Pascal is on the brink of SUPERSTARDOM...

[Steelo Green]

Pascal is a fine player as I and many have said - he slows down as the year goes on and with his lack of shooting and defense falling off makes him not some untouchable.

Better players than Pascal have been traded.

The affinity should be to winning - not players.

Check the recent poll on the forum, the vast majority of the board is open to trading Siakam, so all you have done here is present yet another strawman argument.

The recent posts here in this thread are suggesting that Aaron Gordon is better than Siakam, which is laughable. Even more hilarious because the take was presented by someone who routinely calls out other posters for being casuals and not knowing anything about basketball.

Open to trading Siakam for what he likely isn't worth.

There are 15-20 better players than Pascal, then you have young players who are more valuable than Pascal due to age.

We are talking about a borderline all-star, but this place acts like we are letting go of some all time great.

[Pooh_Jeter]

This season, Pascal's usage is a bit higher in wins than losses. And we basically win more when he makes his shots. Last season, it was even more pronounced. We won when his usage was a lot higher than in our losses.

Selfishly chase those stats Pascal. It helps the team win.

It is so confusing to see the same posters rightfully begging for a Donovan Mitchell type player that can create their own shot and be a focal point on offense, and then within the same breath disparage our only player that even comes close to fitting that mold. Siakam could always be better, but imagine for a moment how much worse our offense this year would have been if we had Arron Gordon instead of Siakam. SMH...

Imagine how much better the Raptors defense would be with Aaron Gordon. Doing a bad job being a #1 option doesn't make you a good player. Playing beside better players isn't the reason why this version of Gordon is better than the Orlando one, he has completely shifted his play style. It's funny how Raptors fans have an aversion to a player who has given up accolades in the pursuit of winning and making his team better.

[YogurtProducer]

This season, Pascal's usage is a bit higher in wins than losses. And we basically win more when he makes his shots. Last season, it was even more pronounced. We won when his usage was a lot higher than in our losses.

Selfishly chase those stats Pascal. It helps the team win.

It is so confusing to see the same posters rightfully begging for a Donovan Mitchell type player that can create their own shot and be a focal point on offense, and then within the same breath disparage our only player that even comes close to fitting that mold. Siakam could always be better, but imagine for a moment how much worse our offense this year would have been if we had Arron Gordon instead of Siakam. SMH...

Imagine how much better the Raptors defense would be with Aaron Gordon. Doing a bad job being a #1 option doesn't make you a good player. Playing beside better players isn't the reason why this version of Gordon is better than the Orlando one, he has completely shifted his play style. It's funny how Raptors fans have an aversion to a player who has given up accolades in the pursuit of winning and making his team better.

You think Aaron Gordon would make our defense "much better"?

This version of Gordon is only allowed to play a different play style because he plays with Jokic. If he was still in Orlando he would be a mid player that no one cares bout outside of that he loses dunk contests.

We have seem Siakam in the Gordon role. He did it in 2019 and we won a ring because playing alongside Kawhi allowed Siakam to play that role. We don't have a Kawhi/Jokic now so no **** he cannot play off of another guy

This Gordon debate is really exposing some people sheesh

Also, the "doing a bad job being a #1 option" is such a small minded way of looking at Pascal.

[OakleyDokely]

This season, Pascal's usage is a bit higher in wins than losses. And we basically win more when he makes his shots. Last season, it was even more pronounced. We won when his usage was a lot higher than in our losses.

Selfishly chase those stats Pascal. It helps the team win.

It is so confusing to see the same posters rightfully begging for a Donovan Mitchell type player that can create their own shot and be a focal point on offense, and then within the same breath disparage our only player that even comes close to fitting that mold. Siakam could always be better, but imagine for a moment how much worse our offense this year would have been if we had Arron Gordon instead of Siakam. SMH...

Imagine how much better the Raptors defense would be with Aaron Gordon. Doing a bad job being a #1 option doesn't make you a good player. Playing beside better players isn't the reason why this version of Gordon is better than the Orlando one, he has completely shifted his play style. It's funny how Raptors fans have an aversion to a player who has given up accolades in the pursuit of winning and making his team better.

Gordon had to shift his playing style because he's playing with a multiple time MVP.

Gordon had seasons with usages levels of 24-25 in Orlando because they needed more offense from him. This isn't the case in DEN with Jokic, Murray, Porter. His role changed out of necessity and because of his new teams structure.

It's simply amazing that you don't get this.

[Spates]

:wink: Del, fantastic trolling btw.

It was not my intention to troll. My motivation was to counter-argue that Siakam is a lock for All-NBA/top 15 this season.

You certainly sparked a discussion, congrats!

[Pooh_Jeter]

It is so confusing to see the same posters rightfully begging for a Donovan Mitchell type player that can create their own shot and be a focal point on offense, and then within the same breath disparage our only player that even comes close to fitting that mold. Siakam could always be better, but imagine for a moment how much worse our offense this year would have been if we had Arron Gordon instead of Siakam. SMH...

Imagine how much better the Raptors defense would be with Aaron Gordon. Doing a bad job being a #1 option doesn't make you a good player. Playing beside better players isn't the reason why this version of Gordon is better than the Orlando one, he has completely shifted his play style. It's funny how Raptors fans have an aversion to a player who has given up accolades in the pursuit of winning and making his team better.

Gordon had to shift his playing style because he's playing with a multiple time MVP.

Gordon had seasons with usages levels of 24-25 in Orlando because they needed more offense from hin. This isn't the case in DEN with Jokic, Murray, Porter Jr. He role changed out of necessity and team structure.

It's simply amazing that you don't get this.

And how many players in this situation wouldn't have shifted their playstyle because of their ego? The whole point is that Gordon has gone from empty stats to the ultimate winning player.

Also, for those bringing up Siakam next to Kawhi, Gordon is actually having a more impactful season than Pascal in the championship year so that argument doesn't actually hold water either.

It's unfortunate that people want to minimize the strides Gordon has taken because they think players just magically fit together like this is a game of NBA2K

[OakleyDokely]

Imagine how much better the Raptors defense would be with Aaron Gordon. Doing a bad job being a #1 option doesn't make you a good player. Playing beside better players isn't the reason why this version of Gordon is better than the Orlando one, he has completely shifted his play style. It's funny how Raptors fans have an aversion to a player who has given up accolades in the pursuit of winning and making his team better.

Gordon had to shift his playing style because he's playing with a multiple time MVP.

Gordon had seasons with usages levels of 24-25 in Orlando because they needed more offense from hin. This isn't the case in DEN with Jokic, Murray, Porter Jr. He role changed out of necessity and team structure.

It's simply amazing that you don't get this.

And how many players in this situation wouldn't have shifted their playstyle because of their ego? The whole point is that Gordon has gone from empty stats to the ultimate winning player.

Also, for those bringing up Siakam next to Kawhi, Gordon is actually having a more impactful season than Pascal in the championship year so that argument doesn't actually hold water either.

It's unfortunate that people want to minimize the strides Gordon has taken because they think players just magically fit together like this is a game of NBA2K

It's great that Gordon accepted his role, but his situation is completely different than the one Siakam is in.

Comparing them is worthless because their situations and roles and expectations are vastly different.

[ItsDanger]

Aaron Gordon after 1st game with Denver "everybody on the team is making the right play, sharing the ball, just makes the game easy". Obviously Jokic, a real superstar, sets the tone as you'd expect from your leaders. Hmmmm.

[will]

Aaron Gordon after 1st game with Denver "everybody on the team is making the right play, sharing the ball, just makes the game easy". Obviously Jokic, a real superstar, sets the tone as you'd expect from your leaders. Hmmmm.

The Raptors simply do not have a player that sets the tone to elevate their mates.

Scottish could be the one...however we won't know until that deadwood is moved out.

[deck]

Imagine how much better the Raptors defense would be with Aaron Gordon. Doing a bad job being a #1 option doesn't make you a good player. Playing beside better players isn't the reason why this version of Gordon is better than the Orlando one, he has completely shifted his play style. It's funny how Raptors fans have an aversion to a player who has given up accolades in the pursuit of winning and making his team better.

Gordon had to shift his playing style because he's playing with a multiple time MVP.

Gordon had seasons with usages levels of 24-25 in Orlando because they needed more offense from hin. This isn't the case in DEN with Jokic, Murray, Porter Jr. He role changed out of necessity and team structure.

It's simply amazing that you don't get this.

And how many players in this situation wouldn't have shifted their playstyle because of their ego? The whole point is that Gordon has gone from empty stats to the ultimate winning player.

Also, for those bringing up Siakam next to Kawhi, Gordon is actually having a more impactful season than Pascal in the championship year so that argument doesn't actually hold water either.

It's unfortunate that people want to minimize the strides Gordon has taken because they think players just magically fit together like this is a game of NBA2K

So you would trade Siakam straight up for Gordon?

I am not taking anything away from Gordon, but the fact that there is actually a debate about which player is more valuable is silly and strains credibility of posters holding that position.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Gordon had to shift his playing style because he's playing with a multiple time MVP.

Gordon had seasons with usages levels of 24-25 in Orlando because they needed more offense from hin. This isn't the case in DEN with Jokic, Murray, Porter Jr. He role changed out of necessity and team structure.

It's simply amazing that you don't get this.

And how many players in this situation wouldn't have shifted their playstyle because of their ego? The whole point is that Gordon has gone from empty stats to the ultimate winning player.

Also, for those bringing up Siakam next to Kawhi, Gordon is actually having a more impactful season than Pascal in the championship year so that argument doesn't actually hold water either.

It's unfortunate that people want to minimize the strides Gordon has taken because they think players just magically fit together like this is a game of NBA2K

So you would trade Siakam straight up for Gordon?

I am not taking anything away from Gordon, but the fact that there is actually a debate about which player is more valuable is silly and strains credibility of posters holding that position.

Gordon signed an outstanding value 4yr 86m deal so he has more value than Siakam going forward. He is even younger too!

[deck]

Pascal is a fine player as I and many have said - he slows down as the year goes on and with his lack of shooting and defense falling off makes him not some untouchable.

Better players than Pascal have been traded.

The affinity should be to winning - not players.

Check the recent poll on the forum, the vast majority of the board is open to trading Siakam, so all you have done here is present yet another strawman argument.

The recent posts here in this thread are suggesting that Aaron Gordon is better than Siakam, which is laughable. Even more hilarious because the take was presented by someone who routinely calls out other posters for being casuals and not knowing anything about basketball.

Open to trading Siakam for what he likely isn't worth.

There are 15-20 better players than Pascal, then you have young players who are more valuable than Pascal due to age.

We are talking about a borderline all-star, but this place acts like we are letting go of some all time great.

Citation needed. Who says this? Do you understand what a strawman argument is? It's where you posit is a position that nobody actually holds to be true, and then you proceed to refute that position. Ie. you are arguing with yourself.

The vast majority of the board believes exactly what you posted above, that Siakam is maybe a top 25 player. This original thread was created when he was playing out of his mind for the last 20 games of last year, and the first 3 games of this year. God forbid LoveMyRaps showed a bit of optimism and hoped that he could continue that play.

So please, provide evidence that people from this board believe Siakam to be an all time great. Or perhaps move the goal posts again cause you realize the recent debate in this thread that Gordon is more valuable than Siakam is ridiculous.

[OakleyDokely]

And how many players in this situation wouldn't have shifted their playstyle because of their ego? The whole point is that Gordon has gone from empty stats to the ultimate winning player.

Also, for those bringing up Siakam next to Kawhi, Gordon is actually having a more impactful season than Pascal in the championship year so that argument doesn't actually hold water either.

It's unfortunate that people want to minimize the strides Gordon has taken because they think players just magically fit together like this is a game of NBA2K

So you would trade Siakam straight up for Gordon?

I am not taking anything away from Gordon, but the fact that there is actually a debate about which player is more valuable is silly and strains credibility of posters holding that position.

Gordon signed an outstanding value 4yr 86m deal so he has more value than Siakam going forward. He is even younger too!

Imagine thinking that flipping Siakam for Gordon makes the Raps better.

Ouch.

[Clay Davis]

Imagine how much better the Raptors defense would be with Aaron Gordon. Doing a bad job being a #1 option doesn't make you a good player. Playing beside better players isn't the reason why this version of Gordon is better than the Orlando one, he has completely shifted his play style. It's funny how Raptors fans have an aversion to a player who has given up accolades in the pursuit of winning and making his team better.

Gordon had to shift his playing style because he's playing with a multiple time MVP.

Gordon had seasons with usages levels of 24-25 in Orlando because they needed more offense from hin. This isn't the case in DEN with Jokic, Murray, Porter Jr. He role changed out of necessity and team structure.

It's simply amazing that you don't get this.

And how many players in this situation wouldn't have shifted their playstyle because of their ego? The whole point is that Gordon has gone from empty stats to the ultimate winning player.

Also, for those bringing up Siakam next to Kawhi, Gordon is actually having a more impactful season than Pascal in the championship year so that argument doesn't actually hold water either.

It's unfortunate that people want to minimize the strides Gordon has taken because they think players just magically fit together like this is a game of NBA2K

Ya but Gordon is at a pretty advanced stage in his career. 27 year old Siakam would do a great job doing what 27 year old Gordon is doing right now... 28 year old Siakam would be even better. When Gordon was 25 years old he was averaging 12 points per game.

Also, have you watched Glass Onion yet? Or are you still working through the catalogue of renowned adult actress, Brandi Love?

[KrazyP]

This season, Pascal's usage is a bit higher in wins than losses. And we basically win more when he makes his shots. Last season, it was even more pronounced. We won when his usage was a lot higher than in our losses.

Selfishly chase those stats Pascal. It helps the team win.

It is so confusing to see the same posters rightfully begging for a Donovan Mitchell type player that can create their own shot and be a focal point on offense, and then within the same breath disparage our only player that even comes close to fitting that mold. Siakam could always be better, but imagine for a moment how much worse our offense this year would have been if we had Arron Gordon instead of Siakam. SMH...

Imagine how much better the Raptors defense would be with Aaron Gordon. Doing a bad job being a #1 option doesn't make you a good player. Playing beside better players isn't the reason why this version of Gordon is better than the Orlando one, he has completely shifted his play style. It's funny how Raptors fans have an aversion to a player who has given up accolades in the pursuit of winning and making his team better.

What kind or argument is this? You think the Raps would get better if they replaced Pascal Siakam with Aaron Gordon? If not, why are you cluttering the board with negative drivel?

[raptor jesus]

Siakam has always been prone to these stretches where he struggles with his touch. Maybe it's a fatigue thing, maybe it's the basketball gods trying to counter-act his extraordinary rise. Whatever the case, it is the barrier that prevents him from being a true #1. Kawhi would have off-shooting nights, but always self-corrected seemingly the next game. But zooming out, it's pretty incredible how far Siakam has come; there's a lot more to celebrate than complain about.

And I don't get the Aaron Gordon thing. Good player, but he'd be a complete flop in Siakam's role. Siakam would excel just the same, if not better, in Gordon's role.

[Son Goku 25]

Siakam is way better than Gordon lol df come on now

[TRik]

Gordon has maximized his talent by doing less and being the ultimate team player. He isnt trying to be the guy, instead he is making all the winning plays (running the lane, cutting off ball, playmaking and being an awesome defender).

Siakam has gone the opposite route, from a 2 way monster to an empty stats pseudo star who is leading his team to the lottery.

Why does this feel correct. Hmmmmm. Oh yeah…our record…..and their record.

Yeah let's ignore the fact that Gordon is playing next to the current reigning MVP and potentially the best player in the league. While Pascal is being forced into a #1 role when he isn't that.

As predicted, the hate is already shifting... Can't wait for 300 pages of "Its time to trade Pascal".

Yes, yes Duff. You’re so smart with being able to predict the hate.

How dare we highlight the benefit of role definition.

[KrazyP]

Siakam has always been prone to these stretches where he struggles with his touch. Maybe it's a fatigue thing, maybe it's the basketball gods trying to counter-act his extraordinary rise. Whatever the case, it is the barrier that prevents him from being a true #1. Kawhi would have off-shooting nights, but always self-corrected seemingly the next game. But zooming out, it's pretty incredible how far Siakam has come; there's a lot more to celebrate than complain about.

And I don't get the Aaron Gordon thing. Good player, but he'd be a complete flop in Siakam's role. Siakam would excel just the same, if not better, in Gordon's role.

Kawhi is certainly on another level talent and skill wise but it should also be noted that he's constantly load managing so fatigue is never really an issue.

Siakam is currently being asked to (1) be a 1st scoring option, (2) be the teams best facilitator, (3) be a 2-way player (good defender) and (4) lead the NBA in minutes. How many players in the NBA are actually successful doing all these things for a full 82 game schedule?

[Steelo Green]

People act like this first option workload is some brand new thing.

Paul George - a better player than Pascal, was traded.
Jimmy Butler - a better player than Pascal, was traded.

We can go on.

These teams knew you couldn't build around these guys as your one. Where will we get a one as is? We aren't even a playoff team.