Worst peak of any player in/around your top 10 GOAT?

[Dutchball97]

For players inside my top 10 it's Magic as well. For "around" my top 10 (top 15-ish) it'd be Kobe. If we're looking at everyone mentioned here it'd be Karl Malone but I don't even have him top 20 anymore.

[eminence]

Of players in my top 10 I’d rank their peaks like so:

LeBron
KG
Duncan
Hakeem
MJ
KAJ
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Magic

So Magic for me.

Kg Duncan and Hakeem over MJ and Shaq? Kareem I can see but not those two really

Me like the 2 way bigs.

Wilt is the one I always feel like maybe I should be higher on (for peak), as I’ve always quite liked his focused defense and I do believe in his Sixers offense. I should probably move him above Shaq at least.

[ceoofkobefans]

Of players in my top 10 I’d rank their peaks like so:

LeBron
KG
Duncan
Hakeem
MJ
KAJ
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Magic

So Magic for me.

Kg Duncan and Hakeem over MJ and Shaq? Kareem I can see but not those two really

All three are significantly better defenders, that alone makes a strong argument.

Ok but the offensive gap is a lot bigger because it’s easier for one player to impact the game through offense than defense

[70sFan]

Kg Duncan and Hakeem over MJ and Shaq? Kareem I can see but not those two really

All three are significantly better defenders, that alone makes a strong argument.

Ok but the offensive gap is a lot bigger because it’s easier for one player to impact the game through offense than defense

That's your assumption.

Even if we assume it's true, then these guys are all offensive stars and GOAT-level defenders, while Shaq is offensive superstar and average defender.

[canada_dry]

Another example of why KG is overrated on here.

Yet everyone questions "how is he overrated? Where do you think people rate him?"

Well if hes in this conversation yes he's overrated.

And yes hes the answer to your question if you somehow think hes top 10 goat level.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Dr Positivity]

Kobe has one of the worst ratios of peak to career rank of anyone in top 10 conversation to me. 2008 if you choose it over Yolo Kobe seasons, is a rock solid Kobe season but in line with a number of his other ones, and wins MVP as a career achievement Oscar.

[ceoofkobefans]

All three are significantly better defenders, that alone makes a strong argument.

Ok but the offensive gap is a lot bigger because it’s easier for one player to impact the game through offense than defense

That's your assumption.

Even if we assume it's true, then these guys are all offensive stars and GOAT-level defenders, while Shaq is offensive superstar and average defender.

Shaq is not an average defender and is arguably a top 5 offensive player ever that’s more than an offensive superstar and offense is more valuable than defense

[trex_8063]

Probably Kobe and Karl Malone (presently #11 and #13 on my ATL [could see going to #12 with Mailman]).

Both are not top 20 peaks on my personal peak list (perhaps even fringe top 25 or so).
But both have outstanding longevity (especially Malone), and multiple years which could be considered peak (instead of one outlier year). Kobe's also got the noteworthy team success to "his" credit, and was a cultural icon. Those factors push them both up to the very edges of my top 10.

[Heej]

Another example of why KG is overrated on here.

Yet everyone questions "how is he overrated? Where do you think people rate him?"

Well if hes in this conversation yes he's overrated.

And yes hes the answer to your question if you somehow think hes top 10 goat level.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Yea I'm sorry KG was an animal and all but he's not a top 10 peak for me. I guess in my top 10 list I'd have to give the lowest peak to Hakeem. I'd rather have Magic Bird Timmy Wilt Shaq and the Mt Rushmore boys over him. Magic was nasty even in the 91 Finals, and he led the best some of the best playoff offenses ever. I know his team was stacked but he could make anyone look good. It's tough but I just don't think I'd take Hakeem over him

[MiamiBulls]

The weakest peak would be Magic Johnson and Kobe Bryant.

[70sFan]

Ok but the offensive gap is a lot bigger because it’s easier for one player to impact the game through offense than defense

That's your assumption.

Even if we assume it's true, then these guys are all offensive stars and GOAT-level defenders, while Shaq is offensive superstar and average defender.

Shaq is not an average defender and is arguably a top 5 offensive player ever that’s more than an offensive superstar and offense is more valuable than defense

Shaq has so many weaknesses as a defender that you can actually argue he's closer to below average than good. Even in his famous 2000 season, Lakers defense underperformed massively in the playoffs in big part due to Shaq's very limited abilities on that end.

I wouldn't have Shaq inside top 5 offensive players ever at this point. You have James, Jordan, Magic, Curry, Nash, Jokic, Oscar, West, Bird and Kareem - that's already 10. I don't think you can leave 6 of them to put Shaq in top 5.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm getting lower on Shaq over the years. I agree with 70sfan. There was a push back to Shaq being a bad defender with the pretex "well before he got fat he could run well and block shots", perhaps this is true but it still understates that Shaq had very limited lateral movement and his gas tank wasn't the best. Shaq got burned out and disengaged many times even in his defensive prime.

Shaq as an offensive player is not top 5. He wasn't "actually" unstoppable at scoring. If he was he would have more points on better efficiency. There are players who volume score better than Shaq, can do it from more places on the court, can do it without the ball, can create their own shot further from the rim. That's just scoring there is the entire playmaking aspect of the game where Shaq is just a center who makes good reads out of low post double teams compared to floor generals like Oscar or volume passing savants like Jokic.

[70sFan]

I'm getting lower on Shaq over the years. I agree with 70sfan. There was a push back to Shaq being a bad defender with the pretex "well before he got fat he could run well and block shots", perhaps this is true but it still understates that Shaq had very limited lateral movement and his gas tank wasn't the best. Shaq got burned out and disengaged many times even in his defensive prime.

Shaq as an offensive player is not top 5. He wasn't "actually" unstoppable at scoring. If he was he would have more points on better efficiency. There are players who volume score better than Shaq, can do it from more places on the court, can do it without the ball, can create their own shot further from the rim. That's just scoring there is the entire playmaking aspect of the game where Shaq is just a center who makes good reads out of low post double teams compared to floor generals like Oscar or volume passing savants like Jokic.

To be fair to Shaq, his biggest strength as an offensive player is his off-ball contribution where he had an immense impact. He drew a lot of defensive attention, was GOAT-level inside finisher and outstanding offensive rebounder. It was very hard to keep him away from the paint and he was in constant movement.

I think people misunderstand what made Shaq so good. Everytime we discuss about him, people start talking about him being literally unstoppable one on one and dunking on 7 footers 10 times per game, but once you start getting deeper and deeper, it comes out that Shaq wasn't very efficient isolation scorer and he took a lot of inefficient shots like fadeaways and one handers (the same ones people criticize Wilt for by the way). He's not even close to someone like Kareem as a shot creator. Scoring isn't what makes Shaq so impactful, it's his agression and smart movement without the ball.

I am still relatively high on his offense, but I don't see his case for top 5 ever.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm getting lower on Shaq over the years. I agree with 70sfan. There was a push back to Shaq being a bad defender with the pretex "well before he got fat he could run well and block shots", perhaps this is true but it still understates that Shaq had very limited lateral movement and his gas tank wasn't the best. Shaq got burned out and disengaged many times even in his defensive prime.

Shaq as an offensive player is not top 5. He wasn't "actually" unstoppable at scoring. If he was he would have more points on better efficiency. There are players who volume score better than Shaq, can do it from more places on the court, can do it without the ball, can create their own shot further from the rim. That's just scoring there is the entire playmaking aspect of the game where Shaq is just a center who makes good reads out of low post double teams compared to floor generals like Oscar or volume passing savants like Jokic.

To be fair to Shaq, his biggest strength as an offensive player is his off-ball contribution where he had an immense impact. He drew a lot of defensive attention, was GOAT-level inside finisher and outstanding offensive rebounder. It was very hard to keep him away from the paint and he was in constant movement.

I think people misunderstand what made Shaq so good. Everytime we discuss about him, people start talking about him being literally unstoppable one on one and dunking on 7 footers 10 times per game, but once you start getting deeper and deeper, it comes out that Shaq wasn't very efficient isolation scorer and he took a lot of inefficient shots like fadeaways and one handers (the same ones people criticize Wilt for by the way). He's not even close to someone like Kareem as a shot creator. Scoring isn't what makes Shaq so impactful, it's his agression and smart movement without the ball.

I am still relatively high on his offense, but I don't see his case for top 5 ever.

Most good post players are good offball players but I didn't want to make my post clunky - and I'm thinking relative to all time great off ball players.

[70sFan]

I'm getting lower on Shaq over the years. I agree with 70sfan. There was a push back to Shaq being a bad defender with the pretex "well before he got fat he could run well and block shots", perhaps this is true but it still understates that Shaq had very limited lateral movement and his gas tank wasn't the best. Shaq got burned out and disengaged many times even in his defensive prime.

Shaq as an offensive player is not top 5. He wasn't "actually" unstoppable at scoring. If he was he would have more points on better efficiency. There are players who volume score better than Shaq, can do it from more places on the court, can do it without the ball, can create their own shot further from the rim. That's just scoring there is the entire playmaking aspect of the game where Shaq is just a center who makes good reads out of low post double teams compared to floor generals like Oscar or volume passing savants like Jokic.

To be fair to Shaq, his biggest strength as an offensive player is his off-ball contribution where he had an immense impact. He drew a lot of defensive attention, was GOAT-level inside finisher and outstanding offensive rebounder. It was very hard to keep him away from the paint and he was in constant movement.

I think people misunderstand what made Shaq so good. Everytime we discuss about him, people start talking about him being literally unstoppable one on one and dunking on 7 footers 10 times per game, but once you start getting deeper and deeper, it comes out that Shaq wasn't very efficient isolation scorer and he took a lot of inefficient shots like fadeaways and one handers (the same ones people criticize Wilt for by the way). He's not even close to someone like Kareem as a shot creator. Scoring isn't what makes Shaq so impactful, it's his agression and smart movement without the ball.

I am still relatively high on his offense, but I don't see his case for top 5 ever.

Most good post players are good offball players but I didn't want to make my post clunky - and I'm thinking relative to all time great off ball players.

I think there is a difference in off-ball play between someone like Shaq or Kareem and someone like Hakeem for example. Shaq was excellent off-ball even for elite post player.

I understand your point though and agree with your conclusion.

[SS_Carpathia]

Wait, why does Jordan get this comment but Garnett and Robinson these comparatively positive ones?

Been thinking about this a bit. It’s very, very tough since I’m peak-heavy, and weight very strong years more than typical prime years.
Jordan - probably not (but there’s an outside argument)

Garnett - he’s a candidate but I think his peak years were strong
Robinson - his peak was fine

[70sFan]

Wait, why does Jordan get this comment but Garnett and Robinson these comparatively positive ones?

Been thinking about this a bit. It’s very, very tough since I’m peak-heavy, and weight very strong years more than typical prime years.
Jordan - probably not (but there’s an outside argument)

Garnett - he’s a candidate but I think his peak years were strong
Robinson - his peak was fine

It means that Jordan "probably" isn't the worst peak, so it's a more positive comment than in KG case.