2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions

[WeekapaugGroove]

True, which goes for most all players when all their ball handlers are out. Most all Cs outside of about 2 or 3 do you want as one of your primary ball handlers.

And that's why you don't draft a C 1.1 unless he can be one of those guys


Ghost - I wasn't specifically talking about you, I was just having a little fun with some of the things I see about Ayton around here.

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I understand man!
With Ayton I just want us to best utilize what he's good at while he's here to take pressure off of Paul and Book, and get our shooting back. And you're right about drafting bigs predominantly in the draft that high. But with Ayton I think they just had a very specific idea around what they planned to do. And didn't choose Doncic because they didn't envision how having two ball dominant players could ultimately be successful? I still think Ayton can play a significant role with this team under new ownership and might even experience renewed passion and investment absent of Saver, and the dark oppressive, foreboding chaos attached to him. So I'm trying to stay positive and excited towards this new era and potential growth.

I appreciate your optimism! When I saw the report of Crowder for 2nd round picks I thought of you and how much fun you would have giving scout breakdowns


Not that I want to open this can of worms but if McD really didn't think Luka and Booker could co-exist then first off he's a fool because multiple ball handlers is way in today game. But secondly Booker wasn't good enough at that point to make you not take someone so it's even by that logic he should have just picked Luka and moved Booker later if needed. We tend to forget just how big of a leap Booker has had the past few years.

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[lilfishi22]

He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.

See the logic is Booker and CP are good but they hold Ayton back, but if he plays with bad guards that really holds him back. So what he needs is DIFFERENT good guards... then it Dominayton season.


I don't agree but as far as I can tell that's the logic used.

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LOL I challenge you or anyone else to show a post I've made stating "Paul and Book are holding Ayton back! Because clearly I've never once said that. I've ever only said it would be beneficial to incorporate or feature him more in the offense IF they truly want to see greater in game development (similar to what Bridges has enjoyed) being featured more as the 3rd option in games. But everyone feel free to spin things whatever way you think benefits your narratives or arguments. Regardless of oppositional opinions here, the plain truth is that Ayton still normally scores with elite efficiency. And this is absolutely logical in premise of making him more of a factor to help collapse opposing defenses more frequently and not only getting higher percentage shot opportunities for our perimeter players to get in a good offensive flow. But also makes Ayton more of a notable threat and thusly taking pressure off of Book and Paul in the offensive scheme. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for so many to consider??

Ayton being featured as more of an offensive focal point given his elite offensive efficiency forces the defense to collapse on him. This in turn very obviously opens up the perimeter for Paul, Booker, Bridges, Johnson, even Shamet to get more wide open higher percentage looks. In being able to do this more easily, it also affords BOTH Paul and Book less wear and tear/ early exhaustion from having to ISO create and break down defenses. Also allowing them to conserve key energy early on to use in the 4th to more effectively close out games. Can everyone not truly see/ understand the principle benefits here? These considerations are my logic to make our offense easier and to try and conserve Paul and Book more and minimize the pressure and wear and tear on them down the stretch. But please, continue to deride my logic further.

DA's historically elite efficiency has always been a product of playing with Book/CP3. He wasn't efficient (for a big) when he started to have a bigger role on offense in his sophomore season but that efficiency sky rocketed to actually elite levels when CP3 came on board. With Book's injury, it was the perfect opportunity for DA to step up and take on a bigger role on offense which he did by averaging 16 FGA but he also got his 17ppg on poor efficiency. DA averaged a 47.4% FG%, which we all agree is pretty damn inefficient for a big man.

DA didn't have this elite offensive efficiency until CP3 got Phoenix (and pretty much every player benefited from CP3's presence too, that's undeniable) and he was ultra efficient in the playoffs because CP3/Book set things up for him. So if the rationale for featuring DA more as an offensive focal point is because of his elite offensive efficiency then I think that logic is broken because his elite efficiency comes specifically from not being featured as the offensive focal point.

[BobbieL]

Kevin Pelton: At the risk of stating the obvious, the Phoenix Suns have to find a deal for Jae Crowder, who hasn't played all season while away from the team. Phoenix appears to have weathered the worst of the injuries that cratered depth in early January, but with Chris Paul's age and Cameron Payne still sidelined, more guard depth would be helpful. And the Suns should at least explore a bigger deal to add a difference-maker with no clear favorite in the West.

www.espn.com

Sure sounds like my Russell trade - meaning taking the picks from the Bucks and moving to Minnesota

Possibly Charlotte for Rozier - again three team with the bucks

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://youtu.be/Gxfb7vkoMGE
Keith Smith and Trevor Lane discuss Jae Crowder at 27:00 minutes in.

[TeamTragic]

https://youtu.be/Gxfb7vkoMGE
Keith Smith and Trevor Lane discuss Jae Crowder at 27:00 minutes in.

Anything new?

[Ghost of Kleine]

DeAndre Ayton is the reason we kept that ncaa thread alive lol
Not sure why GOK is mad tbh

Lol now that is funny! I do love the ncaa thread for sure. So your right about that man. It's more important to me though because despite Paul coming here, and all the promises and inferences made about star players coming here because of Paul, and our amazing culture change lol, It's now been three years in, Paul is ad good as gone sometime next season and what big names, stars or impact players have we even signed in those past 3 yrs?

Exactly none! What young athletic high end talent have we signed? None! What key impact veterans have we signed in the past 3 years? None! What draft prospects have we brought in to have young cost controlled talent? None. But I recognize that under Saver, were just not going to actually attract any legitimate talent or spend on any legitimate impact players to improve the significantly. That's why I advocate for the draft, because with someone like Saver, you have to explore the cheapest possible option for him to even consider it.

I'm just trying to explore avenues he might have actually accepted financially to sustain talent here. Ad for Ayton contributing to the lottery premise, I'd say it's clearly more the result of Paul's decline and our incredible number of injuries screwing everything up. And obviously not a player still putting up double/ double production whilst the rest of the team repeatedly offers stat lines of 0- 6 points average per contest.

Well it's not what that table 3 says so I beg to differ.

I'm sorry man! But I think you may be looking at the wrong thing here: (I hope this helps)
Suns/ Mavs Game
https://www.google.com/search?q=nba+scoreboard+suns&source=hp&ei=hF7YY8-nAqrGkPIPso6U2Ac&iflsig=AK50M_UAAAAAY9hslMzfNerqR2IEJVdqj1sJ1NgPqias&ved=0ahUKEwjP-cjBxPD8AhUqI0QIHTIHBXsQ4dUDCAs&uact=5&oq=nba+scoreboard+suns&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgkIABAWEB4Q8QQyBggAEBYQHjoLCC4QgAQQsQMQgwE6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoICAAQgAQQsQM6FAguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDENQCOggIABCxAxCDAToOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QM6BQguEIAEOhAIABCABBCxAxCDARBGEP0BOgUIABCABDoLCAAQgAQQsQMQiwM6DggAEIAEELEDEIMBEIsDUABYqz1gpkZoAHAAeACAAagBiAHjDJIBBDE3LjKYAQCgAQG4AQI&sclient=gws-wiz&zx=1675124394711#sie=m;/g/11t9rr9n4b;3;/m/05jvx;tb2;fp;1;;;

- Torrey Craig. 5 points.
- Damian Lee. 0 points.
- Ish WainWright. 3 points.
- Bismack Biyombo. 4 points.
- Josh Okogie 2 points.
- Jock Landle 2 points.
- Saban Lee 0 points.

Suns/ Spurs
https://www.google.com/search?q=nba+scoreboard+suns&source=hp&ei=hF7YY8-nAqrGkPIPso6U2Ac&iflsig=AK50M_UAAAAAY9hslMzfNerqR2IEJVdqj1sJ1NgPqias&ved=0ahUKEwjP-cjBxPD8AhUqI0QIHTIHBXsQ4dUDCAs&uact=5&oq=nba+scoreboard+suns&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgkIABAWEB4Q8QQyBggAEBYQHjoLCC4QgAQQsQMQgwE6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoICAAQgAQQsQM6FAguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDENQCOggIABCxAxCDAToOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QM6BQguEIAEOhAIABCABBCxAxCDARBGEP0BOgUIABCABDoLCAAQgAQQsQMQiwM6DggAEIAEELEDEIMBEIsDUABYqz1gpkZoAHAAeACAAagBiAHjDJIBBDE3LjKYAQCgAQG4AQI&sclient=gws-wiz&zx=1675125096590#sie=m;/g/11s62294rl;3;/m/05jvx;dt;fp;1;;;

- Torrey Craig 8 points.
- Dario Saric 2 points.
- Damion Lee 7 points.
- Bismack Biyombo 8 points.
- Saban Lee 7 points.
- Josh Okogie 2 points.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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My late to the party already being discussed contribution.

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://youtu.be/Gxfb7vkoMGE
Keith Smith and Trevor Lane discuss Jae Crowder at 27:00 minutes in.

Anything new?

Nothing too much honestly!
He mentions premised suns/ Bucks Crowder deal and says that the suns should save that as a last option until the deadline is really close because it's low value and will likely still be there then. And that the suns should try for bigger more "needle moving players by combining expirings and adding a first. He also mentions a Crowder/Saric/Payne/ Phoenix 1st for Collins deal as being the kind of target they should pursue.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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This would be really cool!

[bwgood77]

He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.

True, which goes for most all players when all their ball handlers are out. Most all Cs outside of about 2 or 3 do you want as one of your primary ball handlers.

And that's why you don't draft a C 1.1 unless he can be one of those guys


Ghost - I wasn't specifically talking about you, I was just having a little fun with some of the things I see about Ayton around here.

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I agree. I didn't want to draft him either, but water under the bridge, especially 5 years later. I'd post a beat dead horse gif but that would be repetitive too.

[BobbieL]

https://youtu.be/Gxfb7vkoMGE
Keith Smith and Trevor Lane discuss Jae Crowder at 27:00 minutes in.

Anything new?

Nothing too much honestly!
He mentions premised suns/ Bucks Crowder deal and says that the suns should save that as a last option until the deadline is really close because it's low value and will likely still be there then. And that the suns should try for bigger more "needle moving players by combining expirings and adding a first. He also mentions a Crowder/Saric/Payne/ Phoenix 1st for Collins deal as being the kind of target they should pursue.

Thanks for recap
So basically what the board has said
There will always be some deal for Crowder even if it’s the Shams deal to milwAukee
But they should try for something more - and they should

[bwgood77]

He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.

True, which goes for most all players when all their ball handlers are out. Most all Cs outside of about 2 or 3 do you want as one of your primary ball handlers.

Which proves the point I've been arguing with a bunch of other posters about, without CP3/Book, he's not who they think he could be.

True, but I don't think most people are arguing that he should lead a team with one other worthy starter, Saric, Craig and some 3rd string guard either. I don't think anyone would be particularly successful in that scenario. It's like people think he should be as good as a top 15 player of all time or 2 MVP candidates right now or he sucks.

[bwgood77]

See the logic is Booker and CP are good but they hold Ayton back, but if he plays with bad guards that really holds him back. So what he needs is DIFFERENT good guards... then it Dominayton season.


I don't agree but as far as I can tell that's the logic used.

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LOL I challenge you or anyone else to show a post I've made stating "Paul and Book are holding Ayton back! Because clearly I've never once said that. I've ever only said it would be beneficial to incorporate or feature him more in the offense IF they truly want to see greater in game development (similar to what Bridges has enjoyed) being featured more as the 3rd option in games. But everyone feel free to spin things whatever way you think benefits your narratives or arguments. Regardless of oppositional opinions here, the plain truth is that Ayton still normally scores with elite efficiency. And this is absolutely logical in premise of making him more of a factor to help collapse opposing defenses more frequently and not only getting higher percentage shot opportunities for our perimeter players to get in a good offensive flow. But also makes Ayton more of a notable threat and thusly taking pressure off of Book and Paul in the offensive scheme. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for so many to consider??

Ayton being featured as more of an offensive focal point given his elite offensive efficiency forces the defense to collapse on him. This in turn very obviously opens up the perimeter for Paul, Booker, Bridges, Johnson, even Shamet to get more wide open higher percentage looks. In being able to do this more easily, it also affords BOTH Paul and Book less wear and tear/ early exhaustion from having to ISO create and break down defenses. Also allowing them to conserve key energy early on to use in the 4th to more effectively close out games. Can everyone not truly see/ understand the principle benefits here? These considerations are my logic to make our offense easier and to try and conserve Paul and Book more and minimize the pressure and wear and tear on them down the stretch. But please, continue to deride my logic further.

DA's historically elite efficiency has always been a product of playing with Book/CP3. He wasn't efficient (for a big) when he started to have a bigger role on offense in his sophomore season but that efficiency sky rocketed to actually elite levels when CP3 came on board. With Book's injury, it was the perfect opportunity for DA to step up and take on a bigger role on offense which he did by averaging 16 FGA but he also got his 17ppg on poor efficiency. DA averaged a 47.4% FG%, which we all agree is pretty damn inefficient for a big man.

DA didn't have this elite offensive efficiency until CP3 got Phoenix (and pretty much every player benefited from CP3's presence too, that's undeniable) and he was ultra efficient in the playoffs because CP3/Book set things up for him. So if the rationale for featuring DA more as an offensive focal point is because of his elite offensive efficiency then I think that logic is broken because his elite efficiency comes specifically from not being featured as the offensive focal point.

It's still historically elite efficiency, and what was most impressive about it was that 2/3 of his shots were from midrange. It wasn't like he was hitting 2 footers or scoring at the rim or just dunking (though I know some people want him to just dunk). Plenty of bigs every year play with elite guards.

[bwgood77]

I just can't believe the deal being discussed with the Bucks is Nwora (though I don't know much about him), George Hill (who I liked a couple years ago), Serge (washed), and a 2nd round pick (though GoK will love that). Serge is shooting 48% from the field, Nwora 38.9% and George Hill 31% from 3. Doesn't seem like a very good return. I'd much much rather have Connaughton. Nwora is pretty good from 3, but 37.6% from 2. He is young though so maybe some upside. Same age as Ayton.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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1 week away from 1 week away?
That's honestly what it feels like here.

[TeamTragic]

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1 week away from 1 week away?
That's honestly what it feels like here.

Bruno Caboclo status

[bwgood77]

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1 week away from 1 week away?
That's honestly what it feels like here.

I hope he's not rushing back for the all star game...to get a few games in and make sure he's selected. If it's close I'd take the extra week +. I know he didn't play a couple years ago despite selection but I'm sure he wants to be selected. I'm not sure when that happens though...might be sooner than a week anyway. And he may get selected anyway.

[dremill24]

I just can't believe the deal being discussed with the Bucks is Nwora (though I don't know much about him), George Hill (who I liked a couple years ago), Serge (washed), and a 2nd round pick (though GoK will love that). Serge is shooting 48% from the field, Nwora 38.9% and George Hill 31% from 3. Doesn't seem like a very good return. I'd much much rather have Connaughton. Nwora is pretty good from 3, but 37.6% from 2. He is young though so maybe some upside. Same age as Ayton.

Its very uninspiring but its a situation where you're kind of over a barrel in needing to get rid of him for something. Normally you'd just keep him if you cant get what you think is good value but not really the case here. One would like to think that even in this situation, there being multiple suitors would drive up the price a bit but you can only get what others are willing to give up.

[BobbieL]

I just can't believe the deal being discussed with the Bucks is Nwora (though I don't know much about him), George Hill (who I liked a couple years ago), Serge (washed), and a 2nd round pick (though GoK will love that). Serge is shooting 48% from the field, Nwora 38.9% and George Hill 31% from 3. Doesn't seem like a very good return. I'd much much rather have Connaughton. Nwora is pretty good from 3, but 37.6% from 2. He is young though so maybe some upside. Same age as Ayton.

Or even Grayson Allen . Would rather flip those as part of a larger deal

[Ghost of Kleine]

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So then expirings and a protected 1st obviously!!