Deni Avdija

[NatP4]

That was directed towards Prime, Nate.

But yes, Butler isn’t looking too good thus far. Thought he was a lock to be a good one.

And also, I agree with your theories about Wagner/college scoring production. He’s the exception not the rule. I expected more of a low usage role player that tops out at 16/17/18 PPG, with limited shot creation ability. I was also wrong about Wagner. He’s incredible. If I would’ve been right about Suggs, the magic would be a legit contending team right now.

[NatP4]

And if Bamba could avoid jumping off the bench and punching people..

[deneem4]

You put your best players on the floor at all times….
Is deni better then the Denver wizards….no not all of them, but they have experience and years of playing together
Is deni better than kispert
Yes
So let deni understand being the 4th or even 5th best player on the next to Beal/kuzma/KP/gafford

[nate33]

You put your best players on the floor at all times….

No you don't. They would get tired and become ineffective.

You try to have your best players play the most minutes, but that doesn't mean they have to be on the floor together at all times. You're 5-man lineups should be complementary, even if they're not the best 5 guys on the roster. If that means Kispert starts over Deni because the starters need shooting and the bench needs playmaking, I'm fine with it; as long as Deni plays more minutes than Kispert.

[deneem4]

You put your best players on the floor at all times….

No you don't. They would get tired and become ineffective.

You try to have your best players play the most minutes, but that doesn't mean they have to be on the floor together at all times. You're 5-man lineups should be complementary, even if they're not the best 5 guys on the roster. If that means Kispert starts over Deni because the starters need shooting and the bench needs playmaking, I'm fine with it; as long as Deni plays more minutes than Kispert.

The more we play KP the more we have to pay em

[nate33]

You put your best players on the floor at all times….

No you don't. They would get tired and become ineffective.

You try to have your best players play the most minutes, but that doesn't mean they have to be on the floor together at all times. You're 5-man lineups should be complementary, even if they're not the best 5 guys on the roster. If that means Kispert starts over Deni because the starters need shooting and the bench needs playmaking, I'm fine with it; as long as Deni plays more minutes than Kispert.

The more we play KP the more we have to pay em

You know you are losing the debate when you argue that we shouldn't play a player because he is too good and will likely earn more money by playing more.

[prime1time]

The game tonight shows what Avdija can bring to the table. It's silly to say that Avdija does not have to make 3's. The Nets were literally leaving him wide open and forcing him to shoot. He attempted 9 3's and made 4 of them. As far as the aggressiving driving goes, people need to be realistic. A year ago, the man was afraid to even attack the hoop. Now we are comparing him to elite scorers like Dwayne Wade and Jimmy Butler. With regards to his aggressive driving, this game again shows a good barometer. Avdija aggressively attacked the hoop, but to be honest he was mostly bailed out by the fact that the Nets insisted on fouling him. If you want to judge a players ability with the ball, look at what happens at the end of games when the score is tonight.

Other than a wide open 3 in the corner that he made, Avdija (if I recall correctly) had two turnovers with the ball in his hand and mostly avoided creating offense. The offense ran through Porzingis until he fouled out. Then through Morris. Finally, we diagrammed a play for Kispert off of the timeout. It's not a knock on Avdija to say that he needs to shoot better. Good shooting will by him time to improve other parts of his game. Lastly, this game shows how the good defense is just a myth. Yes Avdija did a great job generating steals off ball, but the way people talk about his defense on this board you'd think he'd be the second coming of Scottie Pippen or Kawhi Leonard.

Cam Thomas absolutely torched us. We had no answer for him. And to show just how little the Nets thought of Avdija's defense, they actually sought out Avdija for the switch on the last play of the game. Avdija is actually fornuate in the sense that for the previous 49 games his shot attempts from 3 were so low. At 2.1 3's attempted a game and 49 games, that comes out to about 103 3's attempted before tonight. Tonight alone Avdija shot 9 3's. If he can keep up this shooting, his percentage will rise in no time.

For people who believe that we should put the ball in Avdija's hands and just let him create, let me point out that we just lost to a starless Nets team. Porzingis played amazing and Avdija knocked down 3's. A team where Deni Avdija is just allowed to create is on the fast tract to being one of the 5 worst teams in the league. And with the lottery pick they'd have, they'd be trying to draft a player who can create (ergo taking the role from Avdija).

Lastly, when Beal, Kuzma and Porzingis are healthy Avdija's role will be to stretch the floor and make smart plays. His opportunity to create off the dribble will be significantly cut. So celebrating aspects of his game that do not pertain/relate to his likely role on this team is shortsighted and only serves to create a distorted picture of his future on this team. It's like a patient that takes a placebo drug in a randomized trial. You think you're doing something, but in reality, it really has no effect on your overall longterm outcome.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

The game tonight shows what Avdija can bring to the table. It's silly to say that Avdija does not have to make 3's. The Nets were literally leaving him wide open and forcing him to shoot. He attempted 9 3's and made 4 of them. As far as the aggressiving driving goes, people need to be realistic. A year ago, the man was afraid to even attack the hoop. Now we are comparing him to elite scorers like Dwayne Wade and Jimmy Butler. With regards to his aggressive driving, this game again shows a good barometer. Avdija aggressively attacked the hoop, but to be honest he was mostly bailed out by the fact that the Nets insisted on fouling him. If you want to judge a players ability with the ball, look at what happens at the end of games when the score is tonight.

Other than a wide open 3 in the corner that he made, Avdija (if I recall correctly) had two turnovers with the ball in his hand and mostly avoided creating offense. The offense ran through Porzingis until he fouled out. Then through Morris. Finally, we diagrammed a play for Kispert off of the timeout. It's not a knock on Avdija to say that he needs to shoot better. Good shooting will by him time to improve other parts of his game. Lastly, this game shows how the good defense is just a myth. Yes Avdija did a great job generating steals off ball, but the way people talk about his defense on this board you'd think he'd be the second coming of Scottie Pippen or Kawhi Leonard.

Cam Thomas absolutely torched us. We had no answer for him. And to show just how little the Nets thought of Avdija's defense, they actually sought out Avdija for the switch on the last play of the game. Avdija is actually fornuate in the sense that for the previous 49 games his shot attempts from 3 were so low. At 2.1 3's attempted a game and 49 games, that comes out to about 103 3's attempted before tonight. Tonight alone Avdija shot 9 3's. If he can keep up this shooting, his percentage will rise in no time.

For people who believe that we should put the ball in Avdija's hands and just let him create, let me point out that we just lost to a starless Nets team. Porzingis played amazing and Avdija knocked down 3's. A team where Deni Avdija is just allowed to create is on the fast tract to being one of the 5 worst teams in the league. And with the lottery pick they'd have, they'd be trying to draft a player who can create (ergo taking the role from Avdija).

Lastly, when Beal, Kuzma and Porzingis are healthy Avdija's role will be to stretch the floor and make smart plays. His opportunity to create off the dribble will be significantly cut. So celebrating aspects of his game that do not pertain/relate to his likely role on this team is shortsighted and only serves to create a distorted picture of his future on this team. It's like a patient that takes a placebo drug in a randomized trial. You think you're doing something, but in reality, it really has no effect on your overall longterm outcome.

This is such a lazy post despite being five paragraphs long. Odd game to continue to disparage the young guy despite the fact that he had the second highest +/- on the team (highest among those who played significant minutes; Kuzma only played 11), 4 steals, 4 of 9 from three, got to the line 12 times (albeit it wasn't a good night from the stripe), and finished as the teams second leading scorer. But his threes are just luck, all of his defensive contributions wiped out by the fact that the Nets got him on a late game switch which most obviously mean that he sucks on defense. Fourth quarter collapse, his fault.

Seems like your unhappiness with the franchise necessitates you be bitter about anything attached to it. Looking forward to your cherry picking after every good game from Avdija, because there's going to be plenty more. Hoping for a post after every game from you to scrutinize and embellish every mistake he makes, and minimizing any of his contributions.

[Wizraeli]

The game tonight shows what Avdija can bring to the table. It's silly to say that Avdija does not have to make 3's. The Nets were literally leaving him wide open and forcing him to shoot. He attempted 9 3's and made 4 of them. As far as the aggressiving driving goes, people need to be realistic. A year ago, the man was afraid to even attack the hoop. Now we are comparing him to elite scorers like Dwayne Wade and Jimmy Butler. With regards to his aggressive driving, this game again shows a good barometer. Avdija aggressively attacked the hoop, but to be honest he was mostly bailed out by the fact that the Nets insisted on fouling him. If you want to judge a players ability with the ball, look at what happens at the end of games when the score is tonight.

Other than a wide open 3 in the corner that he made, Avdija (if I recall correctly) had two turnovers with the ball in his hand and mostly avoided creating offense. The offense ran through Porzingis until he fouled out. Then through Morris. Finally, we diagrammed a play for Kispert off of the timeout. It's not a knock on Avdija to say that he needs to shoot better. Good shooting will by him time to improve other parts of his game. Lastly, this game shows how the good defense is just a myth. Yes Avdija did a great job generating steals off ball, but the way people talk about his defense on this board you'd think he'd be the second coming of Scottie Pippen or Kawhi Leonard.

Cam Thomas absolutely torched us. We had no answer for him. And to show just how little the Nets thought of Avdija's defense, they actually sought out Avdija for the switch on the last play of the game. Avdija is actually fornuate in the sense that for the previous 49 games his shot attempts from 3 were so low. At 2.1 3's attempted a game and 49 games, that comes out to about 103 3's attempted before tonight. Tonight alone Avdija shot 9 3's. If he can keep up this shooting, his percentage will rise in no time.

For people who believe that we should put the ball in Avdija's hands and just let him create, let me point out that we just lost to a starless Nets team. Porzingis played amazing and Avdija knocked down 3's. A team where Deni Avdija is just allowed to create is on the fast tract to being one of the 5 worst teams in the league. And with the lottery pick they'd have, they'd be trying to draft a player who can create (ergo taking the role from Avdija).

Lastly, when Beal, Kuzma and Porzingis are healthy Avdija's role will be to stretch the floor and make smart plays. His opportunity to create off the dribble will be significantly cut. So celebrating aspects of his game that do not pertain/relate to his likely role on this team is shortsighted and only serves to create a distorted picture of his future on this team. It's like a patient that takes a placebo drug in a randomized trial. You think you're doing something, but in reality, it really has no effect on your overall longterm outcome.

[DCZards]

With regards to his aggressive driving, this game again shows a good barometer. Avdija aggressively attacked the hoop, but to be honest he was mostly bailed out by the fact that the Nets insisted on fouling him.

What does this even mean? The Nets “insisted” on fouling Deni. You can’t even bring yourself to admit that Deni drew those fouls. Instead, the Nets “insisted” on fouling him.

That’s weak, bro.

[AFM]

PIF please check your reefer stash, I think prime got his hands on it

[doclinkin]

Prime bought into the Deni vs Rui narrative early and picked a side. Given that Rui has been swapped out he's got a bit of bitterness to work out. Deni becomes his focus. Look, fans dig scoring. Defense isn't sexy. If a player looks the part, he must be good. If he scores easy, then forget the rest. A scorer off the bench is a key role. A defender, screener, and facilitator isn't. And confirmation bias rules over objectivity any day.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

With regards to his aggressive driving, this game again shows a good barometer. Avdija aggressively attacked the hoop, but to be honest he was mostly bailed out by the fact that the Nets insisted on fouling him.

What does this even mean? The Nets “insisted” on fouling Deni. You can’t even bring yourself to admit that Deni drew those fouls. Instead, the Nets “insisted” on fouling him.

That’s weak, bro.

I chuckled when I read that one.

[deneem4]

No you don't. They would get tired and become ineffective.

You try to have your best players play the most minutes, but that doesn't mean they have to be on the floor together at all times. You're 5-man lineups should be complementary, even if they're not the best 5 guys on the roster. If that means Kispert starts over Deni because the starters need shooting and the bench needs playmaking, I'm fine with it; as long as Deni plays more minutes than Kispert.

The more we play KP the more we have to pay em

You know you are losing the debate when you argue that we shouldn't play a player because he is too good and will likely earn more money by playing more.

That was the rui jab
2nd the staters shouldnt need anything more, that’s why they’re the starters…
I’ll rather have deni taking the 3s that kispert would get as a starter playing next to Beal kuzma and KP

It actually does matter who deni gets his minutes with, not just if he plays a lot of minutes, he still young and should be put in the best position to grow, 5man line ups should be complementary deni is the best compliment to a Beal kuzma KP lineup…

[deneem4]

Prime bought into the Deni vs Rui narrative early and picked a side. Given that Rui has been swapped out he's got a bit of bitterness to work out. Deni becomes his focus. Look, fans dig scoring. Defense isn't sexy. If a player looks the part, he must be good. If he scores easy, then forget the rest. A scorer off the bench is a key role. A defender, screener, and facilitator isn't. And confirmation bias rules over objectivity any day.

Both are key roles, coming from someone with rui bitterness, both should’ve been starters
But making rui a bench leader instead of a 5th starter was negative towards his growth, don’t want to do the same thing with deni

[jangles86]

29% from 3 is telling Avdijas story. Unless he can improve this he’s going to be nothing more then a role player.

Another pretty disappointing first round pick by this franchise.
Stings looking at Halliburton picked a few picks after Avdija.

[lastemp3ror]

Barring any big trade, the only way I see this team being good to great falls directly on Deni's shoulders. I say this because he is the only player who has considerable upside on this roster. We basically know what everyone else brings to the table at this point. So when I see big games from Deni, I get excited because it is very possible that his game is evolving as we speak and he will be much better in the future.

[prime1time]

With regards to his aggressive driving, this game again shows a good barometer. Avdija aggressively attacked the hoop, but to be honest he was mostly bailed out by the fact that the Nets insisted on fouling him.

What does this even mean? The Nets “insisted” on fouling Deni. You can’t even bring yourself to admit that Deni drew those fouls. Instead, the Nets “insisted” on fouling him.

That’s weak, bro.

I have to call it like I see it.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=BasketballHighlights

I'm just stating the obvious. Avdija needs to make 3's because teams are going to leave him wide open. On some of his made 3's there wasn't even a defender within arms reach. 10 seconds, he's wide open. There are people in this thread who are arguing that he doesn't need to make that shot. And that not making the shot is equal to winning basketball. I disagree. 19 seconds, same thing. Nets started out the game basically treating Avdija as a self-check from the 3-point line. I really don't know how anyone can argue that an Avdija that can't knock down wide open 3's can be a major part of our future.

But to the main reason why we are here. Avdija's ability to draw FTs. I'm going to preface my conversation by saying this - I analyze basketball through skills. If you're a pure boxscore guy, what I'm going to write going forward is going to sound like strange music from a foreign land. First 2 FTs, just a solid aggressive move by Avdija on the fastbreak. If I'm the Nets coach, I'm angry that we fouled because I would prefer to see Avdija make a contested layup. 39 seconds shows what will happen if Avdija cannot knockdown 3's. Again, no one is even close to him. Next time down the court, same exact thing. He's wide open, this time he knocks it down. But let's put it in context, these are 3's that you'd be shooting in a shootaround.

1:33, slight close out. But no one is even close to him. People often talk about Steph Curry's gravity. Deni Avdija has like a negative gravity. When he's out around the 3-point line, he repels defenders. 1:40 shows how Deni Avdija can be a succesful player in the NBA. Knock down 3's, force teams to close out to you and then attack closeouts.

1:58 next drive. Straight line drive going away from the screener. Obviously this is just my opinion, but Avdija had nothing on this drive and the Nets bailed him out by fouling. Sometimes in the NBA you'd be rewarded for just being aggressive. But I draw a distinction between skillfully drawing fouls and just playing aggressive. When your offensive skill allows you to draw fouls, it's something that can be relied upon consistently. When your just aggressive (bull in the china shop) sometimes you're going to win some, sometimes you're going to lose some. But anyone who's trying to planout strategy for an organization would be silly to look at this and say, hey Avdija drives can be a major component of our offensive attacks going forward.

2:21 - great play by Avdija to get the tip in, but we should point out. The Nets had Seth Curry, one of their worst defenders, on him. The fact that Avdija has been getting guarded by opposing teams worst defenders has gone mostly ignored in this thread. But it should be discussed by Avdija supporters who want to crown him and his aggressive style of play as a major part of our team going forward.

2:26, Avdija drives 1 on 4 and the Nets just foul him. To be honest, at this point it seems like the Nets are fouling him on purpose (seeing how he was 7/12 from the free throw line. I'll give him credit for grabbing the rebound and pushing the ball but he still hasn't shown one advanced offensive skill with regards to drawing fouls.

2:49 is the best play of the game by Avdija. Behind the back pass to Kispert. This is when Avdija is at his best. Knocking down 3's forcing teams to guard him and then creating for others off of that. Focusing on aggressive drives is just bizarre. 3:20 another straightline drive where he's aggressive. Straightline drives simply do not work against good defenses in big moments. 4:26 Avdija's second best play of the game. Great pass to Porzingis.

5:33 - the first skill based foul Avdija drew. Uses his body to nudge the defender out of the way to get an easy look at the rim. 6:18, great move by Avdija. Feints left and the defender gets off the balance. I would point out again that this time Watanabe is defending him. Arguably the Nets worst defender on the floor. Nevertheless, he draws the defense and he kicks it out to Porzingis for the wide open 3.

6:35 shows the limitation of just being aggressive. Even if he didn't get blocked, that would have been a very tough finish. 6:56 Avdija just loses the ball. 7:06 Avijda wide open for 3 and no one even close. He knocks it down.

[prime1time]

With regards to his aggressive driving, this game again shows a good barometer. Avdija aggressively attacked the hoop, but to be honest he was mostly bailed out by the fact that the Nets insisted on fouling him.

What does this even mean? The Nets “insisted” on fouling Deni. You can’t even bring yourself to admit that Deni drew those fouls. Instead, the Nets “insisted” on fouling him.

That’s weak, bro.

I have to call it like I see it.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=BasketballHighlights

I'm just stating the obvious. Avdija needs to make 3's because teams are going to leave him wide open. On some of his made 3's there wasn't even a defender within arms reach. 10 seconds, he's wide open. There are people in this thread who are arguing that he doesn't need to make that shot. And that not making the shot is equal to winning basketball. I disagree. 19 seconds, same thing. Nets started out the game basically treating Avdija as a self-check from the 3-point line. I really don't know how anyone can argue that an Avdija that can't knock down wide open 3's can be a major part of our future.

But to the main reason why we are here. Avdija's ability to draw FTs. I'm going to preface my conversation by saying this - I analyze basketball through skills. If you're a pure boxscore guy, what I'm going to write going forward is going to sound like strange music from a foreign land. First 2 FTs, just a solid aggressive move by Avdija on the fastbreak. If I'm the Nets coach, I'm angry that we fouled because I would prefer to see Avdija make a contested layup. 39 seconds shows what will happen if Avdija cannot knockdown 3's. Again, no one is even close to him. Next time down the court, same exact thing. He's wide open, this time he knocks it down. But let's put it in context, these are 3's that you'd be shooting in a shootaround.

1:33, slight close out. But no one is even close to him. People often talk about Steph Curry's gravity. Deni Avdija has like a negative gravity. When he's out around the 3-point line, he repels defenders. 1:40 shows how Deni Avdija can be a succesful player in the NBA. Knock down 3's, force teams to close out to you and then attack closeouts.

1:58 next drive. Straight line drive going away from the screener. Obviously this is just my opinion, but Avdija had nothing on this drive and the Nets bailed him out by fouling. Sometimes in the NBA you'd be rewarded for just being aggressive. But I draw a distinction between skillfully drawing fouls and just playing aggressive. When your offensive skill allows you to draw fouls, it's something that can be relied upon consistently. When your just aggressive (bull in the china shop) sometimes you're going to win some, sometimes you're going to lose some. But anyone who's trying to planout strategy for an organization would be silly to look at this and say, hey Avdija drives can be a major component of our offensive attacks going forward.

2:21 - great play by Avdija to get the tip in, but we should point out. The Nets had Seth Curry, one of their worst defenders, on him. The fact that Avdija has been getting guarded by opposing teams worst defenders has gone mostly ignored in this thread. But it should be discussed by Avdija supporters who want to crown him and his aggressive style of play as a major part of our team going forward.

2:26, Avdija drives 1 on 4 and the Nets just foul him. To be honest, at this point it seems like the Nets are fouling him on purpose (seeing how he was 7/12 from the free throw line. I'll give him credit for grabbing the rebound and pushing the ball but he still hasn't shown one advanced offensive skill with regards to drawing fouls.

2:49 is the best play of the game by Avdija. Behind the back pass to Kispert. This is when Avdija is at his best. Knocking down 3's forcing teams to guard him and then creating for others off of that. Focusing on aggressive drives is just bizarre. 3:20 another straightline drive where he's aggressive. Straightline drives simply do not work against good defenses in big moments. 4:26 Avdija's second best play of the game. Great pass to Porzingis.

5:33 - the first skill based foul Avdija drew. Uses his body to nudge the defender out of the way to get an easy look at the rim. 6:18, great move by Avdija. Feints left and the defender gets off the balance. I would point out again that this time Watanabe is defending him. Arguably the Nets worst defender on the floor. Nevertheless, he draws the defense and he kicks it out to Porzingis for the wide open 3.

6:35 shows the limitation of just being aggressive. Even if he didn't get blocked, that would have been a very tough finish. 6:56 Avdija just loses the ball. 7:06 Avijda wide open for 3 and no one even close. He knocks it down.

I get that there are people on this board who are moreso Avdija fans than Wizards fans, but as to how anyone can look at that clip and say this player will develop into Dwayne Wade or Jimmy Butler or Manu Ginobli is beyond me. His offensive skills with the ball in his hands are too basic for an NBA team to make him a top 3 offensive option and expect to be able to compete. The 3's he made were wide open - i.e. the kind of 3's you get when the other team says "we are willing to live with Deni Avdija beating us from 3." The drives were Avidja just being aggressive but he simply doesn't have the skill to consistently draw fouls game in and game out. Luckily for him, he goes up against the opposing team's worst defenders.

The simple facts are this, 3 years into his career, Avdija is still a massive project. His offesnse is way worse than initially advertised and has the potential to derail his young but promising career. Since the Hachimura trade and injuries to our some of our core players- Avdija has gone from being timid to being aggressive. Of course, being aggressive is better than being timid. But the reality is that this dichotomy ignores what's actually important - genuinely improving your offensive skill.

Until I see a significantly more skilled Avdija with regards to driving to the rim, I don't care. There will be games like this one where things go well and then there will be games where things don't go well. Of course this is all in the context of teams leaving wide open at the 3-point line to stop other players. Regardless of what the posters on this board think, the reality is that there will be significant institutional pressure on Avdija to drastically increase his 3-point shooting. To focus on his on ball offensive skill while his 3-point shooting remains morribound is akin to giving the middle finger to the organization. To put it another way, it won't happen. Thus Avdija's path is a simple one.

1. Improve 3-point shooting so that you can space the floor for stars
2. Improve ball handling and overall offensive skill
3. Become a genuine 3rd option on a championship-caliber team

You can call me a Rui fan or say that I'm anti-Avdija, the reality is that I simply understand that one-sided conversations are not beneficial and try to present points that counteract the dominant view in order for the conversation to have the full range of opinions. This board of full Rui haters and Deni supporters. That's not my fault, but it does lead to very flat and one-dimensional conversations. A much better way forward for the conversation is to focus on Avdija's growth (something I said repeatedly in the Rui thread) instead of saying he has "arrived". Avdija has a long long way to go.

Read on Twitter

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[dckingsfan]

...Avdija has a long long way to go...

Yup. A long shot to be a starting caliber SF (and third option) on a championship team. Rui has no chance at doing that, IMO.

And you look at the rest of the young players on the team and none of them will get to the level of third option on a championship team either.

Betting against #soWizards is always a good bet