NBA players are better than ever, despite what the legends say

[C_Alejandro]

The NBA game wasn’t as violent as they claim it was. There were lots of ticky-tack fouls called, and hand-checking was never a serious defensive tactic.

Watch full NBA games from that era. The game tape doesn’t lie.

Hand-checking was absolutely a thing. It killed offenses. The game was a lot more physical in the past, especially in the playoffs. Either you weren't around or you are misremembering? I'm not trying to validate hyperbolic statements. It's just a fact. Some of those 90s playoff series were brutal to watch.

Try handchecking a wing player today and you’re only asking to get blown by. We’re talking about modern athletes here. Not guys at the YMCA

Did handchecking help in certain possessions? Sure. But it’s not the dealbreaker these older heads claim it was. And there were rule changes (like the abolishing of Illegal Defence in 2001) that were far more consequential in aiding the defences

[C_Alejandro]

Are players better passers today? Watching an NBA player try to make a basic post pass is actually embarrassing. The average NBA player is mostly relegated to swing passes and drive and kick passes. The Star players are comparable to Star players from the 80's, 90's, 2000's.

Are players better post scorers? Most Bigs don't even have a post game these days, and I'm still waiting for someone to at least try to master the Skyhook; you know, the move that led to most points scored in the history of the sport. Guys like Hakeem (90's) and McHale (80's) would embarrass any modern NBA post scorer.

Are players better midrange shooters? I'm not sure, maybe someone can post some stats. Seems like the only NBA players taking midrange shots consistently are Star players. The average NBA player is standing in the corner shooting the 3-ball or attacking the rim.

Are players better defenders? Defensive strategies have improved, and the overall emphasis on defense has increased, but I'd take 90's defensive Stars over modern NBA defensive Stars. The modern rules have made it so hard to defend, it's hard to tell if individual defense ability has improved.

Ultimately, players will be good at what they practice, and will practice what works (rules). I would say the average NBA player is more skilled today, but not at every aspect of the game. At the Star level not much has changed outside of improved 3pnt shooting at every position.

Players today are better passers than ever. The idea that you’re insinuating that they can’t pass is absurd. The opposite is the case

And there’s a reason why post-up sets have declined in popularity. It’s much easier to shade towards the ball, double a player without the ball, and make it harder for post-scorers to thrive. Hence why there’s a lot more spread pick and rolls, drive and kicks, and other offensive sets. Back in the 90s, the Illegal Defence rules GUARANTEED that you could go 1-on-1 against your man before the help defence could arrive.

Look at the game tape of iso scorers on the wing, while they call for a clear-out, forcing every other defensive player onto the weak side. Tom Thibodeau’s defensive tactics helped kill that style of play. It’s not due to lack of skill. It’s simply adjusting to the more sophisticated defences.

[C_Alejandro]

Players generally are much more skilled today. They are also stronger and fitter because they simply have a lot more resources allocated to them than back then.

On the flip side, you are wrong about hand checking - it was real and it was a serious defensive tactic. Many guards (eg. Doc Rivers) didn't even need to be fast they just needed to be strong so they could hold your waist while you tried to get by them. That kind of defence simply does not happen today where everything is biased towards the offensive player.

So a lot of players that had good careers back then wouldn't get on the court now because they're not fast enough to play defence just with their feet.

Then again, you could imagine some of the good offensive players from back then would blow up in today's game without that kind of defensive pressure being applied - especially the faster guys with handle.

It's not a black and white argument.

Doc Rivers wouldn’t make a roster today. I agree. A lot of the slow lumbering big men of the 90s would struggle to defend the pick-and-roll from 30 feet out, forcing them off the court.

And when it comes to talented wing scorers like Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler, the focus would be on team defences and forcing the ball out of their hand

[Dan Z]

Sure. Everyone looks good when they are allowed to travel and carry.

Yes...call that (and get rid of the step back three...because the two steps allowed were originally meant for forward momentum) and you have a better game IMO.

[Pachinko_]

There is no logical way to explain how the talent is not better now.
If anything there's been a giant talent infusion from

a) the whole world. Back then the Jokic/Doncic types would probably have stayed overseas until mid-late in their career (same way Arvydas Sabonis, Drazen, Kukoc, Manu etc stayed in Europe for a while for a variety of reasons), the Gobert/Vucevic types wouldn't even make it to the NBA at all (like Nick Galis or Oscar Schmidt didn't make it) and the Embiid/Siakam types probably wouldn't even know that basketball is a sport.

b) from the simple fact that the top talent starts in the NBA earlier instead of waiting to finish college.

People are maybe forgetting but there was *a lot* of super crap players in the NBA back then. A lot, especially bigs.

Are they saying that Doncic wouldn't be as effective if you hand check him and then elbow him in the ribs and punch him in the face? Sure. But that has nothing to do with his talent and nobody wants to watch that crap anyway, we moved away from it for a reason: there are other sports that do that better.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think the roles players tend to take on today has become more specialized while offense has become more streamlined which in turn allows them to train more for it and be more effective as a result. Plus the nba draws from a wider player pool today compared to 20-30 years ago. Probably 50% wider at least. We don't have teams settling for the same bad shots they used to on most possessions.

[MavsDirk41]

Fair enough. But that also goes in the other direction. The elimination of the Illegal Defence rules has made it easier for defences to run more sophisticated defensive schemes.

I see older-heads claim that Jordan could average 45 points today. That’s patently false. If he couldn’t do 45 in his era, there’s no way he could do it in a more talented league

Luka has multiple 40 and 50 point games this season only, i dont think Jordan averages 45 a game but close to 40, yea. By the way did you grow up watching the nba in the 90s? Or you going off youtube videos? Im curious

I’m barely old enough to have remembered Bulls Jordan, but I really started watching the game in 2000. So I’ve been a ball fan for over 2 decades now, and I used to believe back then that I missed out on the “golden era” of Bird, Magic and Jordan.

Jordan averaged 33 per game as a Bull. Mitch Richmond averaged something like 26 per game for a few seasons. If Jordan could average 45, does this mean Mitch would’ve also averaged 40? Is Mitch a better player than the current superstars?

Why is it that people isolate Jordan as if he was the only big-time scorer of his era? If he would average 45 today, then so would every other star, including the likes of Reggie Miller and others. That makes zero sense

Im not here to get into a Jordan debate but Jordan in late 80s averaged 37ppg one year. Again i dont think Jordan averages 45ppg a game but 36-38? Yea, possibly. Luka is averaging 34ppg a game. Luka is not nearly as skilled offensively as peak Jordan. Ive been watching the nba since 87 so i can attest to it. Im not a huge Jordan fan either.

[C_Alejandro]

There is no logical way to explain how the talent is not better now.
If anything there's been a giant talent infusion from

a) the whole world. Back then the Jokic/Doncic types would probably have stayed overseas until mid-late in their career (same way Arvydas Sabonis, Drazen, Kukoc, Manu etc stayed in Europe for a while for a variety of reasons), the Gobert/Vucevic types wouldn't even make it to the NBA at all (like Nick Galis or Oscar Schmidt didn't make it) and the Embiid/Siakam types probably wouldn't even know that basketball is a sport.

b) from the simple fact that the top talent starts in the NBA earlier instead of waiting to finish college.

People are maybe forgetting but there was *a lot* of super crap players in the NBA back then. A lot, especially bigs.

Are they saying that Doncic wouldn't be as effective if you hand check him and then elbow him in the ribs and punch him in the face? Sure. But that has nothing to do with his talent and nobody wants to watch that crap anyway, we moved away from it for a reason: there are other sports that do that better.

I completely agree.

Again, no other sport denigrates the current era the way NBA legends do. We’ve seen rule changes for soccer and NFL football, but football/soccer fans reasonably believe that today’s era is better than ever. Or at the very least, it’s comparable to what existed in the 1990s.

Do you know how many times I hear casual fans saying, “I don’t watch today’s NBA anymore. Most of these guys are scrubs and aren’t as good as the players back then.”

It’s an unbelievably common trope, repeated by many people who weren’t even old enough to remember the 1990s.

And it’s because of bitter ex-players like Charles Barkley, Charles Oakley, Shaq and others. They constantly denigrate the current era, and this bleeds into the psychology of the fans who watch the sport.

I’ve heard guys like Aries Spears say the 2017 Golden State Warriors MAY avoid being swept by the 1996 Bulls. The Bulls couldn’t even sweep the Sonics, yet you mean to tell me they’d fare better against the 2017 Warriors? It’s absurd.

We need to call it out. As fans of the sport of basketball

[Got Nuffin]

Players generally are much more skilled today. They are also stronger and fitter because they simply have a lot more resources allocated to them than back then.

On the flip side, you are wrong about hand checking - it was real and it was a serious defensive tactic. Many guards (eg. Doc Rivers) didn't even need to be fast they just needed to be strong so they could hold your waist while you tried to get by them. That kind of defence simply does not happen today where everything is biased towards the offensive player.

So a lot of players that had good careers back then wouldn't get on the court now because they're not fast enough to play defence just with their feet.

Then again, you could imagine some of the good offensive players from back then would blow up in today's game without that kind of defensive pressure being applied - especially the faster guys with handle.

It's not a black and white argument.

Doc Rivers wouldn’t make a roster today. I agree. A lot of the slow lumbering big men of the 90s would struggle to defend the pick-and-roll from 30 feet out, forcing them off the court.

And when it comes to talented wing scorers like Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler, the focus would be on team defences and forcing the ball out of their hand

But when they did have the ball in their hands it absolutely be all over. Can you imagine Phoenix guard Kevin Johnson playing with no hand checks? One the fastest / most athletic point guards in the history of the game and he could shift speeds at the drop of a hat. Tony Parker on steroids. He had a nice career but I imagine he would be unguardable in today's league.

[Nate505]

Let me correct the thread for you, NBA Players are better and smarter than ever. What's the point of playing 80+ games and 38+ minutes every game these days? How they defend decades back is way different how the game works now. Big men are forced to defend in space and faster pace today while they can just camp in the paint before, injuries are through the roof simply because defenders have so much space to cover every game. Unless NBA implements a no-work-no-pay policy where Kawhi will lose $518,201 every game he miss based on his salary, load-management is here to say. It's the new META. superstars like Giannis averaging less than 33 minutes per game in his entire career while Iverson averaged 41+ minutes in 15 seasons.

I get why it exists. But it's also why the older generation is going to call the newer one soft.

At the end of the day, if you're the newer generation, who cares if they call you soft. You can just chalk it up to jealousy and sleep sound in your gigantic mansion on your massive piles of money or whatever. But it's the one thing the older generation will have to hang their hats on so to speak. For me, even though I get it, I do get a bit deflated when I see the Jazz play a team and then half their starting lineup is out because it's on the tail end of a back to back or whatever. Even though I understand it, I can't say I like it, and I tend to agree with the older generation on that one.

[C_Alejandro]

Luka has multiple 40 and 50 point games this season only, i dont think Jordan averages 45 a game but close to 40, yea. By the way did you grow up watching the nba in the 90s? Or you going off youtube videos? Im curious

I’m barely old enough to have remembered Bulls Jordan, but I really started watching the game in 2000. So I’ve been a ball fan for over 2 decades now, and I used to believe back then that I missed out on the “golden era” of Bird, Magic and Jordan.

Jordan averaged 33 per game as a Bull. Mitch Richmond averaged something like 26 per game for a few seasons. If Jordan could average 45, does this mean Mitch would’ve also averaged 40? Is Mitch a better player than the current superstars?

Why is it that people isolate Jordan as if he was the only big-time scorer of his era? If he would average 45 today, then so would every other star, including the likes of Reggie Miller and others. That makes zero sense

Im not here to get into a Jordan debate but Jordan in late 80s averaged 37ppg one year. Again i dont think Jordan averages 45ppg a game but 36-38? Yea, possibly. Luka is averaging 34ppg a game. Luka is not nearly as skilled offensively as peak Jordan. Ive been watching the nba since 87 so i can attest to it. Im not a huge Jordan fan either.

Look at the defences that Jordan was facing during the 1987 NBA season. It doesn’t compare to the defences today.

Again, if Mitch Richmond could average 26 during the “tougher” 1990s, would he do better than James Harden, Durant and Luka today? Of course not

I think Jordan is the GOAT. Absolutely love him. Dude was an inspiration and he dominated his era like no one else. But Jordan played in a weaker less talented league, and that’s no one’s fault. Athletes get better over time, and teams get better. There’s no way Jordan is defeating the 2017 Warriors. No way at all

[C_Alejandro]

If Kevin Durant was put in a Time Machine back to 1989, he could’ve easily scored 40 ppg. Dude is a 7 foot athletic wing scorer with unlimited range. They would’ve thought he was an alien.

Give the current guys their flowers. I hate seeing people overlook the sheer level of talent we’re witnessing today

[Kingdibs19]

This NBA season has the deepest level of talent we’ve ever seen. We have players from Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Steph, Ja, Kyrie, and many other talents. Even the role players are incredibly versatile and skilled.

Yet every single day, I see constant comments from older heads like Charles Oakley saying that Giannis wouldn’t make an NBA roster in the 1990s. Or that Steph would get bullied by the likes of Isiah Thomas

I’m all for respecting the NBA older-heads, but no other sport does this. NFL and soccer fans aren’t constantly listening to legends denigrating the current game. They barely even do analysis anymore.

I see guys like SHAQ who didn’t even know who Rui Hachimura was, despite his literal job being paid to talk about basketball. Yet this same guy will denigrate the current talent and say they’re “soft.”

It’s honestly killing the product. Fans believe what these legends say, and their nostalgia leads them to believe that NBA superstars today would struggle in the 1990s. That’s false. The opposite is true. Yet I’m seeing 21 year olds who falsely believe that they missed out on the golden era of basketball.

Again, no other sport does this. Basketball is beset by this cancer of nostalgia bias and Jordan worship, and it needs to stop if this sport is to thrive.

David West agrees with OP.

Watch on YouTube

[MavsDirk41]

I’m barely old enough to have remembered Bulls Jordan, but I really started watching the game in 2000. So I’ve been a ball fan for over 2 decades now, and I used to believe back then that I missed out on the “golden era” of Bird, Magic and Jordan.

Jordan averaged 33 per game as a Bull. Mitch Richmond averaged something like 26 per game for a few seasons. If Jordan could average 45, does this mean Mitch would’ve also averaged 40? Is Mitch a better player than the current superstars?

Why is it that people isolate Jordan as if he was the only big-time scorer of his era? If he would average 45 today, then so would every other star, including the likes of Reggie Miller and others. That makes zero sense

Im not here to get into a Jordan debate but Jordan in late 80s averaged 37ppg one year. Again i dont think Jordan averages 45ppg a game but 36-38? Yea, possibly. Luka is averaging 34ppg a game. Luka is not nearly as skilled offensively as peak Jordan. Ive been watching the nba since 87 so i can attest to it. Im not a huge Jordan fan either.

Look at the defences that Jordan was facing during the 1987 NBA season. It doesn’t compare to the defences today.

Again, if Mitch Richmond could average 26 during the “tougher” 1990s, would he do better than James Harden, Durant and Luka today? Of course not

I think Jordan is the GOAT. Absolutely love him. Dude was an inspiration and he dominated his era like no one else. But Jordan played in a weaker less talented league, and that’s no one’s fault. Athletes get better over time, and teams get better. There’s no way Jordan is defeating the 2017 Warriors. No way at all

You call out old heads for yelling at clouds but you are talking about Jordan facing weaker defenses and a weaker league and you started watching the nba in 2000?

Lol just stop please. Players are lighting up the scoreboard everynight but defenses are better? The league is no better today. Do you have proof that its better? And the 96 Bulls might have beat the 2017 Warriors

[Fantastik_Goat]

I can easily show you a compilation of hard fouls over the last 5 years. That’s not what we use to judge eras

I know you like to watch tape of the same 5 hard fouls committed by Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman, but that’s not what we use to judge eras.

And I’ve watched FULL playoff series. As well as regular season games. The physicality you speak of is completely overrated.

I remember back in 2000, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar would claim that the current NBA players were too rough and brutish, while his era had more “finesse and skill.” He said this as an underhanded shot against Shaq, who was MVP at the time.

So they change their argument whenever it suits them.

Wow!! Whole playoff series? Tell me more ye wise sage and graduate of YouTube University. You're basically mansplaining - I've watched NBA basketball from the 80's through to today.

Not to diminish your contributions but your post and subsequent posts in this thread are basically code for "how to say you're young and haven't seen much ball from the era you're ripping without saying it".

Yes, entire playoff series. I’ve watched every NBA Finals game Jordan played in, as well as multiple Conference Finals series, first round series, regular season games. I watched every Bird-Magic Finals matchup, as well as playoff series involving Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, etc.

And stop with this “young kid” nonsense. I’m a grown man in my 30’s with a wife and kid. I’m not some 12 year old who just started watching

Your memories of what you’ve seen 30 years ago doesn’t compare to someone actually watching it today.

Maybe if you don’t want people to call you a kid you should stop referring to people as old-heads.

[MavsDirk41]

If Kevin Durant was put in a Time Machine back to 1989, he could’ve easily scored 40 ppg. Dude is a 7 foot athletic wing scorer with unlimited range. They would’ve thought he was an alien.

Give the current guys their flowers. I hate seeing people overlook the sheer level of talent we’re witnessing today

Kevin Durant cant even stay on the court lol

[MavsDirk41]

This NBA season has the deepest level of talent we’ve ever seen. We have players from Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Steph, Ja, Kyrie, and many other talents. Even the role players are incredibly versatile and skilled.

Yet every single day, I see constant comments from older heads like Charles Oakley saying that Giannis wouldn’t make an NBA roster in the 1990s. Or that Steph would get bullied by the likes of Isiah Thomas

I’m all for respecting the NBA older-heads, but no other sport does this. NFL and soccer fans aren’t constantly listening to legends denigrating the current game. They barely even do analysis anymore.

I see guys like SHAQ who didn’t even know who Rui Hachimura was, despite his literal job being paid to talk about basketball. Yet this same guy will denigrate the current talent and say they’re “soft.”

It’s honestly killing the product. Fans believe what these legends say, and their nostalgia leads them to believe that NBA superstars today would struggle in the 1990s. That’s false. The opposite is true. Yet I’m seeing 21 year olds who falsely believe that they missed out on the golden era of basketball.

Again, no other sport does this. Basketball is beset by this cancer of nostalgia bias and Jordan worship, and it needs to stop if this sport is to thrive.

David West agrees with OP.

Watch on YouTube

David West?? Oh wow lol

[Bornstellar]

This thread again?

[C_Alejandro]

Im not here to get into a Jordan debate but Jordan in late 80s averaged 37ppg one year. Again i dont think Jordan averages 45ppg a game but 36-38? Yea, possibly. Luka is averaging 34ppg a game. Luka is not nearly as skilled offensively as peak Jordan. Ive been watching the nba since 87 so i can attest to it. Im not a huge Jordan fan either.

Look at the defences that Jordan was facing during the 1987 NBA season. It doesn’t compare to the defences today.

Again, if Mitch Richmond could average 26 during the “tougher” 1990s, would he do better than James Harden, Durant and Luka today? Of course not

I think Jordan is the GOAT. Absolutely love him. Dude was an inspiration and he dominated his era like no one else. But Jordan played in a weaker less talented league, and that’s no one’s fault. Athletes get better over time, and teams get better. There’s no way Jordan is defeating the 2017 Warriors. No way at all

You call out old heads for yelling at clouds but you are talking about Jordan facing weaker defenses and a weaker league and you started watching the nba in 2000?

Lol just stop please. Players are lighting up the scoreboard everynight but defenses are better? The league is no better today. Do you have proof that its better? And the 96 Bulls might have beat the 2017 Warriors

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. 1980s NBA players were weaker and less talented than the current NBA players.

Players lighting up the scoreboard does not correlate to the defences today being worse than in the 1980s. It could simply be that players are far more offensively skilled, leading to them going off for 40 points. Back then, you’d struggle to find even 1 player who shot more than 90% from the free throw line. Today we have over a dozen players who consistently shoot over 90% on their free throws. And this is a free throw, where defence is completely irrelevant. These new guys are really really talented

The eye test doesn’t lie.

The 2017 Warriors would have run the 1996 Bulls out of the gym. Multiple three-point threats on the floor at the same time, and they’d make mincemeat of those Bulls. The Bulls didn’t have the offensive firepower to keep up with three 30 ppg scorers on the court at the same time, as well as an elite defence and a decent amount of role players.

[PedroFlu]

Absolutely agree with the OP. The NBA is obviously immensely talented right now, full of stars from different generations and also with high level role players. Players are more complete than ever. I don't think this notion is even debatable. It's a matter of logic.

Btw, I don't know if in 5 yrs it will be the same. Maybe this is a real special moment, because older guys like LeBron, Harden, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Butler, Kyrie, are still fantastic players - while you have new all timers at their peak, like Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, and also others who are about to peak - Tatum, Doncic, Morant, etc.

After the old guard really declines in the next years, I don't know if the influx of potential superstars will make up for it. Maybe this is a truly unique moment.

But it is indeed unbalanced. The league needs to URGENTLY go back to giving defense some hope and some calls. It's absolutely getting out of control, also considering the travelling and carrying and stuff. They really need to push back a little.

But the fact rules are excessively relaxed absolutely doesn't account for all the incredible amount of superstar and medium talent on the league today. Obviously players are in general better than before, and there are more star players. And no, they aren't artificially manufactered by new rules. It just needs to be dialed back a little bit.

I mean, OP is right. The game in the 90s and 2000s was boring as ****, let's admit it. Timeouts the whole time, dribble, dribble, clank. It was simply weaker.

Missing some games is absolutely necessary. You can't look at the amount of injuries and think this is normal. The game is evidently much more taxing than before. Much harder to rest, either on defense or on offense.

What bothers is how conceived this new players are, and honestly, the obscene amount of money they make. It is annoying indeed.

But in general, OP is absolutely on point. And yes, it is annoying to see older players complain about it non stop. There's obviously some jealousy in it. Are players softer? In general, yes, they are. Society is. But they are also much better.