NBA players are better than ever, despite what the legends say

[Jkam31]

There is no logical way to explain how the talent is not better now.
If anything there's been a giant talent infusion from

a) the whole world. Back then the Jokic/Doncic types would probably have stayed overseas until mid-late in their career (same way Arvydas Sabonis, Drazen, Kukoc, Manu etc stayed in Europe for a while for a variety of reasons), the Gobert/Vucevic types wouldn't even make it to the NBA at all (like Nick Galis or Oscar Schmidt didn't make it) and the Embiid/Siakam types probably wouldn't even know that basketball is a sport.

b) from the simple fact that the top talent starts in the NBA earlier instead of waiting to finish college.

People are maybe forgetting but there was *a lot* of super crap players in the NBA back then. A lot, especially bigs.

Are they saying that Doncic wouldn't be as effective if you hand check him and then elbow him in the ribs and punch him in the face? Sure. But that has nothing to do with his talent and nobody wants to watch that crap anyway, we moved away from it for a reason: there are other sports that do that better.

I completely agree.

Again, no other sport denigrates the current era the way NBA legends do. We’ve seen rule changes for soccer and NFL football, but football/soccer fans reasonably believe that today’s era is better than ever. Or at the very least, it’s comparable to what existed in the 1990s.

Do you know how many times I hear casual fans saying, “I don’t watch today’s NBA anymore. Most of these guys are scrubs and aren’t as good as the players back then.”

It’s an unbelievably common trope, repeated by many people who weren’t even old enough to remember the 1990s.

And it’s because of bitter ex-players like Charles Barkley, Charles Oakley, Shaq and others. They constantly denigrate the current era, and this bleeds into the psychology of the fans who watch the sport.

I’ve heard guys like Aries Spears say the 2017 Golden State Warriors MAY avoid being swept by the 1996 Bulls. The Bulls couldn’t even sweep the Sonics, yet you mean to tell me they’d fare better against the 2017 Warriors? It’s absurd.

We need to call it out. As fans of the sport of basketball

Anything you said should be taking with a grain of salt after this

[xBulletproof]

Sure. Everyone looks good when they are allowed to travel and carry.

Sure, everyone looks good when you’re forced to defend your man 1-on-1.

The Illegal Defence rules in the 1990s favoured star players, allowing them to score more. You had to guard your man, and it was difficult for help defence to rotate. Today, you can trap and do hybrid zones on your star player, forcing the ball out of their hands.

Sooo you actually haven't watched any games. That's what this tells me despite your claims to the contrary. In the Finals no less the Suns doubled Jordan quite a lot in 1993, on the touch at times. It didn't matter.

[Heej]

When players aren't allowed to defend offensice players will all look like gods.

You’re repeating the same myths that these older-heads would repeat

Today’s NBA defences are better than the 1990s. Their defensive schemes were primitive, and you had guys like Jordan going iso while all of the help defence was on the weak side.

Again, watch some game tape. The tape doesn’t lie

It's unreal. I'm literally reading the same low IQ NPC takes over and over again in this thread lol. The NBA has screwed itself with the type of coverage they decided to go with and produced a generation of low IQ fans who regurgitate what old out of touch people on TV are saying.

[NO-KG-AI]

Uh, the league allowed a lot of Bs that uglied and muddied the game up in the 90's and it should have never been able to get to that point. Being more defenisvely skilled or sound might not be the reason the 90's defenses were harder to score against, but convincing yourself it's harder to score against defenses now while everyone goes for 40 a night is the most brain dead take ever. It's way easier to score right now, even if you're a mediocre or worse athlete. But it's much closer to how the game should be played than the 90's. I don't want the games back where dudes had a job just to grab, hold, and make it dirty and physical.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

There's two extremes being argued, and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

When people say the stars and teams of today would get killed by the stars and teams of the 80s and 90s, is that hyperbole? Yeah, it is. It's reasonable to suggest that scoring numbers might be inflated as a result of playing in a league that actively discourages physical defense, and it's hard not to notice fouls that are deemed flagrant now that wouldn't have been then, and I think these things would lead to some stars being somewhat less effective, but I don't think anyone would go from star to scrub or anything like that, like some suggest.

But by the same token, the people on the other side of the argument tend to go too far the other way, with the insistence that the league is better/more talented than it's ever been, and that the only way you could prefer a previous era is through the lens of nostalgia, etc etc. You see this all the time with those who argue for LeBron as the GOAT, when they disparage and disrespect an entire era of the NBA to strengthen their position. It's true that the Warriors were probably better than any time Jordan faced in the Finals, but it's one thing to say that and another to say that the league was garbage in the 90s. Some of the people on this side, in their zeal to counteract the other side, tear down previous eras in a way that is unpleasant to witness. You think the 90s were that bad, what would you do if you had watch the 60s NBA?

The truth must be somewhere in the middle.

[Fantastik_Goat]

If Kevin Durant was put in a Time Machine back to 1989, he could’ve easily scored 40 ppg. Dude is a 7 foot athletic wing scorer with unlimited range. They would’ve thought he was an alien.

Give the current guys their flowers. I hate seeing people overlook the sheer level of talent we’re witnessing today

I’m sure Dominique Wilkins head would have exploded at the sight of such an athlete.

[LAvision]

OP is a clown. Holy hot takes.

[MavsDirk41]

Agreed, I think it’s pretty obvious. Say that to anyone over the age of say 35-40 and they’ll be offended something fierce. Truth hurts though I guess.

Pretty sad that young people today have to bash players and the league from the past to prop up players and the league today.

[The High Cyde]

Agreed, I think it’s pretty obvious. Say that to anyone over the age of say 35-40 and they’ll be offended something fierce. Truth hurts though I guess.

Pretty sad that young people today have to bash players and the league from the past to prop up players and the league today.

Nope, no need for that. I can appreciate all eras for what they were

[MavsDirk41]

Agreed, I think it’s pretty obvious. Say that to anyone over the age of say 35-40 and they’ll be offended something fierce. Truth hurts though I guess.

Pretty sad that young people today have to bash players and the league from the past to prop up players and the league today.

Nope, no need for that. I can appreciate all eras for what they were

I think the Lakers Celtics rivalry of the 80s was probably the best basketball the nba has ever had because of the Magic/Bird rivalry, east vs west, showtime vs the non flashy celtics led by a stoic Bird.

[The High Cyde]

Pretty sad that young people today have to bash players and the league from the past to prop up players and the league today.

Nope, no need for that. I can appreciate all eras for what they were

I think the Lakers Celtics rivalry of the 80s was probably the best basketball the nba has ever had because of the Magic/Bird rivalry, east vs west, showtime vs the non flashy celtics led by a stoic Bird.

For sure, always makes for great entertainment when stacked rosters go against each other. Shame Magic had to step away from the game and Bird hurt his back and became a shell of himself, basketball fans were robbed of some great ball.

[DCasey91]

Pretty sad that young people today have to bash players and the league from the past to prop up players and the league today.

Nope, no need for that. I can appreciate all eras for what they were

I think the Lakers Celtics rivalry of the 80s was probably the best basketball the nba has ever had because of the Magic/Bird rivalry, east vs west, showtime vs the non flashy celtics led by a stoic Bird.

Ironically the best team for one year might not have come from either of them. 80’s teams was stacked at the top compared to the next decade.

[Jables]

Meeeh, I'm so sick of this argument in every single sport. Everyone is better because of medical science, inflated scores because of rulings and evoluuuushun. Okay, what now, now that we've agreed Michael Jordan is a third rate Jimmy Butler? It's all downhill from here once the bombs fly and every athlete in the world mutates into Fallout ghouls (besides LeBron and Messi who get taken away by the Enclave). Are you finally satisfied that you're watching the best product that could ever possibly exist at any point in human history?

[SNPA]

Look at the defences that Jordan was facing during the 1987 NBA season. It doesn’t compare to the defences today.

Again, if Mitch Richmond could average 26 during the “tougher” 1990s, would he do better than James Harden, Durant and Luka today? Of course not

I think Jordan is the GOAT. Absolutely love him. Dude was an inspiration and he dominated his era like no one else. But Jordan played in a weaker less talented league, and that’s no one’s fault. Athletes get better over time, and teams get better. There’s no way Jordan is defeating the 2017 Warriors. No way at all

You call out old heads for yelling at clouds but you are talking about Jordan facing weaker defenses and a weaker league and you started watching the nba in 2000?

Lol just stop please. Players are lighting up the scoreboard everynight but defenses are better? The league is no better today. Do you have proof that its better? And the 96 Bulls might have beat the 2017 Warriors

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. 1980s NBA players were weaker and less talented than the current NBA players.

Players lighting up the scoreboard does not correlate to the defences today being worse than in the 1980s. It could simply be that players are far more offensively skilled, leading to them going off for 40 points. Back then, you’d struggle to find even 1 player who shot more than 90% from the free throw line. Today we have over a dozen players who consistently shoot over 90% on their free throws. And this is a free throw, where defence is completely irrelevant. These new guys are really really talented

The eye test doesn’t lie.

The 2017 Warriors would have run the 1996 Bulls out of the gym. Multiple three-point threats on the floor at the same time, and they’d make mincemeat of those Bulls. The Bulls didn’t have the offensive firepower to keep up with three 30 ppg scorers on the court at the same time, as well as an elite defence and a decent amount of role players.

I stuck with it and made it to this post at the end of page 3. I tried. I can go no further. Rodman, Pippen and Jordan would be mincemeat against Steph, Clay and Dray? I’m out.

Good luck.

(FYI - Mitch Richmond was a baller.)

[old skool]

I think both sides of this discussion have legitimate points to make.

Surely the overall talent is greater today. Every team has a number of 3-point specialists, for example, that obviously did not exist before the 3-point shot was part of the game. Players are more versatile. The perimeter shooting big man is a recent phenomena that literally developed during Brook Lopez's career.

But there are some differences between eras that support what Barkley and other older generation players have said.

Today's NBA is full of teenagers. Years ago, rookies were virtually never in the league until age 22. Today's NBA rosters are full of boys with immature bodies and undeveloped skills. They skipped the four years of college that generations used to learn solid fundamentals. Michael Jordan was not just an incredible athlete, but he was also fundamentally sound after coaching from Dean Smith at UNC.

Today's game is much more physical. In 1977 SI's NBA-preview edition featured an article on "The Enforcers". Players on every team that would beat the crap out of opposing players, mostly during routine play. In the 1960's and 1970's fights and bench clearing brawls were not uncommon. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar once took exception to the physical play of an opposing center (Kent Benson) and punched him so hard that he broke Benson's jaw and Kareem's hand as well. No suspensions, just a fine.

The game used to be more physically demanding. There were no rest games for players. Players spent more time on the court and less time resting on the bench. Fewer and shorter time outs meant less in-game resting. Players had to endure 5 games in 6 nights.

In-season practices were a bigger part of the game. Not only were practices grueling, but they also helped players improve their individual and team skills. The counter-point is that today's players spend more time on the court during the off-season.

It is almost impossible to weigh "better" across different eras, which does not denigrate the modern NBA which is full of incredible talent doing things unimaginable in decades past. Nor does it contradict protestations of aged veterans who sneer at today's players for being soft.

[prophet_of_rage]

This NBA season has the deepest level of talent we’ve ever seen. We have players from Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Steph, Ja, Kyrie, and many other talents. Even the role players are incredibly versatile and skilled.

Yet every single day, I see constant comments from older heads like Charles Oakley saying that Giannis wouldn’t make an NBA roster in the 1990s. Or that Steph would get bullied by the likes of Isiah Thomas

I’m all for respecting the NBA older-heads, but no other sport does this. NFL and soccer fans aren’t constantly listening to legends denigrating the current game. They barely even do analysis anymore.

I see guys like SHAQ who didn’t even know who Rui Hachimura was, despite his literal job being paid to talk about basketball. Yet this same guy will denigrate the current talent and say they’re “soft.”

It’s honestly killing the product. Fans believe what these legends say, and their nostalgia leads them to believe that NBA superstars today would struggle in the 1990s. That’s false. The opposite is true. Yet I’m seeing 21 year olds who falsely believe that they missed out on the golden era of basketball.

Again, no other sport does this. Basketball is beset by this cancer of nostalgia bias and Jordan worship, and it needs to stop if this sport is to thrive.

Perhaps if these guys played more instead of load managed themselves into oblivion and treated the regular season like preseason nobody would take the older guys seriously.

Teams load manage not players.

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[prophet_of_rage]

The NBA game wasn’t as violent as they claim it was. There were lots of ticky-tack fouls called, and hand-checking was never a serious defensive tactic.

Watch full NBA games from that era. The game tape doesn’t lie.

It sucks compared to now skillwise.

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[prophet_of_rage]

When players aren't allowed to defend offensice players will all look like gods.

You’re repeating the same myths that these older-heads would repeat

Today’s NBA defences are better than the 1990s. Their defensive schemes were primitive, and you had guys like Jordan going iso while all of the help defence was on the weak side.

Again, watch some game tape. The tape doesn’t lie

What are you smoking? Pass some over.

He isn't lying. The defence had to be within one area of their offence. So if Luc Longley was outside the 3 point line then Alonzo Mourning had to be above the free throw line unless he committed to a double team on the ball.

It was so bad they had to create an illegal offence rule that prevented you from having four players on one side of the court.

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[prophet_of_rage]

I mean, use whatever excuses you want, but that's the point the older guys have and it works for them. Back in the day, if you watched a game between two potential MVP candidates, there's a 99% chance they'd actually play against each other. Now it's a coin flip chance at best.

Do I think Giannis would be a bench player in the 90s? No. but if the root of this is the old guys are saying the younger generation is soft, well, the older guys played a lot and didn't rest that much. The younger guys don't play as much. If these guys are really the super athletes that I've heard they are, fatigue shouldn't be much of an issue. Their superior athleticism should make up for it.

Players suffer through injury as a result of the style of play that requires constant movement. That isn’t an “excuse.” That’s a valid point

Back then, players stood around and watched the scorer go iso. Today, you have constant screen action and closing out on shooters. That’ll inevitably lead to more wear and tear, more injuries, and more fatigue.

It's absolutely an excuse. Plus the idea that screens and movement didn't exist in the 90s is absurd. Players fought thru screens and moved around then. And again, if these guys have the benefit of 20 years of sports medicine and are just that much physically superior, shouldn't that make up for the increase in movement?

But even if you believe this is valid, the cold reality is that it leads to tons more rest for players today, so the older generation can call them soft and the fans today can turn on a game and see star players out and believe that criticism.

Teams make these guys rest because they are long term investments.

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[prophet_of_rage]

Athletically they're better, but not with respect to skill.

Playing defense, playing out of the post, and consistently hitting mid-range jumpers appear to be a lost tradition.

They can all do it. The game doesn't need those things any more.

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