Is this the greatest peak of all-time?

[AleksandarN]

Rings are team accomplishments fwiw. I would never hold it against Jokic for not winning a title when he's played with 0 all-stars in his 8 year career. Hell, even guys like LeBron who I consider serious floor raisers and capable of carrying teams to titles played with all-stars and won nothing until he basically teamed up with 2 other all-stars and countless HOFers...

I will say this and I hope you soak it in. Jokic won't be relevant once he retires if he doesn't win a championship. History has proven it with other all time greats.

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By the casuals? Sure. But anyone who can think critically about the situation will realize that no NBA superstar has ever gone an entire career without playing alongside another superstar. Jokic is 8 seasons into his career and no all-star teammate coming into view - if Gordon makes it that's based purely on Jokic raising his game from the journeyman bum he was into an all-star.

The experts (aka people paid to write their opinions) will view his advanced metrics + individual awards and realize he stacks up along all the other GOATs and greats. Easy to win a title when you have guys like Havlicek / Cousy, McHale / Parish, Abdul Jabbar / Worthy, Pippen/Rodman, Robinson/Manu/Parker, Kobe, Wade/Bosh, Gasol, etc.

Now compare that to ... Aaron Gordon.

To be in the top 10 of all time Jokic definitely needs chips multiple ones. To be an all time great you need chips why do you think Lebron went to the Heat

[LessEyeTest]

I will say this and I hope you soak it in. Jokic won't be relevant once he retires if he doesn't win a championship. History has proven it with other all time greats.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

By the casuals? Sure. But anyone who can think critically about the situation will realize that no NBA superstar has ever gone an entire career without playing alongside another superstar. Jokic is 8 seasons into his career and no all-star teammate coming into view - if Gordon makes it that's based purely on Jokic raising his game from the journeyman bum he was into an all-star.

The experts (aka people paid to write their opinions) will view his advanced metrics + individual awards and realize he stacks up along all the other GOATs and greats. Easy to win a title when you have guys like Havlicek / Cousy, McHale / Parish, Abdul Jabbar / Worthy, Pippen/Rodman, Robinson/Manu/Parker, Kobe, Wade/Bosh, Gasol, etc.

Now compare that to ... Aaron Gordon.

To be in the top 10 of all time Jokic definitely needs chips multiple ones. To be an all time great you need chips why do you think Lebron went to the Heat

Then I hope Jokic & Doncic team up so that he has a good running mate. Or maybe he and Giannis team up so they neutralize each others weaknesses.

[kuclas]

Jokic fans have got to take breath abs get some perspective. Winning and winning big is a giant part of being a great and historic. Also playing both end of floor matters as well. And Jokic is easily exposed on the other end. He needs to start beating and outplaying the other greats (like Embiid, Giannis, AD etc) head to head and put up a couple chips before we can start looking at him seriously in an all-time context.

Jokic is great. There is no doubt about it. But metric stats mean nothing for overall legacy. He’s lucky to even have one western conference finals under his belt. And frankly it took a ton of luck just to overcome two (3-1) deficits in series. If it were a normal 7 game series. I highly doubt they even beat the clippers with clippers having home court advantage.

Championships do take some luck. But it also requires it’s stars to shine. Jokic offensive stats are great in the playoffs. But he becomes a defensive liability in the playoffs. We can’t keep making excuses.

If you are all time great. You will your team.

If he can’t. It will be excuses after excuses.

My personal opinion is no matter how great center play is. You need more of a defensive center first. and elite wing play in the playoffs.

Look at the last 30 plus years playoff play. Outside of the shaq championship years and Hakeem. It’s been wing players who were the most important key to the title. And we all know if it weren’t for Kobe. Shaq likely doesn’t get a ring. and it took crazy Dwayne wade play to win a title for shaq as well.

Duncan and Dirk say hi...

They are not true centers.

[kuclas]

leading the league in PER/WinShares/Per48/BPM/VORP has happened 26 of the 49 seasons since all 5 advanced metrics are available.
21, 22, 23(if maintained) Joker
2016 Steph
2014 Durant
09, 10, 11, 12, 13 Lebron
04 KG
00 Shaq
94, 95 DRob
88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 Jordan
85, 86 Bird
74, 76, 77, 79 Kareem

From a strictly advanced metric viewpoint these are the greatest seasons in the last 49 seasons. From a strictly advanced metric viewpoint these 26 seasons are the only times we ever had a clear cut best player(there’s been many times when someone had 4 of the 5 metrics as well).

Why didn’t lebron win 5 mvp in a row? Heck lebron didn’t win 3 mvp in a row. He was clearly the best player in the world during that period. Ever one knows that.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic is great. There is no doubt about it. But metric stats mean nothing for overall legacy. He’s lucky to even have one western conference finals under his belt. And frankly it took a ton of luck just to overcome two (3-1) deficits in series. If it were a normal 7 game series. I highly doubt they even beat the clippers with clippers having home court advantage.

Championships do take some luck. But it also requires it’s stars to shine. Jokic offensive stats are great in the playoffs. But he becomes a defensive liability in the playoffs. We can’t keep making excuses.

If you are all time great. You will your team.

If he can’t. It will be excuses after excuses.

My personal opinion is no matter how great center play is. You need more of a defensive center first. and elite wing play in the playoffs.

Look at the last 30 plus years playoff play. Outside of the shaq championship years and Hakeem. It’s been wing players who were the most important key to the title. And we all know if it weren’t for Kobe. Shaq likely doesn’t get a ring. and it took crazy Dwayne wade play to win a title for shaq as well.

Duncan and Dirk say hi...

They are not true centers.

Duncan is the text book center. And Dirk isn't a wing. He actually is a rare example of a guy who kinda played in the text book small forward zone like you'd see a middle school team diagram.

[kuclas]

Duncan and Dirk say hi...

They are not true centers.

Duncan is the text book center. And Dirk isn't a wing. He actually is a rare example of a guy who kinda played in the text book small forward zone like you'd see a middle school team diagram.

Look at the spurs starting lineups all of Duncan’s career. The first 6 years was with David Robinson alone.

Even in his last championship year 2013-2014. Dude named
Tiago Splitter started half the games at center.

If you can honestly tell me he started at center even 60% of the time in his career. I may buy it. He did not.

[dhsilv2]

They are not true centers.

Duncan is the text book center. And Dirk isn't a wing. He actually is a rare example of a guy who kinda played in the text book small forward zone like you'd see a middle school team diagram.

Look at the spurs starting lineups all of Duncan’s career. The first 6 years was with David Robinson alone.

Even in his last championship year 2013-2014. Dude named
Tiago Splitter started half the games at center.

If you can honestly tell me he started at center even 60% of the time in his career. I may buy it. He did not.

He played every single minute of his career at center. Just because the spurs ran a 2 center lineup at times doesn't make him not a center. There's a reason that the "argument" for duncan as a powerforward aways leads to "look who else played". It's because Duncan's game is text book center and the only argument is "well so and so was the center so we gotta call duncan something else".

[Gregoire]

MJ
Lebron
Shaq
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Jokic