Where does Elton Brand's 2006 season among PFs post merger

[migya]

Elton Brand is not only one of the most underrated PFs alltime but also players of the 2000s. He was very good in his time with the Clippers. His 2006 season was his best with these numbers:

RS - 52.7.fg%, 77.5.ft%, 10reb, 2.6ast, 1stl, 2.5blk, 2.2tos, 24.7pts, 116OR, 100DR, 26.5PER, 58ts%, 9.3ows, 5.5dws, 14.8ws, .229ws/48, 6.7bpm, 6.8vorp,

PS - 55.1fg%, 75ft%, 10.3reb, 4ast, 0.9stl, 2.6blk, 2.4tos, 25.4pts, 122OR, 106DR, 26.4PER, 59ts%, 1.8ows, 0.7dws, 2.4ws, .227ws/48, 7.2bpm, 1.2vorp,




Where does this season rank among PFs, post merger?

[Jaivl]

Duncan
KG
Giannis
Dirk
Davis
Barkley
Malone

are locks, for obvious reasons.

Of the "chasing group", so to speak, I'd take McHale and Draymond clearly over him, and I kind prefer Griffin, Bobby Jones and Pau Gasol as well. Think I would take him slightly ahead of Kemp, so that would make him the #13 best PF since the merger, with a case for top 10. #10 to #14 is my range.

[70sFan]

Duncan
KG
Giannis
Dirk
Davis
Barkley
Malone

are locks, for obvious reasons.

Of the "chasing group", so to speak, I'd take McHale and Draymond clearly over him, and I kind prefer Griffin, Bobby Jones and Pau Gasol as well. Think I would take him slightly ahead of Kemp, so that would make him the #13 best PF since the merger, with a case for top 10. #10 to #14 is my range.

Same, with the exception in my preference of Brand over Griffin. I also rank Duncan at centers list, so overall I got him at #11. Haven't thought about other candidates though.

[homecourtloss]

Duncan
KG
Giannis
Dirk
Davis
Barkley
Malone

are locks, for obvious reasons.

Of the "chasing group", so to speak, I'd take McHale and Draymond clearly over him, and I kind prefer Griffin, Bobby Jones and Pau Gasol as well. Think I would take him slightly ahead of Kemp, so that would make him the #13 best PF since the merger, with a case for top 10. #10 to #14 is my range.

Same, with the exception in my preference of Brand over Griffin. I also rank Duncan at centers list, so overall I got him at #11. Haven't thought about other candidates though.

I would take Rasheed Wallace’s peak over Brand’s though not sure how people see him, i.e., PF or C. If people see Artest as a PF, then I’d take his peak over Brand’s as well.

[70sFan]

Duncan
KG
Giannis
Dirk
Davis
Barkley
Malone

are locks, for obvious reasons.

Of the "chasing group", so to speak, I'd take McHale and Draymond clearly over him, and I kind prefer Griffin, Bobby Jones and Pau Gasol as well. Think I would take him slightly ahead of Kemp, so that would make him the #13 best PF since the merger, with a case for top 10. #10 to #14 is my range.

Same, with the exception in my preference of Brand over Griffin. I also rank Duncan at centers list, so overall I got him at #11. Haven't thought about other candidates though.

I would take Rasheed Wallace’s peak over Brand’s though not sure how people see him, i.e., PF or C. If people see Artest as a PF, then I’d take his peak over Brand’s as well.

Rasheed is a good call, I might consider him over Brand, but it's a close comparison. I would rank Artest at SF and even if not, I prefer Brand a little more.

[dygaction]

Duncan
KG
Giannis
Dirk
Davis
Barkley
Malone

are locks, for obvious reasons.

Of the "chasing group", so to speak, I'd take McHale and Draymond clearly over him, and I kind prefer Griffin, Bobby Jones and Pau Gasol as well. Think I would take him slightly ahead of Kemp, so that would make him the #13 best PF since the merger, with a case for top 10. #10 to #14 is my range.

Same, with the exception in my preference of Brand over Griffin. I also rank Duncan at centers list, so overall I got him at #11. Haven't thought about other candidates though.

I would take Rasheed Wallace’s peak over Brand’s though not sure how people see him, i.e., PF or C. If people see Artest as a PF, then I’d take his peak over Brand’s as well.

Webber and Aldridge should also be in the mix, Bosh an HM

[70sFan]

Same, with the exception in my preference of Brand over Griffin. I also rank Duncan at centers list, so overall I got him at #11. Haven't thought about other candidates though.

I would take Rasheed Wallace’s peak over Brand’s though not sure how people see him, i.e., PF or C. If people see Artest as a PF, then I’d take his peak over Brand’s as well.

Webber and Aldridge should also be in the mix, Bosh an HM

I have them clearly behind.

[dygaction]

I would take Rasheed Wallace’s peak over Brand’s though not sure how people see him, i.e., PF or C. If people see Artest as a PF, then I’d take his peak over Brand’s as well.

Webber and Aldridge should also be in the mix, Bosh an HM

I have them clearly behind.

They don't have regular and playoffs peak aligned at the same year.
Kevin Love 2014 should also be mentioned

[Jaivl]

Webber and Aldridge should also be in the mix, Bosh an HM

I have them clearly behind.

They don't have regular and playoffs peak aligned at the same year.
Kevin Love 2014 should also be mentioned

That's a good shout, forgot about him.

[migya]

Duncan
KG
Giannis
Dirk
Davis
Barkley
Malone

are locks, for obvious reasons.

Of the "chasing group", so to speak, I'd take McHale and Draymond clearly over him, and I kind prefer Griffin, Bobby Jones and Pau Gasol as well. Think I would take him slightly ahead of Kemp, so that would make him the #13 best PF since the merger, with a case for top 10. #10 to #14 is my range.

The first guys are ahead of him but I think McHale 87 wasn't better, his playoffs were bad. Don't think Draymond 2016 is better either. His playoffs were also worse than Brand's.

[migya]

Would replacing Nowitzki with Brand in 06 have won Dallas the championship?

Interesting thought as Nowitzki didn't play well, as he didn't score well, and Brand does more than score. Brand's defense would've been important against Wade's attack of the basket.

[70sFan]

Duncan
KG
Giannis
Dirk
Davis
Barkley
Malone

are locks, for obvious reasons.

Of the "chasing group", so to speak, I'd take McHale and Draymond clearly over him, and I kind prefer Griffin, Bobby Jones and Pau Gasol as well. Think I would take him slightly ahead of Kemp, so that would make him the #13 best PF since the merger, with a case for top 10. #10 to #14 is my range.

The first guys are ahead of him but I think McHale 87 wasn't better, his playoffs were bad. Don't think Draymond 2016 is better either. His playoffs were also worse than Brand's.

Please explain me how 1987 McHale playoffs were "bad".

[70sFan]

Would replacing Nowitzki with Brand in 06 have won Dallas the championship?

Interesting thought as Nowitzki didn't play well, as he didn't score well, and Brand does more than score. Brand's defense would've been important against Wade's attack of the basket.

They wouldn't have made the finals in the first place.

[migya]

Duncan
KG
Giannis
Dirk
Davis
Barkley
Malone

are locks, for obvious reasons.

Of the "chasing group", so to speak, I'd take McHale and Draymond clearly over him, and I kind prefer Griffin, Bobby Jones and Pau Gasol as well. Think I would take him slightly ahead of Kemp, so that would make him the #13 best PF since the merger, with a case for top 10. #10 to #14 is my range.

The first guys are ahead of him but I think McHale 87 wasn't better, his playoffs were bad. Don't think Draymond 2016 is better either. His playoffs were also worse than Brand's.

Please explain me how 1987 McHale playoffs were "bad".

Compared to Brand it was and he was much worse than the RS.

If Karl Malone is said to have been rather bad in the playoffs, which isn't true, with far better scoring and rebounding, as well as better defense mostly, also with better metrics, then McHale's PS in 87 was bad.

[migya]

Would replacing Nowitzki with Brand in 06 have won Dallas the championship?

Interesting thought as Nowitzki didn't play well, as he didn't score well, and Brand does more than score. Brand's defense would've been important against Wade's attack of the basket.

They wouldn't have made the finals in the first place.

The way Brand played in the playoffs that season they probably would have.

[70sFan]

The first guys are ahead of him but I think McHale 87 wasn't better, his playoffs were bad. Don't think Draymond 2016 is better either. His playoffs were also worse than Brand's.

Please explain me how 1987 McHale playoffs were "bad".

Compared to Brand it was and he was much worse than the RS.

If Karl Malone is said to have been rather bad in the playoffs, which isn't true, with far better scoring and rebounding, as well as better defense mostly, also with better metrics, then McHale's PS in 87 was bad.

McHale averaged 21 ppg on 63 TS% in the playoffs while playing injured. I have no idea what you're talking about.

McHale was consistently elite postseason scorer when healthy and he was a better defender than Brand (or Malone for that matter).

[70sFan]

Would replacing Nowitzki with Brand in 06 have won Dallas the championship?

Interesting thought as Nowitzki didn't play well, as he didn't score well, and Brand does more than score. Brand's defense would've been important against Wade's attack of the basket.

They wouldn't have made the finals in the first place.

The way Brand played in the playoffs that season they probably would have.

Brand abused undersized and injured Suns frontcourt, but he didn't look that good against Nuggets. If you call 1987 McHale scoring numbers bad, check out Brand numbers in the first round.

I can't see Brand doing better or even as good as Dirk against San Antonio. They wouldn't have beaten Spurs and would have lost in the 2nd round most likely.

[Owly]

Please explain me how 1987 McHale playoffs were "bad".

Compared to Brand it was and he was much worse than the RS.

If Karl Malone is said to have been rather bad in the playoffs, which isn't true, with far better scoring and rebounding, as well as better defense mostly, also with better metrics, then McHale's PS in 87 was bad.

McHale averaged 21 ppg on 63 TS% in the playoffs while playing injured. I have no idea what you're talking about.

McHale was consistently elite postseason scorer when healthy and he was a better defender than Brand (or Malone for that matter).

Mmmm

I wouldn't say "bad".
And you've highlighted the injury. If one is inclined it can be spun as a positive ... if you're pitting the years against one another it probably isn't (as a player he is worse, less mobile, misses a game).

Not bad ... but versus RS ... TS% down, usage down, assist% down, turnover% up, blocks down and at the margins steals down. Cumulatively these lead to McHale at 17.9 PER, .120 WS/48, 1.7 BPM. Not "bad" in absolute terms. Weak by his own standards (RS that year, or RS career, or playoff career of just overall) and by the standards of this broad discussion and weak next to Brand's.

In his weaker series looking at his game by game BPMs Brand is superior to full playoff McHale by that metric (average of his game BPMs is 2.72 and his clear weakest game is his lowest minutes one, so proper weighting would push it up). And that would be ignoring the series where the average of the games was 10.15714286.

There is of course place for further detail and context (competition etc). And playoffs being very big in most people's criteria can create a luck problem in peaks where you put a lot of weight on a very small sample (and how one reads injuries can create differences) and RS and PS peaks may not align. That being said whilst I would have tried to avoid "bad", on the above (plus Brand's RS case, with production and a pretty solid RAPM) I think Brand has a good case over McHale.

[Owly]

Would replacing Nowitzki with Brand in 06 have won Dallas the championship?

Interesting thought as Nowitzki didn't play well, as he didn't score well, and Brand does more than score. Brand's defense would've been important against Wade's attack of the basket.

They wouldn't have made the finals in the first place.

The way Brand played in the playoffs that season they probably would have.

I don't know but suspect it will be controversial to assert this ...

on Nowitzki didn't play well: when? on what basis/by what measure? (and per above if a limited window, does Brand get them there)
on Dallas generally: are you projecting them as two seed still?
on Brand: are you assuming Brand sustains his playoff performance (if not numbers) in a new context and over a larger sample? How are you seeing the fit?

It's an interesting question. My biggest problems would be the assertion Nowitzki didn't play well (assume this must mean some narrow window) and possible basing extrapolations/conclusions of any strength on a 2 round playoff sample.

[trex_8063]

I'd put the following post-merger PF peaks definitely ahead of him:

Duncan
KG
Giannis
Dirk
Barkley
Malone
AD

I'd maybe put McHale ahead too.

I think that's about it for me. '14 Kevin Love is a good mention, though (I'd put him in the "maybe, but probably not" category; close though).

I'm lower on peak Draymond than most here, simply because I think he has next to zero floor-raising capacity. Yeah, he was an integral lynchpin piece on a team already boasting a lot of talent and GOAT-level shooting in particular. But how often can a player expect to find himself in that circumstance? 15% of the time? Less?

Put him on a team with putrid talent, and he's able to lift that cast to.......still putrid. All things being equal, a player can expect to find himself in that type of circumstance more or less just as often as the former. He's a peculiar specimen in that his impact seems to increase with the amount of talent surrounding him (some superstars are just the opposite: their impact gets more and more diluted the more talent you put around them).