What made Rondo’s assists “empty”?

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What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#1 » by No-more-rings » Sat Feb 4, 2023 12:31 am

It’s obvious by watching that Rondo was a pretty gifted passer, probably one of the better passers ever in a pure sense. However, i’ve heard the argument often that his assists were empty anyway despite him getting 10-12 in his best seasons.

Is Rondo’s poor shooting and scoring what made them less impactful, or did it have more to do with holding the ball for too long?

Or, are those arguments wrong, and his playmaking did help a team like Boston?
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#2 » by uberhikari » Sat Feb 4, 2023 12:48 am

Here's an old Ben Taylor argument about this from Nylon Calculus where he talks about the "Rondo assist".
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#3 » by OhayoKD » Sat Feb 4, 2023 2:05 am

No-more-rings wrote:It’s obvious by watching that Rondo was a pretty gifted passer, probably one of the better passers ever in a pure sense. However, i’ve heard the argument often that his assists were empty anyway despite him getting 10-12 in his best seasons.

Is Rondo’s poor shooting and scoring what made them less impactful, or did it have more to do with holding the ball for too long?

Or, are those arguments wrong, and his playmaking did help a team like Boston?

A pass doesn't really have much value beyond
A. helping teammates shoot more effecient shots
B. Transporting the ball across the court

"Assists" are really just a crude measure of numero uno, and there "value" is mainly determined by
A. # of defenders affected/taken out of the play
B. Quality of the shot being created
C. Difficulty of what's being done(can a replacement level player do it?)

Stereotypically(and perhaps to an extent in reality), a rondo assist doesn't take defenders out of the play, and is a pass anyone can complete
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#4 » by kendogg » Sat Feb 4, 2023 4:38 am

No longer called the Rondo Assist now its called the Draymond Assist
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#5 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Feb 4, 2023 6:33 am

I suppose the stereotypical image of Rondo's assist would be

He does a basic chest pass to Ray Allen who is not particularly open and Ray Allen jacks up a shot and makes it. It wasn't really a shot that was created by Rondo. Not necessarily a bad play but not a good one either - it's just a shot that Ray Allen when he happned to have gotten the ball recently from Rondo.


Rondo's playmaking likely did help out the Celtics. It's just that his APG overstates his impact I reckon. Yes, his lack of shooting and scoring in general has a lot to do with his ineffectiveness.

His lack of scoring likely affected his high APG as well. When ever there was an easy lay up like off of a steal he would simply opt to pass instead of lay it in. It doesn't make a difference in those scenarios whether he scores or not so it's not an empty play but it does boost your APG.

If it's between padding his points or assist he rather pad his assist. Most players prefer points.
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#6 » by dygaction » Sat Feb 4, 2023 6:40 am

Rondo was a scrape goat looking back as the Big Three had too much of expectations. If they won 1 more playoff game in 10 or 1 more game in 12, his evaluation would be totally different. Playoff Rondo was a thing. He was very good in 10 and did quite some carrying job in 12 playoff run.
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#7 » by dygaction » Sat Feb 4, 2023 6:43 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:I suppose the stereotypical image of Rondo's assist would be

He does a basic chest pass to Ray Allen who is not particularly open and Ray Allen jacks up a shot and makes it. It wasn't really a shot that was created by Rondo. Not necessarily a bad play but not a good one either - it's just a shot that Ray Allen when he happned to have gotten the ball recently from Rondo.


Rondo's playmaking likely did help out the Celtics. It's just that his APG overstates his impact I reckon. Yes, his lack of shooting and scoring in general has a lot to do with his ineffectiveness.

His lack of scoring likely affected his high APG as well. When ever there was an easy lay up like off of a steal he would simply opt to pass instead of lay it in. It doesn't make a difference in those scenarios whether he scores or not so it's not an empty play but it does boost your APG.

If it's between padding his points or assist he rather pad his assist. Most players prefer points.


If he had limited scoring ability or knew his limitation in scoring efficiency, why is passing considered padding instead of doing the right thing? The other way would be Westbrooks or AI forcing inefficent shots
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#8 » by Gooner » Sat Feb 4, 2023 8:05 am

Nothing. Rondo was one of the best passers I've ever seen.
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#9 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Feb 4, 2023 8:08 am

dygaction wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:I suppose the stereotypical image of Rondo's assist would be

He does a basic chest pass to Ray Allen who is not particularly open and Ray Allen jacks up a shot and makes it. It wasn't really a shot that was created by Rondo. Not necessarily a bad play but not a good one either - it's just a shot that Ray Allen when he happned to have gotten the ball recently from Rondo.


Rondo's playmaking likely did help out the Celtics. It's just that his APG overstates his impact I reckon. Yes, his lack of shooting and scoring in general has a lot to do with his ineffectiveness.

His lack of scoring likely affected his high APG as well. When ever there was an easy lay up like off of a steal he would simply opt to pass instead of lay it in. It doesn't make a difference in those scenarios whether he scores or not so it's not an empty play but it does boost your APG.

If it's between padding his points or assist he rather pad his assist. Most players prefer points.


If he had limited scoring ability or knew his limitation in scoring efficiency, why is passing considered padding instead of doing the right thing? The other way would be Westbrooks or AI forcing inefficent shots


I said that when he has a free bucket he will just give the bucket to his teammate instead of himself. Has nothing to do with his scoring ability.
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#10 » by dygaction » Sat Feb 4, 2023 8:22 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
dygaction wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:I suppose the stereotypical image of Rondo's assist would be

He does a basic chest pass to Ray Allen who is not particularly open and Ray Allen jacks up a shot and makes it. It wasn't really a shot that was created by Rondo. Not necessarily a bad play but not a good one either - it's just a shot that Ray Allen when he happned to have gotten the ball recently from Rondo.


Rondo's playmaking likely did help out the Celtics. It's just that his APG overstates his impact I reckon. Yes, his lack of shooting and scoring in general has a lot to do with his ineffectiveness.

His lack of scoring likely affected his high APG as well. When ever there was an easy lay up like off of a steal he would simply opt to pass instead of lay it in. It doesn't make a difference in those scenarios whether he scores or not so it's not an empty play but it does boost your APG.

If it's between padding his points or assist he rather pad his assist. Most players prefer points.


If he had limited scoring ability or knew his limitation in scoring efficiency, why is passing considered padding instead of doing the right thing? The other way would be Westbrooks or AI forcing inefficent shots


I said that when he has a free bucket he will just give the bucket to his teammate instead of himself. Has nothing to do with his scoring ability.


Ok, stat pad assist if you don't like him, or great leader to reward running mates if you like him. Not a problem unless those often led to TOs. Teammates would certainly like that. Magic during showtime, LeBron/Wade ally oops...
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#11 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Feb 4, 2023 8:31 am

dygaction wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
dygaction wrote:
If he had limited scoring ability or knew his limitation in scoring efficiency, why is passing considered padding instead of doing the right thing? The other way would be Westbrooks or AI forcing inefficent shots


I said that when he has a free bucket he will just give the bucket to his teammate instead of himself. Has nothing to do with his scoring ability.


Ok, stat pad assist if you don't like him, or great leader to reward running mates if you like him. Not a problem unless those often led to TOs. Teammates would certainly like that. Magic during showtime, LeBron/Wade ally oops...


Oh...kay.....? You really need to work on your reading comprehension.


In the same post

"It doesn't make a difference in those scenarios whether he scores or not so it's not an empty play but it does boost your APG."


What is wrong with you dude? You're getting all aggressive about discussing Rondo's style of play and jumping to ridiculous conclusions.

I'm guessing based on the scapegoat thing you said for zero reason this is some KG ****.
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#12 » by dygaction » Sat Feb 4, 2023 8:39 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
dygaction wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
I said that when he has a free bucket he will just give the bucket to his teammate instead of himself. Has nothing to do with his scoring ability.


Ok, stat pad assist if you don't like him, or great leader to reward running mates if you like him. Not a problem unless those often led to TOs. Teammates would certainly like that. Magic during showtime, LeBron/Wade ally oops...


Oh...kay.....? You really need to work on your reading comprehension.


In the same post

"It doesn't make a difference in those scenarios whether he scores or not so it's not an empty play but it does boost your APG."


What is wrong with you dude? You're getting all aggressive about discussing Rondo's style of play and jumping to ridiculous conclusions.


Easy, when I use "you" it really not meaning literally you. I am saying the whole "empty" thing is a nothing burger. Rondo is different from Ben Simmons, he can score but may just enjoy giving teammates rewards as a pg. Do people accuse of Magic padding by giving up a layup but ditching to a running Worthy, or LeBron to Wade? Not like what accused of Jazz book keeping artificially count more assists for Stockton.
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Sat Feb 4, 2023 8:41 am

They are not empty, they just have different value that others assists. I hate when people exaggarate the concept and start arguing that Rondo had no impact and was useless. He was a very good player in his brief prime.
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#14 » by Jaivl » Sat Feb 4, 2023 9:20 am

He had his fair share of "skim milk" assists. Similarly to when rating defense, it's easy to take apg at face value and say "yes, this is as good of a passer as Steve Nash".

1) Generously inflated by Boston scorekeepers until his rep took over
2) Mid value assists compared to the premier passers in the league (see numbers below), high ratio of long midrange ("pass to the big 3")
3) Utter lack of scoring pressure
4) Generally great execution
5) Good vision but I would say mid IQ, he prioritized a specific set of passes which often weren't the correct choice (open layups to kickouts, etc), tied to point 3

Prime Rondo (11-13): 15.7 ast per 100 pos -- 6.0 at rim, 3.3 from 3, 5.0 from long midrange

Steve Nash (10-12): 16.9 ast per 100 pos -- 7.5 at rim, 4.1 from 3, 2.9 from long midrange
Ricard "GOAT" Rubio (11-13): 12.7 ast per 100 pos -- 6.1 at rim, 3.1 from 3, 2.3 from long midrange
Chris Paul (11-13): 14.0 ast per 100 pos -- 6.1 at rim, 3.8 from 3, 2.8 from long midrange
LeBron James (11-13): 9.1 ast per 100 pos -- 3.3 at rim, 2.9 from 3, 2.1 from long midrange

The Official Mike Conley "average good point guard" comparison:
Mike Conley (11-13): 9.7 ast per 100 pos -- 3.8 at rim, 1.2 from 3, 3.0 from long midrange
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#15 » by OhayoKD » Sat Feb 4, 2023 9:43 am

70sFan wrote:They are not empty, they just have different value that others assists. I hate when people exaggarate the concept and start arguing that Rondo had no impact and was useless. He was a very good player in his brief prime.

not gonna comment on rondo specifically, but assists can be outright worthless. Heck, in rare cases, they can even be bad(ex: there's a play in the 2017 finals where instead of immediately passing to a wide=open dude under the basket, Durant dribbles all the way to the basket, basically hands it off and makes the guy's shot hoarder).
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#16 » by Bad Gatorade » Sat Feb 4, 2023 11:20 am

A big factor behind it is that Rondo, whilst being a genuinely talented passer, also didn't prove to have a large impact on winning margins.

It might not be as immediately obvious, but from 08-12 (whilst the big 3 was intact), Rondo played at least 95% of his minutes with at least 1 of the big 3, 82% with at least 2 and 51% with all 3. As a result, a lot of his raw on/off numbers overlap with that of the team. However, regression based studies such as RAPM often pin his impact at this point as roughly neutral, if not slightly negative. As a corollary to this, Rondo missed quite a lot of games in Boston in some of his extra large assist years (2012-2014), so there's likely to be a pretty good sample to work with here.

Across these 3 seasons, the Celtics had an ORTG of 101.7 in 121 games Rondo played and 103.3 in the 108 games Rondo missed.

Now, Kidd/Rubio aren't exactly Kevin Durant at scoring, but they've got a history of having a reasonably strong impact on team offence, fairly good ORAPM scores etc. Rondo doesn't. Kidd/Rubio are excellent passers, and this at least showed up via impact stats. Rondo doesn't.

In other words, Rondo's assists (in the regular season anyway; he was somewhat less anaemic in the playoffs, albeit still a tad overrated IMO) were seen as empty, because utilising Rondo as a playmaking hub wasn't really producing any marginal positive results on Boston. The team (understandably) got worse on offence as the Big 3 aged and began employing Rondo more heavily, and then didn't skip a beat whenever he got injured. Had Rondo's assists been of higher calibre, I hypothesise that there'd be a greater on/off signal, despite his scoring.

Full disclaimer - I do think that Rondo (on both ends) becomes more valuable in the playoffs due to increased aggression, although I still view him quite differently from the "Rondo is the best PG in the NBA" murmurs that were frequently circulating around 10-12 years ago (feel free to Google if you don't believe me)!
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#17 » by sca » Sat Feb 4, 2023 12:53 pm

Jaivl wrote:
Spoiler:
He had his fair share of "skim milk" assists. Similarly to when rating defense, it's easy to take apg at face value and say "yes, this is as good of a passer as Steve Nash".

1) Generously inflated by Boston scorekeepers until his rep took over
2) Mid value assists compared to the premier passers in the league (see numbers below), high ratio of long midrange ("pass to the big 3")
3) Utter lack of scoring pressure
4) Generally great execution
5) Good vision but I would say mid IQ, he prioritized a specific set of passes which often weren't the correct choice (open layups to kickouts, etc), tied to point 3

Prime Rondo (11-13): 15.7 ast per 100 pos -- 6.0 at rim, 3.3 from 3, 5.0 from long midrange

Steve Nash (10-12): 16.9 ast per 100 pos -- 7.5 at rim, 4.1 from 3, 2.9 from long midrange
Ricard "GOAT" Rubio (11-13): 12.7 ast per 100 pos -- 6.1 at rim, 3.1 from 3, 2.3 from long midrange
Chris Paul (11-13): 14.0 ast per 100 pos -- 6.1 at rim, 3.8 from 3, 2.8 from long midrange
LeBron James (11-13): 9.1 ast per 100 pos -- 3.3 at rim, 2.9 from 3, 2.1 from long midrange

The Official Mike Conley "average good point guard" comparison:
Mike Conley (11-13): 9.7 ast per 100 pos -- 3.8 at rim, 1.2 from 3, 3.0 from long midrange

A big part of it has to do with the fact that those Celtics were heavily perimeter-oriented teams carried by three former superstars whose main scoring weapon has always been jump shots. So I don't think stat carries as much value as you think it does.
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#18 » by penbeast0 » Sat Feb 4, 2023 1:12 pm

dygaction wrote:
Easy, when I use "you" it really not meaning literally you. I am saying the whole "empty" thing is a nothing burger. Rondo is different from Ben Simmons, he can score but may just enjoy giving teammates rewards as a pg. Do people accuse of Magic padding by giving up a layup but ditching to a running Worthy, or LeBron to Wade? Not like what accused of Jazz book keeping artificially count more assists for Stockton.


Interestingly, when they posted home/away assists, Stockton's splits were pretty normal. The guy with exaggerated home assist totals was Magic. Now this doesn't answer the question of how many of Stockton's assists were "empty" but it does imply that the accusation is weak.
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#19 » by trickshot » Sat Feb 4, 2023 1:12 pm

Am I the only one who never heard anyone call them empty. Just a little surprised the premise was even taken at face value.
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Re: What made Rondo’s assists “empty”? 

Post#20 » by Statlanta » Sat Feb 4, 2023 1:23 pm

He didn't pass people open. He passed to people who had to get open(more apparent with Garnett and Pierce than Ray Allen). I'd also consider time of possession as Rondo is more of a heliocentric guy than a guy who moves in a free-flowing offense as evidence in his time in Dallas.

The next level of this is not Draymond Green but is Ben Simmons who just pass blindly to people without leveraging a scoring threat or thinking about the offense putting his teammates in awkward or even worse positions than the offense started with before the pass.

One of the few ways of adding negative value as a playmaker/offensive player without being a black hole like Dwight Howard or Moses Malone.
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