Trade Deadline Rumours & Discussion Thread II

[Zeno]

Not a good analogy. NBA stats are essentially a zero sum. In your typical company, you can grow the pie.

Winning grows the pie and its perceived quality.

Salary cap and correlation of stats to contract $ would say otherwise.

Fred's stats are horrible this year but it is perceived value towards winning that carries his value and makes him in demand still. Also winning teams go into the tax, losing teams do not generally and definitely not by design.

[WaltFrazier]

Raps roster is the anti "The whole is greater than the sum of the parts".

As an aside, the first time I ever saw that phrase was about the 1970 Knicks, my first favorite team. Undersized for their era, not having superstars like West-Chamberlain-Baylor in LA. A team built on defense and ball movement and great shooting. Since then I've appreciated teams that won that way, the 77 Trailblazers, 79 Sonics, the Bad Boys Pistons. Isiah Thomas coined a phrase, The Secret, which Bill Simmons wrote at length about in his Book of Basketball. The concept of individual players sacrificing their own stats especially scoring for the good of the team and the sake of winning. Isiah did it then, Kyle did it in 2019 by becoming more of a passer. The 2020 Raps were a great example of that kind of team, and during our 2nd half push last season we saw some of it again. But this year's team has lost that quality. A lot of that is lack of talent and size and athleticism, and a lot is lacking the kind of playmaker who makes other players better. Maybe Scottie can be that but we also need a guard who can bring that to the team.

Do you recall Isiah Thomas "forcing" Adrian Dantley off the team in favour of Mark Aguirre in a trade? Worked out well for Pistons but the logic behind it was interesting. Dantley is still butt hurt about it.

I know, I was there, I lived it, I remember everything. They lost to the Lakers with Dantley then won twice with Aguirre. Having Aguirre take a step back allowed Rodman to come to the fore. I'm still not sure what was right because I liked Dantley too. But Isiah definitely sacrificed his own scoring those years, to allow Dumars a bigger role and to make the team better overall. It reminded me so much of what Kyle did in 2019. The opposite of Fred now.

There's a great book called The Franchise, by Cameron Stauth that details the rise of the Bad Boys to their first championship. The epilogue is the gut-wrenching scene where they come off stage from their victory parade, and Rick Mahorn got the news he was the one left unprotected in the expansion draft. He came off the stage all pumped, man that was so great, I gotta get a DVD of that. Then Jack McCloskey calls him into his office with the bad news.

[ItsDanger]

My nephew is in these fantasy basketball leagues. I had a hard time explaining to him why a player who suddenly got 30 minutes was producing at a much higher rate than when he got 20 minutes. He couldn't understand the zero sum concept.

[Boardbreaker]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=x4GdMN8FrzzhmfphIyxwAA

Isn’t Haynes one of klutch’s mouthpieces

[Tor_Raps]

No idea why this didn't get more attention but as a fan, I wasn't pleased with this coaching mantra by Nurse:

https://clutchpoints.com/raptors-news-nick-nurse-reveals-significance-of-getting-players-paid-and-youth-development

"In an appearance on former NBA player J.J. Redick’s podcast, Nurse revealed one of his secrets to coaching. The Raptors head coach revealed why it’s important to coach players toward getting paid."

This wouldn't fly for 1 second in the NHL. I guarantee that.

Would help explain the selfish nature of this team. That would be horrible thinking from a team perspective.

What a dumb thing to say. When I worked for MLSE, the mantra was how do we increase the value of our employees in the market place. It's not selfish when you are trying to motivate people to do better at their jobs. It's not selfish to get guys working harder to get paid. It's not selfish when you are trying to get people to get promoted. that's called life.

Anyway here is the full clip.

Watch on YouTube

Please don't compare your/our damn desk jobs to playing a team sport. That's just a hilarious comparison lol.

Yes, part of getting the most out of your team would be greater individual improvement. But that could also work against you if you have people putting their individual motives ahead of the team.

Like I said in a post earlier, clearly Nurse has failed to find that balance considering the Raptors rank near the bottom in Total Passes, Assists and FG%. The obvious negative feedback this team gets a lot is that we have a lot of selfish players who seem to be looking out for themselves. The stats match the eye test.

This is considering that we don't even have good iso players as this is one our of weakest parts. That's a reason why we are not a good crunch time team because we don't have THAT guy to take big shots.

[Son Goku 25]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=x4GdMN8FrzzhmfphIyxwAA

Makes sense, not surprising they play like they don't like each other and are sick of it.

It goes back to what we fans observed watching them and then Nurse playing them 40 mins a game not helping the case. New reports from shams saying there may be some friction with Nurse and FO seems real. I think Masai gotta get rid of the garbage and fix this before it gets worse. Remove this me first attitude when you aren't even that good.

Something must've changed because the last three games, the chemistry appears to be way better. Let's hope this can continue.

Perhaps or some guys think they might be moved and that excites them where they are able to put up with it for a few games. I doubt the management will make false promises to guys like their role will change especially if the player wants more opportunities or a bigger role. We already know a few of them are looking to be paid as well.

[WaltFrazier]

Would help explain the selfish nature of this team. That would be horrible thinking from a team perspective.

What a dumb thing to say. When I worked for MLSE, the mantra was how do we increase the value of our employees in the market place. It's not selfish when you are trying to motivate people to do better at their jobs. It's not selfish to get guys working harder to get paid. It's not selfish when you are trying to get people to get promoted. that's called life.

Anyway here is the full clip.

[/quote]

The nature of a basketball team is different than an office workplace though. In basketball not everyone can get as many shots and points as they want. There's an element of sacrificing your stats for the team success. The answer in sports is for management to make known to players they'll be rewarded for other things too, defense, sharing the ball, doing the hustle plays and dirty work. Not just points.

[vulture]

Would help explain the selfish nature of this team. That would be horrible thinking from a team perspective.

What a dumb thing to say. When I worked for MLSE, the mantra was how do we increase the value of our employees in the market place. It's not selfish when you are trying to motivate people to do better at their jobs. It's not selfish to get guys working harder to get paid. It's not selfish when you are trying to get people to get promoted. that's called life.

Anyway here is the full clip.

Watch on YouTube

Please don't compare your/our damn desk jobs to playing a team sport. That's just a hilarious comparison lol.

Yes, part of getting the most out of your team would be greater individual improvement. But that could also work against you if you have people putting their individual motives ahead of the team.

Like I said in a post earlier, clearly Nurse has failed to find that balance considering the Raptors rank near the bottom in Total Passes, Assists and FG%. The obvious negative feedback this team gets a lot is that we have a lot of selfish players who seem to be looking out for themselves. The stats match the eye test.

This is considering that we don't even have good iso players as this is one our of weakest parts. That's a reason why we are not a good crunch time team because we don't have THAT guy to take big shots.

Did you watch the video or are you going just to continue to spew negative nonsense?

Why do the raptors play Iso ball? Teams switch against them so what you perceive as iso ball is that the defense dictates what you can run. Other than Fred, PAscal and scottie who are the good passers on the team? Precious, Boucher, Gary, OG have no playmaking ability. Thad doesn't play so he really doesn't count.

If you can name a play the raptors run what they call it then maybe your basketball analysis will matter. until then you can just pretend you know anything about the game while being angry all the time.

[vulture]

Would help explain the selfish nature of this team. That would be horrible thinking from a team perspective.

What a dumb thing to say. When I worked for MLSE, the mantra was how do we increase the value of our employees in the market place. It's not selfish when you are trying to motivate people to do better at their jobs. It's not selfish to get guys working harder to get paid. It's not selfish when you are trying to get people to get promoted. that's called life.

Anyway here is the full clip.

The nature of a basketball team is different than an office workplace though. In basketball not everyone can get as many shots and points as they want. There's an element of sacrificing your stats for the team success. The answer in sports is for management to make known to players they'll be rewarded for other things too, defense, sharing the ball, doing the hustle plays and dirty work. Not just points.[/quote]

What the video walt. I know that is hard, but just watch it.

[tecumseh18]

Bench players are by definition not as good as the starters. So here's my question. If Masai actually furnished Nick with a "decent bench", would Nurse play them, or still ride his starters 40 minutes per game? Would Nick actually play Seth Curry, or Bones Nyland or Jose Alvarado or ... ? I don't see it. We'd have to have a bench of OG, Pascal and Fred-level players for them to get significant minutes.

Except for Patrick McCaw. If healthy, that guy would see 30-35 mpg.

[ItsDanger]

NN: "How are we getting you to a better place, a better contract . . . ". WTF. He calls this 1a right below winning. This is the bet on yourself culture in a nutshell. Blow it up.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Bench players are by definition not as good as the starters. So here's my question. If Masai actually furnished Nick with a "decent bench", would Nurse play them, or still ride his starters 40 minutes per game? Would Nick actually play Seth Curry, or Bones Nyland or Jose Alvarado or ... ? I don't see it. We'd have to have a bench of OG, Pascal and Fred-level players for them to get significant minutes.

Except for Patrick McCaw. If healthy, that guy would see 30-35 mpg.

The bench is clearly an issue, I think that's how they get away with stuff like this.

Regardless, if you gave Barnes Trent's touches (2.9 more shots per game)....we'd get more wins. Long term this doesn't work.

[Fairview4Life]

"How will you get paid more money" means something different when the recipient is Chris Boucher (max effort, offensive rebound, hit your 3's) compared to OG (lockdown D on every position, hit your 3's) to Pascal (all star on both sides of the ball) to Precious (3's, rim running, defense, develop better hands than Biyombo) etc etc etc.

That isn't bet on yourself culture and it isn't at odds with winning basketball games. He isn't out there telling every single player to ISO on every possession so they get paid like Kobe. It's basically just here's how you can be the best version of yourself and here's where we think you can add to your game. But couching it in a way that keeps players interested in listening.

[Los_29]

Bench players are by definition not as good as the starters. So here's my question. If Masai actually furnished Nick with a "decent bench", would Nurse play them, or still ride his starters 40 minutes per game? Would Nick actually play Seth Curry, or Bones Nyland or Jose Alvarado or ... ? I don't see it. We'd have to have a bench of OG, Pascal and Fred-level players for them to get significant minutes.

Except for Patrick McCaw. If healthy, that guy would see 30-35 mpg.

Of course he would. Look at the 2018-19 season. No one averaged more than 34mpg. Tons of players got rested throughout the year and Nurse used tons of guys off the bench. 2019-20 season was pretty good as well despite losing Kawhi and Green.

[Tor_Raps]

What a dumb thing to say. When I worked for MLSE, the mantra was how do we increase the value of our employees in the market place. It's not selfish when you are trying to motivate people to do better at their jobs. It's not selfish to get guys working harder to get paid. It's not selfish when you are trying to get people to get promoted. that's called life.

Anyway here is the full clip.

Watch on YouTube

Please don't compare your/our damn desk jobs to playing a team sport. That's just a hilarious comparison lol.

Yes, part of getting the most out of your team would be greater individual improvement. But that could also work against you if you have people putting their individual motives ahead of the team.

Like I said in a post earlier, clearly Nurse has failed to find that balance considering the Raptors rank near the bottom in Total Passes, Assists and FG%. The obvious negative feedback this team gets a lot is that we have a lot of selfish players who seem to be looking out for themselves. The stats match the eye test.

This is considering that we don't even have good iso players as this is one our of weakest parts. That's a reason why we are not a good crunch time team because we don't have THAT guy to take big shots.

Did you watch the video or are you going just to continue to spew negative nonsense?

Why do the raptors play Iso ball? Teams switch against them so what you perceive as iso ball is that the defense dictates what you can run. Other than Fred, PAscal and scottie who are the good passers on the team? Precious, Boucher, Gary, OG have no playmaking ability. Thad doesn't play so he really doesn't count.

If you can name a play the raptors run what they call it then maybe your basketball analysis will matter. until then you can just pretend you know anything about the game while being angry all the time.

I am just responding to the premise of having guys look out for their own over others and how Nurse has clearly failed to find the balance on this team.

If you are calling Fred a good passer then you clearly don't understand the sport you are watching. His assist numbers mostly come from him just pounding the ball so much. I'd say one of his floor general games was just this past one against Portland where his numbers weren't even that good but he finally showed true PG skills. If he played like that more often as a "leader" should then maybe the rest would try to fall in line more too.

Also, teams switch against everyone these days so this isn't specific to the Raptors. Not sure why youre using that as a reason why we'd be near last in passing, assists, fg%. Passing is more of a mindset and if our coach or "floor general" isn't stressing this then it's less likely to happen. There are many ways to punish guys who don't play basketball the right way if it truly matters to you.

And please don't assume my basketball knowledge level. I've played the sport my whole life at various highly competitive levels (obviously not professional) so I understand the sport just fine

[vulture]

Please don't compare your/our damn desk jobs to playing a team sport. That's just a hilarious comparison lol.

Yes, part of getting the most out of your team would be greater individual improvement. But that could also work against you if you have people putting their individual motives ahead of the team.

Like I said in a post earlier, clearly Nurse has failed to find that balance considering the Raptors rank near the bottom in Total Passes, Assists and FG%. The obvious negative feedback this team gets a lot is that we have a lot of selfish players who seem to be looking out for themselves. The stats match the eye test.

This is considering that we don't even have good iso players as this is one our of weakest parts. That's a reason why we are not a good crunch time team because we don't have THAT guy to take big shots.

Did you watch the video or are you going just to continue to spew negative nonsense?

Why do the raptors play Iso ball? Teams switch against them so what you perceive as iso ball is that the defense dictates what you can run. Other than Fred, PAscal and scottie who are the good passers on the team? Precious, Boucher, Gary, OG have no playmaking ability. Thad doesn't play so he really doesn't count.

If you can name a play the raptors run what they call it then maybe your basketball analysis will matter. until then you can just pretend you know anything about the game while being angry all the time.

I am just responding to the premise of having guys look out for their own over others and how Nurse has clearly failed to find the balance on this team.

If you are calling Fred a good passer then you clearly don't understand the sport you are watching. His assist numbers mostly come from him just pounding the ball so much. I'd say one of his floor general games was just this past one against Portland where his numbers weren't even that good but he finally showed true PG skills. If he played like that more often as a "leader" should then maybe the rest would try to fall in line more too.

Also, teams switch against everyone these days so this isn't specific to the Raptors. Not sure why youre using that as a reason why we'd be near last in passing, assists, fg%. Passing is more of a mindset and if our coach or "floor general" isn't stressing this then it's less likely to happen. There are many ways to punish guys who don't play basketball the right way if it truly matters to you.

And please don't assume my basketball knowledge level. I've played the sport my whole life at various levels (obviously not professional) so I understand the sport just fine

ok so name a play they ran other than a pick and roll and what they call it?

[ItsDanger]

Jose Calderon career APG as a Raptor was 7.2 Fred hasn't done that in any season yet, let alone average it. Does this make Calderon a great passer? No. Players who handle the ball a lot will get assists by default. Great passers create EASY shots, not open looks. Some will never understand the nuance of shooting 45% vs 40%.

[Tor_Raps]

Did you watch the video or are you going just to continue to spew negative nonsense?

Why do the raptors play Iso ball? Teams switch against them so what you perceive as iso ball is that the defense dictates what you can run. Other than Fred, PAscal and scottie who are the good passers on the team? Precious, Boucher, Gary, OG have no playmaking ability. Thad doesn't play so he really doesn't count.

If you can name a play the raptors run what they call it then maybe your basketball analysis will matter. until then you can just pretend you know anything about the game while being angry all the time.

I am just responding to the premise of having guys look out for their own over others and how Nurse has clearly failed to find the balance on this team.

If you are calling Fred a good passer then you clearly don't understand the sport you are watching. His assist numbers mostly come from him just pounding the ball so much. I'd say one of his floor general games was just this past one against Portland where his numbers weren't even that good but he finally showed true PG skills. If he played like that more often as a "leader" should then maybe the rest would try to fall in line more too.

Also, teams switch against everyone these days so this isn't specific to the Raptors. Not sure why youre using that as a reason why we'd be near last in passing, assists, fg%. Passing is more of a mindset and if our coach or "floor general" isn't stressing this then it's less likely to happen. There are many ways to punish guys who don't play basketball the right way if it truly matters to you.

And please don't assume my basketball knowledge level. I've played the sport my whole life at various levels (obviously not professional) so I understand the sport just fine

ok so name a play they ran other than a pick and roll and what they call it?

You think knowing the name of the plays they run determines your basketball knowledge and how to play it? People can learn that crap from playing 2K or Googling it lol.

[WaltFrazier]

Would help explain the selfish nature of this team. That would be horrible thinking from a team perspective.

What a dumb thing to say. When I worked for MLSE, the mantra was how do we increase the value of our employees in the market place. It's not selfish when you are trying to motivate people to do better at their jobs. It's not selfish to get guys working harder to get paid. It's not selfish when you are trying to get people to get promoted. that's called life.

Anyway here is the full clip.

The nature of a basketball team is different than an office workplace though. In basketball not everyone can get as many shots and points as they want. There's an element of sacrificing your stats for the team success. The answer in sports is for management to make known to players they'll be rewarded for other things too, defense, sharing the ball, doing the hustle plays and dirty work. Not just points.

What the video walt. I know that is hard, but just watch it.[/quote]

I watched it. I still see a possible conflict between individual contract success and team success.

[vulture]

I am just responding to the premise of having guys look out for their own over others and how Nurse has clearly failed to find the balance on this team.

If you are calling Fred a good passer then you clearly don't understand the sport you are watching. His assist numbers mostly come from him just pounding the ball so much. I'd say one of his floor general games was just this past one against Portland where his numbers weren't even that good but he finally showed true PG skills. If he played like that more often as a "leader" should then maybe the rest would try to fall in line more too.

Also, teams switch against everyone these days so this isn't specific to the Raptors. Not sure why youre using that as a reason why we'd be near last in passing, assists, fg%. Passing is more of a mindset and if our coach or "floor general" isn't stressing this then it's less likely to happen. There are many ways to punish guys who don't play basketball the right way if it truly matters to you.

And please don't assume my basketball knowledge level. I've played the sport my whole life at various levels (obviously not professional) so I understand the sport just fine

ok so name a play they ran other than a pick and roll and what they call it?

You think knowing the name of the plays they run determines your basketball knowledge and how to play it? People can learn that crap from playing 2K or Googling it lol.

Thanks for answering my question and have a great negative day my friend.