nobody says that Dirk's defense could single handedly let you lose the finals.

Some players need scoring help, others needs defensive help, others need something else. Let's not act like Dirk is an all-around monster who won it all without any help.

No one wins w/o help, there are always 5 players on the floor, since 2000, Dirk won with the least help except maybe 03 Duncan, but Dirk had to go through a much tougher path, also, Marion was never all NBA defensive team, Kidd's last all defense was in 2007 and was 37 when Dirk won.
In general, it is easier to find the defensive big than the killer scorer, offense>defense.

[Owly]

how much value can you have on defense if your counterpart is scoring at +10TS% than you?

Immense value. You can have immense value. Primarily because basketball isn't a an aggregation of 5 1-on-1 games.

Just on your man you could be limiting their volume or forcing many turnovers. Making them eat clock by preventing them making a move, or even getting the ball.

You can protect the rim which is huge. You can switch effectively, or hedge or whatever. You can communicate defensively.

I think the top tier guys defensively a Russell, Eaton, a Bol made huge impact primarily not by guarding their own man (I think frequently sacrificing "matchup" battles) often do so primarily by an impact across multiple players, rather than a single individual at a time. If you took a decent chunk out of each player the importance of the 1 man will diminish. Of course shot volumes will matter too. If I only take one shot a game and miss, and you're the star and you outshoot me by 40 TS% ... if I was low usage, a Chris Dudley type to begin with then I may well have had huge defensive value and, versus typical expected performance, vastly tipped the scales in my team's favor.

This is a conceptual point. I don't know what kind of job KG did otoh in a series over a decade ago. If I wanted to I'd want to see detailed numbers and get the opinions of those with better eye-tests than I. But one could have vast impact. There's nowhere near enough information offered in the quote to preclude that.

[70sFan]

Why do you guys think it is ok to score less on bad efficiency (13ppg @ 41TS% on losses)? If it were not for three HOFs in their prime playing together, that performance can easily single handedly let you lost the finals.

Why do you think that this logic applies only to scoring? Dirk wouldn't have done anything without 3 all-defensive team level players in the starting lineup either, but nobody says that Dirk's defense could single handedly let you lose the finals.

Some players need scoring help, others needs defensive help, others need something else. Let's not act like Dirk is an all-around monster who won it all without any help.

No one wins w/o help, there are always 5 players on the floor, since 2000, Dirk won with the least help except maybe 03 Duncan, but Dirk had to go through a much tougher path, also, Marion was never all NBA defensive team, Kidd's last all defense was in 2007 and was 37 when Dirk won.
In general, it is easier to find the defensive big than the killer scorer, offense>defense.

Just because Marion never made all-defensive team doesn't mean he wasn't on that level. Kidd was still elite defender even at the age of 37 and Chandler was top tier defensive big in the league.

The last paragraph is your assumption, not a fact.

[Mavrelous]

Just because Marion never made all-defensive team doesn't mean he wasn't on that level. Kidd was still elite defender even at the age of 37 and Chandler was top tier defensive big in the league.

The last paragraph is your assumption, not a fact.

It's absolutely a fact, reflected in players salaries and return on trades, as for Kidd being all defensive guy at 37, I really have no comment..