The curious case of Thybulle

[Andrew Toney]

He should be playing more. Perhaps even starting over Tucker. He's already proven to shoot well enough when on the floor with Harden.

I suppose the reason not to is that Tucker is a better rebounder and we're already bad there.

Yeah, no way Matisse can top Tucker’s output.

Tucker averaging 26 mins, 3.2 points and 4 rebounds. He looks like he is running in quicksand, has very little vertical. But oh yeah, those “intangibles.”

It’s criminal that PJ is a starter. Thanks Morey.

[Andrew Toney]

He should be playing more. Perhaps even starting over Tucker. He's already proven to shoot well enough when on the floor with Harden.

I suppose the reason not to is that Tucker is a better rebounder and we're already bad there.

Yeah, no way Matisse can top Tucker’s output.

Tucker averaging 26 mins, 3.2 points and 4 rebounds. He looks like he is running in quicksand, has very little vertical. But oh yeah, those “intangibles.”

It’s criminal that PJ is a starter. Thanks Morey.

[HardenGoat]

Read on Twitter

How Doc can’t use him is nuts. Those stats match what I see on the court. In the playoffs just stick him on the teams best guards along with Melton in a switch scheme and you shut them down. I don’t buy the you can’t pay him. You do a sign and trade if that’s the case. We should be all in anyways next year from a wallet standpoint.

[strotorious]

After the original post I played around with some on/off numbers to see if it was true or just noise and was able to confirm both points of the article. Thybulle deserves more minutes and Rivers is using him wrong. As some previous posts pointed out Harden is the key. Intuitively it makes sense, since the main benefit of someone like Harden is getting easy shots for teammates, and the numbers support it. Off and def ratings since the Harden trade:

Harden on, Thybulle off - 121 to 116 in 1495 minutes
Harden on, Thybulle on - 121 to 106 in 571 minutes

As long as Harden is on the court, adding Thybulle makes the defense significantly better with no harm to the offense. It's a smaller sample, but still worth noting that Harden and Thybulle have been a very effective combo even without Embiid, 122 to 107 in 139 minutes. So the real problem is that the majority of Thybulle's minutes happen when Harden is on the bench.

[youngcrev]

After the original post I played around with some on/off numbers to see if it was true or just noise and was able to confirm both points of the article. Thybulle deserves more minutes and Rivers is using him wrong. As some previous posts pointed out Harden is the key. Intuitively it makes sense, since the main benefit of someone like Harden is getting easy shots for teammates, and the numbers support it. Off and def ratings since the Harden trade:

Harden on, Thybulle off - 121 to 116 in 1495 minutes
Harden on, Thybulle on - 121 to 106 in 571 minutes

As long as Harden is on the court, adding Thybulle makes the defense significantly better with no harm to the offense. It's a smaller sample, but still worth noting that Harden and Thybulle have been a very effective combo even without Embiid, 122 to 107 in 139 minutes. So the real problem is that the majority of Thybulle's minutes happen when Harden is on the bench.

That hasn't been the case this season or in the playoffs last year.

I think you'd get more regular season impact out of him with the starters rather than PJ, but they just don't trust it for when the games really matter. I'd love for them to lean on him more there if for no other reason than saving PJ the wear and tear.

In terms of lineup usage, I think he fits really well with the all bench unit that Doc has been rolling with, which desperately needs his impact defensively.

[DCasey91]

After the original post I played around with some on/off numbers to see if it was true or just noise and was able to confirm both points of the article. Thybulle deserves more minutes and Rivers is using him wrong. As some previous posts pointed out Harden is the key. Intuitively it makes sense, since the main benefit of someone like Harden is getting easy shots for teammates, and the numbers support it. Off and def ratings since the Harden trade:

Harden on, Thybulle off - 121 to 116 in 1495 minutes
Harden on, Thybulle on - 121 to 106 in 571 minutes

As long as Harden is on the court, adding Thybulle makes the defense significantly better with no harm to the offense. It's a smaller sample, but still worth noting that Harden and Thybulle have been a very effective combo even without Embiid, 122 to 107 in 139 minutes. So the real problem is that the majority of Thybulle's minutes happen when Harden is on the bench.

Who knew that players that compliment another player and vice versa have positive results lol.

Harden turns Thybulle into a 36-38% 3ball shooter and now it’s a 5vs5 offence

Thybulle goes full Spider-Man mode on defence while Harden goes out for his smoko break on the perimeter (still a beast post defender on slower guys).

Win/Win

I can’t wait until Doc is gone

[DCasey91]

After the original post I played around with some on/off numbers to see if it was true or just noise and was able to confirm both points of the article. Thybulle deserves more minutes and Rivers is using him wrong. As some previous posts pointed out Harden is the key. Intuitively it makes sense, since the main benefit of someone like Harden is getting easy shots for teammates, and the numbers support it. Off and def ratings since the Harden trade:

Harden on, Thybulle off - 121 to 116 in 1495 minutes
Harden on, Thybulle on - 121 to 106 in 571 minutes

As long as Harden is on the court, adding Thybulle makes the defense significantly better with no harm to the offense. It's a smaller sample, but still worth noting that Harden and Thybulle have been a very effective combo even without Embiid, 122 to 107 in 139 minutes. So the real problem is that the majority of Thybulle's minutes happen when Harden is on the bench.

That hasn't been the case this season or in the playoffs last year.

I think you'd get more regular season impact out of him with the starters rather than PJ, but they just don't trust it for when the games really matter. I'd love for them to lean on him more there if for no other reason than saving PJ the wear and tear.

In terms of lineup usage, I think he fits really well with the all bench unit that Doc has been rolling with, which desperately needs his impact defensively.

Youngcrev it’s quite the opposite in fact.

Bench units are bad at self creating offence, Thybulle just maxes that out. That’s why the results have been poor.

Harden turns Thybulle into Battier like which is an awesome compliment to Harden and to the on court 5.

No secret of mine that Maxey is an ideal 6th man because it kills two birds with one stone.

I’d hazard to guess review the netrtg with Harden + Thybulle through this year. I believe it will be the same in the playoffs

It’s not so much Thybulle or Harden, it’s the very seamless combo of both.

[youngcrev]

After the original post I played around with some on/off numbers to see if it was true or just noise and was able to confirm both points of the article. Thybulle deserves more minutes and Rivers is using him wrong. As some previous posts pointed out Harden is the key. Intuitively it makes sense, since the main benefit of someone like Harden is getting easy shots for teammates, and the numbers support it. Off and def ratings since the Harden trade:

Harden on, Thybulle off - 121 to 116 in 1495 minutes
Harden on, Thybulle on - 121 to 106 in 571 minutes

As long as Harden is on the court, adding Thybulle makes the defense significantly better with no harm to the offense. It's a smaller sample, but still worth noting that Harden and Thybulle have been a very effective combo even without Embiid, 122 to 107 in 139 minutes. So the real problem is that the majority of Thybulle's minutes happen when Harden is on the bench.

That hasn't been the case this season or in the playoffs last year.

I think you'd get more regular season impact out of him with the starters rather than PJ, but they just don't trust it for when the games really matter. I'd love for them to lean on him more there if for no other reason than saving PJ the wear and tear.

In terms of lineup usage, I think he fits really well with the all bench unit that Doc has been rolling with, which desperately needs his impact defensively.

Youngcrev it’s quite the opposite in fact.

Bench units are bad at self creating offence, Thybulle just maxes that out. That’s why the results have been poor.

Harden turns Thybulle into Battier like which is an awesome compliment to Harden and to the on court 5.

No secret of mine that Maxey is an ideal 6th man because it kills two birds with one stone.

I’d hazard to guess review the netrtg with Harden + Thybulle through this year. I believe it will be the same in the playoffs

It’s not so much Thybulle or Harden, it’s the very seamless combo of both.

I'm speaking of specifically the 5 man bench unit we're going with now. You desperately need his defense with Maxey, Shake, Niang and Trez.

Harden/Thybulle don't have a great net rating this year. They're a +2.7 with a ORTG of 108.2 (the lowest of any 2 man grouping with Harden over 100 minutes).

[DCasey91]

That 5 man unit is actually quite good and it’s the 3rd highest mins played (makes sense it’s the bench).

Just peering over the 5 man units but structurally I think there’s a recipe there.

It seems to me that one of Maxey/Harden is on with Embiid, and have size at 4 either Niang to stretch the floor or Harris/Tucker.

Interestingly the 2 worst ones as follows:

Embiid/Harris/Tucker/Melton/Milton (6th/58mins played) whopping -28netrtg 96/126. Easily answered by slow anaemic offence without a perimeter scoring threat at a high enough level.

And Harden/Maxey/Melton/Harris/Embiid (7th/52mins played 112/120 -8netrtg.) That’s also easy just way too small at the 1-3 spot. But it’s funny because if you put Tucker at the 5 then the net rtg explodes 123/109.

I do think in measuring raw numbers there can be a heck a lot of noise in between. Because numbers like these fail to account for, opposition, time of season, home/away splits.

I think objectively you want 2-3 defensive players with one of Harden/Maxey and Embiid (who counts as the defensive player). Then you can order the mins around that. Thybulle obviously should play more mins as we are pretty short on that.

Interestingly Niang features pretty well on high octane offences. Makes sense as a stretch 4 bomber goes with Embiid very very well. (Fit prime Gallo would be a heck of an upgrade over Harris imo).

Check this one out: Embiid/Niang/Thybulle/Milton/Maxey 141/69! That’s disgusting lmao. Can be a fun exercise I suppose. Still that’s a decent lineup structurally if Doc mixes the bench with the starters. 2x scorers on the outside/inside, one trail bomber, 2 perimeter players hunting steals, it’s quite a nice offensive/defensive unit.

[76ciology]

Guys like Quickley, Cole Anthony, Hyland Bones, Anfernee Simons, Cam Thomas can all be as good as scorer or near as good as a scorer than Maxey. What more if you have a top pick like Scoot Henderson 2.0 in some draft in the future?

Sorry but lol

Outside of Simons non of those guys are near Maxey as a scorer. Quickley, Cam Thomas and Cole Anthony cannot even reach average league efficiency on a lot less volume than Maxey. If they took the number of shots Maxey does they would have like a 45% TS

Let's be serious for a moment

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Read on Twitter

Not sure about Maxey being better than Thomas.

Cam Thomas this season when he plays 25+ Minutes:

34.7 PPG
3.5 RPG
3.5 3PG
60/60/80%
71.5 TS%

[Iverson Armband]

Guys like Quickley, Cole Anthony, Hyland Bones, Anfernee Simons, Cam Thomas can all be as good as scorer or near as good as a scorer than Maxey. What more if you have a top pick like Scoot Henderson 2.0 in some draft in the future?

Sorry but lol

Outside of Simons non of those guys are near Maxey as a scorer. Quickley, Cam Thomas and Cole Anthony cannot even reach average league efficiency on a lot less volume than Maxey. If they took the number of shots Maxey does they would have like a 45% TS

Let's be serious for a moment

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Not sure about Maxey being better than Thomas.

Cam Thomas this season when he plays 25+ Minutes:

34.7 PPG
3.5 RPG
3.5 3PG
60/60/80%
71.5 TS%

He needs to prove he can score efficiently while playing with other scorers (KD, Dinwidde). Maxey scored 40+ as a rookie playing with bums too.

[Stanford]

I'm sure that's sustainable

[76ciology]

I'm sure that's sustainable

40+pts wont be sustainable. Nobody can.

But being sustainably better than Maxey in coming years, yes he can

[76ciology]

Sorry but lol

Outside of Simons non of those guys are near Maxey as a scorer. Quickley, Cam Thomas and Cole Anthony cannot even reach average league efficiency on a lot less volume than Maxey. If they took the number of shots Maxey does they would have like a 45% TS

Let's be serious for a moment

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Not sure about Maxey being better than Thomas.

Cam Thomas this season when he plays 25+ Minutes:

34.7 PPG
3.5 RPG
3.5 3PG
60/60/80%
71.5 TS%

He needs to prove he can score efficiently while playing with other scorers (KD, Dinwidde). Maxey scored 40+ as a rookie playing with bums too.

Easier to be efficient if you play with guys like Harden and Embiid who’s generates a lot of gravity. And when most of your scoring is transition, attacking close outs, against bench units and spot ups.

Thomas is way more skilled than maxey, who’s more of an opportunistic scorer than a halfcourt/crunch time scorer that is very valuable in today’s nba.

Im not saying Maxey is a bad player. Its just Cam is better and I dont have any issues with having Maxey. Because for this team, i root for the team not for a single player

[Negrodamus]

Looks like an excellent 6th man that is given the green light to do whatever he wants on offense. I wonder which Nets starter the Clippers targeted to score 124.

[76ciology]

Looks like an excellent 6th man that is given the green light to do whatever he wants on offense. I wonder which Nets starter the Clippers targeted to score 124.

Yup. They’re all excellent as 6th man as Poole or Herro role. But I think Thomas can be a starter with the right set-up because he’s a monster halfcourt scorer

[Negrodamus]

Looks like an excellent 6th man that is given the green light to do whatever he wants on offense. I wonder which Nets starter the Clippers targeted to score 124.

Yup. They’re all excellent as 6th man as Poole or Herro role. But I think Thomas can be a starter with the right set-up because he’s a monster halfcourt scorer

Probably, but who is the upside? Beal? Even he had some defensive chops as a prospect. And even if that is realized, is he worth building a team around like the Wizards are currently stuck with?

I won’t deny that his footwork and craft are exceptional as a scorer, but there’s a reason they haven’t sent him onto the floor and unhooked the leash these past two seasons.

[Decipher]

Looks like an excellent 6th man that is given the green light to do whatever he wants on offense. I wonder which Nets starter the Clippers targeted to score 124.

Pick any of them bar Clax as the team is tiny without KD & Simmons while Joe Harris makes Danny Green look mobile

And I'm talking about Danny with a ruptured ACL

Like you guys, we're desperate for a backup big but at least we have some perimeter size incoming from the Kyrie trade

[Lou_23]

Thomas is the worst defensive player in the NBA. And his shot selection is terrible.

[76ciology]

Looks like an excellent 6th man that is given the green light to do whatever he wants on offense. I wonder which Nets starter the Clippers targeted to score 124.

Yup. They’re all excellent as 6th man as Poole or Herro role. But I think Thomas can be a starter with the right set-up because he’s a monster halfcourt scorer

Probably, but who is the upside? Beal? Even he had some defensive chops as a prospect. And even if that is realized, is he worth building a team around like the Wizards are currently stuck with?

I won’t deny that his footwork and craft are exceptional as a scorer, but there’s a reason they haven’t sent him onto the floor and unhooked the leash these past two seasons.

Devin Booker, SG version of Kyrie or SG version of Tatum?

With the right structure, you can build around him. And let him be your go to guy on offense.

The reason why he’s on the leash is because he’s playing behind two of the greatest shot creators in the league. He’d probably average 25-30ppg with the Rox or Pistons