What made Rondo’s assists “empty”?

[Heej]

Just the sense I always got watching him was a special and gifted passer but a detrimental game manager. He was too slow, methodical, and controlling with the offense. Some of those assists came because he refused to shoot which made it less impressive over time.

But let's not forget he always turned up in the playoffs and every postseason he made people question whether he was actually the best point guard in the league over Chris Paul. His game was more built for playoff basketball anyway. He's actually underrated in that sense

[tone wone]

Just the sense I always got watching him was a special and gifted passer but a detrimental game manager. He was too slow, methodical, and controlling with the offense. Some of those assists came because he refused to shoot which made it less impressive over time.

But let's not forget he always turned up in the playoffs and every postseason he made people question whether he was actually the best point guard in the league over Chris Paul. His game was more built for playoff basketball anyway. He's actually underrated in that sense

Was it really?

The difference between "Playoff Rondo" & "regular season Rondo" was him pushing the ball in transition more and driving a bit more in the halfcourt. He saved this for the playoffs because he physically couldnt hold up attacking like that over 82gms. Its great that he had it in him to turn up his aggressiveness but that doesnt make his game built for playoff basketball; that makes him a guy with a very narrow skillset & durability issues, fortunante to play on teams good enough to allow him to coast in the regular season.

[1993Playoffs]

Good question. In the playoffs I always thought he improved even his shooting later In his career.

[cupcakesnake]

Here's an old Ben Taylor argument about this from Nylon Calculus where he talks about the "Rondo assist".

I think the answer to this question is in the first paragraph

passing to a good isolation scorer, or hitting teammates freed by a screen.

Rondo also threw tons of crazy/difficult/creative passes. He was a demonic little genius.
But some percentage of his big assist totals were more about Boston's offensive style. Delivering the ball to Allen/Pierce coming off a screen isn't something that makes you a passing genius. Giving the ball to Pierce or KG for an iso/post-up can be difficult depending on the defense, but isn't a high-level of difficulty pass (side note: it does seem like entry passes are a lost art nowadays?)

If you were to watch tons of footage of all a players assists, you'd quickly be able to separate the Magic/Nash/Jokic/Bird level passers from the Rondos. Rondo is still one of the best passers ever though, but averaging over 11apg makes it seem like he's better than he was.

[Heej]

Just the sense I always got watching him was a special and gifted passer but a detrimental game manager. He was too slow, methodical, and controlling with the offense. Some of those assists came because he refused to shoot which made it less impressive over time.

But let's not forget he always turned up in the playoffs and every postseason he made people question whether he was actually the best point guard in the league over Chris Paul. His game was more built for playoff basketball anyway. He's actually underrated in that sense

Was it really?

The difference between "Playoff Rondo" & "regular season Rondo" was him pushing the ball in transition more and driving a bit more in the halfcourt. He saved this for the playoffs because he physically couldnt hold up attacking like that over 82gms. Its great that he had it in him to turn up his aggressiveness but that doesnt make his game built for playoff basketball; that makes him a guy with a very narrow skillset & durability issues, fortunante to play on teams good enough to allow him to coast in the regular season.

Yeah it is imo because he's the type of dude to devour film and hone in on player tendencies. Whatever it is, whether it was Giving him time to lock in on one opponent, increased aggressiveness, or a likely combination of both; his game always picked up in the playoffs and changed basketball discourse regarding the top PGs every off-season. Then he went back to falling off in the regular season

[kendogg]

I haven't actually seen an accurate description in this entire thread. Sure Rondo was capable of slashing to the basket and creating shots for teammates. But a lot of his assists came from him at the top of the key watching his teammates use their gravity in combination with cuts and screens to create a shot opportunity and Rondo just stands there reading the defense and waiting for the opportunity to be created by his teammates. This sort of pass still takes court awareness in knowing when and where to pass it, but Rondo himself was not using his gravity to create shots for his teammates. Thus in that way it is an empty assist.

Draymond is the king of this kind of assist today. He himself has virtually no gravity or scoring threat, but he can read the situation and take advantage of the cuts and screens of his teammates. A lot of Dray's assists come from standing at the top of the key or in the high post, or making a very basic lateral movement to load up one side of the floor.

[cupcakesnake]

The point isn't that Rondo isn't a good passer. The point is that assists don't measure passing ability, and are overly affected by offensive role.

A good example I like is Andre Drummond tripling his assists per game because Stan Van Gundy put him in dribble hand off action for the first time in his career. He didn't become a better passer, he was just given a different role that involved more assist opportunity (getting the ball in the high post and then handing it to Reggie Jackson/Tobias Harris/Blake Griffin. DHO became more popular in the NBA a couple years after this and a lot of centers started averaging 2-3apg instead of 0-1.

[Dr Positivity]

It was suspected he was hunting assist stats, on some some plays it looked like instead of going for the easy score he tried to pass it to a harder one. Not as much in the best big 3 years like 08-12, but by the time of like Kings Rondo at which point he had stopped giving a **** on defense, it would make sense he was also a stat hunter. With that said I still don't think they were that empty, he was a great passer, just not a shooter. A player like Calderon's style of play is a better candidate for "empty" assists to me, as he ran a lot of pick and pop for Bosh long 2 at the top of the key, which is low difficulty like a QB handing it off to a RB. Now with that in mind, this only worked because Calderon's threat level as a great shooter, so in a sense his skillset did help his stats.

[VanWest82]

There were layers to it. I'll always believe part of it was he saw Nash getting credit (and getting paid) as he was leading the league in assists, and so Rondo made it his priority to lead the league in assists thinking he'd get similar rewards; except, Nash wasn't just fishing for assists - he was collapsing the defense and making the right play whether it led to an assist or not. We'll never know for sure, but I bet Rondo had one of the lowest assist to hockey assist ratios of any high assist guy ever.

[Heej]

I haven't actually seen an accurate description in this entire thread. Sure Rondo was capable of slashing to the basket and creating shots for teammates. But a lot of his assists came from him at the top of the key watching his teammates use their gravity in combination with cuts and screens to create a shot opportunity and Rondo just stands there reading the defense and waiting for the opportunity to be created by his teammates. This sort of pass still takes court awareness in knowing when and where to pass it, but Rondo himself was not using his gravity to create shots for his teammates. Thus in that way it is an empty assist.

Draymond is the king of this kind of assist today. He himself has virtually no gravity or scoring threat, but he can read the situation and take advantage of the cuts and screens of his teammates. A lot of Dray's assists come from standing at the top of the key or in the high post, or making a very basic lateral movement to load up one side of the floor.

This has literally been pointed out early on in this thread and is common knowledge he had juiced assist numbers making low difficulty passes to guys like Ray Allen coming off screens

[HeartBreakKid]

Just the sense I always got watching him was a special and gifted passer but a detrimental game manager. He was too slow, methodical, and controlling with the offense. Some of those assists came because he refused to shoot which made it less impressive over time.

But let's not forget he always turned up in the playoffs and every postseason he made people question whether he was actually the best point guard in the league over Chris Paul. His game was more built for playoff basketball anyway. He's actually underrated in that sense

Was it really?

The difference between "Playoff Rondo" & "regular season Rondo" was him pushing the ball in transition more and driving a bit more in the halfcourt. He saved this for the playoffs because he physically couldnt hold up attacking like that over 82gms. Its great that he had it in him to turn up his aggressiveness but that doesnt make his game built for playoff basketball; that makes him a guy with a very narrow skillset & durability issues, fortunante to play on teams good enough to allow him to coast in the regular season.

Agreed. Rondo is good/better in the playoffs but it's odd to say he is "built" for it.

How is a point guard who is\scared to take a wide open jumper from the free throw line built for playoff basketball? Every guard in the NBA except Ben Simmons can make that type of shot in their sleep. It would be one thing if Rondo had a dominant game at the rim or an elaborate post game or something but he doesn't.

If you put most of Rondo's attributes on paper he would seem more like an RS player than a PS player. Rondo just happened to go against conventional wisdom and plays better in the post season.

[Heej]

Just the sense I always got watching him was a special and gifted passer but a detrimental game manager. He was too slow, methodical, and controlling with the offense. Some of those assists came because he refused to shoot which made it less impressive over time.

But let's not forget he always turned up in the playoffs and every postseason he made people question whether he was actually the best point guard in the league over Chris Paul. His game was more built for playoff basketball anyway. He's actually underrated in that sense

Was it really?

The difference between "Playoff Rondo" & "regular season Rondo" was him pushing the ball in transition more and driving a bit more in the halfcourt. He saved this for the playoffs because he physically couldnt hold up attacking like that over 82gms. Its great that he had it in him to turn up his aggressiveness but that doesnt make his game built for playoff basketball; that makes him a guy with a very narrow skillset & durability issues, fortunante to play on teams good enough to allow him to coast in the regular season.

Agreed. Rondo is good/better in the playoffs but it's odd to say he is "built" for it.

How is a point guard who is\scared to take a wide open jumper from the free throw line built for playoff basketball? Every guard in the NBA except Ben Simmons can make that type of shot in their sleep. It would be one thing if Rondo had a dominant game at the rim or an elaborate post game or something but he doesn't.

If you put most of Rondo's attributes on paper he would seem more like an RS player than a PS player. Rondo just happened to go against conventional wisdom and plays better in the post season.

Seems like we have a semwntic difference here lol. I'm simply pointing out that he played better in the playoffs and trying to balance some of the valid criticisms

[OhayoKD]

I haven't actually seen an accurate description in this entire thread. Sure Rondo was capable of slashing to the basket and creating shots for teammates. But a lot of his assists came from him at the top of the key watching his teammates use their gravity in combination with cuts and screens to create a shot opportunity and Rondo just stands there reading the defense and waiting for the opportunity to be created by his teammates. This sort of pass still takes court awareness in knowing when and where to pass it, but Rondo himself was not using his gravity to create shots for his teammates. Thus in that way it is an empty assist.

Draymond is the king of this kind of assist today. He himself has virtually no gravity or scoring threat, but he can read the situation and take advantage of the cuts and screens of his teammates. A lot of Dray's assists come from standing at the top of the key or in the high post, or making a very basic lateral movement to load up one side of the floor.

This has literally been pointed out early on in this thread and is common knowledge he had juiced assist numbers making low difficulty passes to guys like Ray Allen coming off screens

Man just didn't read any of the posts on the first page I guess

[Lost92Bricks]

It was his terrible scoring that did it. He was one of the best passers I've seen. His assists/passing were fine.