Pascal is on the brink of SUPERSTARDOM...

[KrazyP]

People act like this first option workload is some brand new thing.

Paul George - a better player than Pascal, was traded.
Jimmy Butler - a better player than Pascal, was traded.

We can go on.

These teams knew you couldn't build around these guys as your one. Where will we get a one as is? We aren't even a playoff team.

Anybody can be traded.

That said, comparing Siakam to Aaron Gordon which has been done by several posters in this thread is completely idiotic.

Siakam isnt the reason this current team has underperformed.

[OakleyDokely]

People act like this first option workload is some brand new thing.

Paul George - a better player than Pascal, was traded.
Jimmy Butler - a better player than Pascal, was traded.

We can go on.

These teams knew you couldn't build around these guys as your one. Where will we get a one as is? We aren't even a playoff team.

Anybody can be traded.

That said, comparing Siakam to Aaron Gordon which has been done by several posters in this thread is completely idiotic.

Siakam isnt the reason this current team has underperformed.

These guys are in 'old man yelling at clouds' territory.

Who exactly said Siakam can't be traded or is untouchable?

OKC got one of the biggest packages of draft picks ever + SGA for PG. The Wolves gave up a future all-star in Lavine and quality picks (one end up being Markkanen) for Butler.

If you get an offer like that for Siakam, then you need to seriously consider it. Sane people just don't want to trade Siakam just to trade him. We want value back.

[Duffman100]

Why does this feel correct. Hmmmmm. Oh yeah…our record…..and their record.

Yeah let's ignore the fact that Gordon is playing next to the current reigning MVP and potentially the best player in the league. While Pascal is being forced into a #1 role when he isn't that.

As predicted, the hate is already shifting... Can't wait for 300 pages of "Its time to trade Pascal".

Yes, yes Duff. You’re so smart with being able to predict the hate.

How dare we highlight the benefit of role definition.

Role definition despite we have no one to take over what Siakam does? The 'highlighting' is inherently flawed since we'd be no better of (worse off) if Siakam took a 2nd fiddle role. Who is playing that first fiddle? Whose usage is increasing?

Gordon has Jokic, that's why Gordon is able to benefit from that role definition.

[ItsDanger]

So the inverse of these arguments is our players aren't in their proper roles. Cut their usage down.

[Fairview4Life]

Or draft Jokic next time.

[Duffman100]

So the inverse of these arguments is our players aren't in their proper roles. Cut their usage down.

Perfect. We'll have a negative usage blackhole that nobody will fill. All the players will stand around and watch the shot clock dwindle down.

You make due with the best options you have at the time. Everyone and their mother knows Siakam isn't a number 1 player. To then chastize him and say he's not playing his 2nd fiddle role (when we don't have anyone to fill the usage gap) is ridiculous.

[TRik]

Yeah let's ignore the fact that Gordon is playing next to the current reigning MVP and potentially the best player in the league. While Pascal is being forced into a #1 role when he isn't that.

As predicted, the hate is already shifting... Can't wait for 300 pages of "Its time to trade Pascal".

Yes, yes Duff. You’re so smart with being able to predict the hate.

How dare we highlight the benefit of role definition.

Role definition despite we have no one to take over what Siakam does? The 'highlighting' is inherently flawed since we'd be no better of (worse off) if Siakam took a 2nd fiddle role. Who is playing that first fiddle? Whose usage is increasing?

Gordon has Jokic, that's why Gordon is able to benefit from that role definition.

Dude you’re acting as if it’s black and white and we’re just wrong. It’s not black and white. Pascal said at the beginning of the season that he has a goal of being top five this year. So he clearly has a lot of impact on the whole first option thing. Sure we don’t have a different legitimate first option, but don’t act like he doesn’t want that.

[ItsDanger]

So the inverse of these arguments is our players aren't in their proper roles. Cut their usage down.

Perfect. We'll have a negative usage blackhole that nobody will fill. All the players will stand around and watch the shot clock dwindle down.

You make due with the best options you have at the time. Everyone and their mother knows Siakam isn't a number 1 player. To then chastize him and say he's not playing his 2nd fiddle role (when we don't have anyone to fill the usage gap) is ridiculous.

I believe the point of the arguments that posters are presenting is that this roster is short on talent. Given recent replies here, I'd say the opposing viewpoint might actually agree in principle. The current roster forces people above their roles yet too many can't accept that reality. Combine with other factors (age, contract), the prudent move is to change course. Wins and losses in NBA are a zero sum. Right now, the other teams are just better.

[Duffman100]

Yes, yes Duff. You’re so smart with being able to predict the hate.

How dare we highlight the benefit of role definition.

Role definition despite we have no one to take over what Siakam does? The 'highlighting' is inherently flawed since we'd be no better of (worse off) if Siakam took a 2nd fiddle role. Who is playing that first fiddle? Whose usage is increasing?

Gordon has Jokic, that's why Gordon is able to benefit from that role definition.

Dude you’re acting as if it’s black and white and we’re just wrong. It’s not black and white. Pascal said at the beginning of the season that he has a goal of being top five this year. So he clearly has a lot of impact on the whole first option thing. Sure we don’t have a different legitimate first option, but don’t act like he doesn’t want that.

That isn't the argument and that isn't what has been discussed. Let's keep it on the topic.

Gordon is filling his role as the 2nd/3rd option. He has that luxury because he plays with the MVP / potentially best player in the league.

Siakam is trying to fill the role of the 1st option because we have no other player. He doesn't have a player of the calibre of Jokic to play off of.

To criticize Siakam and say "hey dude, play like Gordon and you'll be better" is ridiculous.

[OakleyDokely]

What are we even talking about here? Siakam's usage level isn't even that high. He's 29th overall is usage, just below Fox/Randle and just ahead of AD/Westbrook. The very elite guys are in the high 30s, Siakam is in the mid to high 20s. Siakam is used like a lower end #1 / high end #2.

[TRik]

Role definition despite we have no one to take over what Siakam does? The 'highlighting' is inherently flawed since we'd be no better of (worse off) if Siakam took a 2nd fiddle role. Who is playing that first fiddle? Whose usage is increasing?

Gordon has Jokic, that's why Gordon is able to benefit from that role definition.

Dude you’re acting as if it’s black and white and we’re just wrong. It’s not black and white. Pascal said at the beginning of the season that he has a goal of being top five this year. So he clearly has a lot of impact on the whole first option thing. Sure we don’t have a different legitimate first option, but don’t act like he doesn’t want that.

That isn't the argument and that isn't what has been discussed. Let's keep it on the topic.

Gordon is filling his role as the 2nd/3rd option. He has that luxury because he plays with the MVP / potentially best player in the league.

Siakam is trying to fill the role of the 1st option because we have no other player. He doesn't have a player of the calibre of Jokic to play off of.

To criticize Siakam and say "hey dude, play like Gordon and you'll be better" is ridiculous.

Ok. Well, it’s clear we don’t get along anymore. So I’d appreciate if you can just avoid quoting me.

Cheers.

[Duffman100]

Dude you’re acting as if it’s black and white and we’re just wrong. It’s not black and white. Pascal said at the beginning of the season that he has a goal of being top five this year. So he clearly has a lot of impact on the whole first option thing. Sure we don’t have a different legitimate first option, but don’t act like he doesn’t want that.

That isn't the argument and that isn't what has been discussed. Let's keep it on the topic.

Gordon is filling his role as the 2nd/3rd option. He has that luxury because he plays with the MVP / potentially best player in the league.

Siakam is trying to fill the role of the 1st option because we have no other player. He doesn't have a player of the calibre of Jokic to play off of.

To criticize Siakam and say "hey dude, play like Gordon and you'll be better" is ridiculous.

Ok. Well, it’s clear we don’t get along anymore. So I’d appreciate if you can just avoid quoting me.

Cheers.

I bring it back to the argument that was actually discussed and now it's "we don't get along". We had pleasant PMs where I thought we had agreed on things and were cool. For some reason that's the case now.

[TRik]

That isn't the argument and that isn't what has been discussed. Let's keep it on the topic.

Gordon is filling his role as the 2nd/3rd option. He has that luxury because he plays with the MVP / potentially best player in the league.

Siakam is trying to fill the role of the 1st option because we have no other player. He doesn't have a player of the calibre of Jokic to play off of.

To criticize Siakam and say "hey dude, play like Gordon and you'll be better" is ridiculous.

Ok. Well, it’s clear we don’t get along anymore. So I’d appreciate if you can just avoid quoting me.

Cheers.

I bring it back to the argument that was actually discussed and now it's "we don't get along". We had pleasant PMs where I thought we had agreed on things and were cool. For some reason that's the case now.

Yeah, we had a pleasant PM exchange a few months ago. Since then basically every time you quote me it comes across as antagonistic or like you’re trying to bait me into something. Which is what started this conversation. So yes, from my perspective we ain’t getting along mate.

Both our opinions about Pascal can be valid. Let’s leave it there.

I never quote you anymore. Unless you’re acting as a mod and giving me a warning I’d appreciate if you avoid quoting me moving forward.

[Johnny Bball]

Pascal is a fine player as I and many have said - he slows down as the year goes on and with his lack of shooting and defense falling off makes him not some untouchable.

Better players than Pascal have been traded.

The affinity should be to winning - not players.

Check the recent poll on the forum, the vast majority of the board is open to trading Siakam, so all you have done here is present yet another strawman argument.

The recent posts here in this thread are suggesting that Aaron Gordon is better than Siakam, which is laughable. Even more hilarious because the take was presented by someone who routinely calls out other posters for being casuals and not knowing anything about basketball.

Open to trading Siakam for what he likely isn't worth.

There are 15-20 better players than Pascal, then you have young players who are more valuable than Pascal due to age.

We are talking about a borderline all-star, but this place acts like we are letting go of some all time great.

Just a few months ago you said you were going to laugh as Siakam’s career fizzled out. Now you cal him a borderline allstar just so you can talk about trading him and him not being important.

When you routinely flip like a weathervane depending which slant you want to deliver, I don’t know why anyone really would think you believe any of this.

[deck]

So the inverse of these arguments is our players aren't in their proper roles. Cut their usage down.

Perfect. We'll have a negative usage blackhole that nobody will fill. All the players will stand around and watch the shot clock dwindle down.

You make due with the best options you have at the time. Everyone and their mother knows Siakam isn't a number 1 player. To then chastize him and say he's not playing his 2nd fiddle role (when we don't have anyone to fill the usage gap) is ridiculous.

I believe the point of the arguments that posters are presenting is that this roster is short on talent. Given recent replies here, I'd say the opposing viewpoint might actually agree in principle. The current roster forces people above their roles yet too many can't accept that reality. Combine with other factors (age, contract), the prudent move is to change course. Wins and losses in NBA are a zero sum. Right now, the other teams are just better.

And there it is, moving the goal posts. Or perhaps more accurately, changing the argument entirely.

The point that started this whole thread again was the suggestion that Arron Gordon is better than Pascal Siakam. Absolutely nothing to do with role definition or team talent. Absolutely nothing to do with trading or not trading Siakam.

The insane reasoning of a select few posters is that trading Siakam for Gordon improves the talent on the roster? This is preposterous. But such is the quality of posts on the Toronto RealGM board in 2023.

[mrdressup]

Pascal is on the brink of making the all-star team.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Gordon had to shift his playing style because he's playing with a multiple time MVP.

Gordon had seasons with usages levels of 24-25 in Orlando because they needed more offense from hin. This isn't the case in DEN with Jokic, Murray, Porter Jr. He role changed out of necessity and team structure.

It's simply amazing that you don't get this.

And how many players in this situation wouldn't have shifted their playstyle because of their ego? The whole point is that Gordon has gone from empty stats to the ultimate winning player.

Also, for those bringing up Siakam next to Kawhi, Gordon is actually having a more impactful season than Pascal in the championship year so that argument doesn't actually hold water either.

It's unfortunate that people want to minimize the strides Gordon has taken because they think players just magically fit together like this is a game of NBA2K

Ya but Gordon is at a pretty advanced stage in his career. 27 year old Siakam would do a great job doing what 27 year old Gordon is doing right now... 28 year old Siakam would be even better. When Gordon was 25 years old he was averaging 12 points per game.

Also, have you watched Glass Onion yet? Or are you still working through the catalogue of renowned adult actress, Brandi Love?

It's why age isn't a good measure of things. Gordon was the more heralded prospect and better at a younger age, then Siakam surpassed him and now Gordon is the more impactful player again.

Anyways, I haven't seen Glass Onion yet! I've been lost in the Brandi Love catalogue. Her films have incredible rewatchability. I'm hoping by 2024 I can get to Glass Onion.

[TRik]

And how many players in this situation wouldn't have shifted their playstyle because of their ego? The whole point is that Gordon has gone from empty stats to the ultimate winning player.

Also, for those bringing up Siakam next to Kawhi, Gordon is actually having a more impactful season than Pascal in the championship year so that argument doesn't actually hold water either.


It's unfortunate that people want to minimize the strides Gordon has taken because they think players just magically fit together like this is a game of NBA2K

Ya but Gordon is at a pretty advanced stage in his career. 27 year old Siakam would do a great job doing what 27 year old Gordon is doing right now... 28 year old Siakam would be even better. When Gordon was 25 years old he was averaging 12 points per game.

Also, have you watched Glass Onion yet? Or are you still working through the catalogue of renowned adult actress, Brandi Love?

It's why age isn't a good measure of things. Gordon was the more heralded prospect and better at a younger age, then Siakam surpassed him and now Gordon is the more impactful player again.

Anyways, I haven't seen Glass Onion yet! I've been lost in the Brandi Love catalogue. Her films have incredible rewatchability. I'm hoping by 2024 I can get to Glass Onion.

Ewww_Jeter

[Clay Davis]

And how many players in this situation wouldn't have shifted their playstyle because of their ego? The whole point is that Gordon has gone from empty stats to the ultimate winning player.

Also, for those bringing up Siakam next to Kawhi, Gordon is actually having a more impactful season than Pascal in the championship year so that argument doesn't actually hold water either.

It's unfortunate that people want to minimize the strides Gordon has taken because they think players just magically fit together like this is a game of NBA2K

Ya but Gordon is at a pretty advanced stage in his career. 27 year old Siakam would do a great job doing what 27 year old Gordon is doing right now... 28 year old Siakam would be even better. When Gordon was 25 years old he was averaging 12 points per game.

Also, have you watched Glass Onion yet? Or are you still working through the catalogue of renowned adult actress, Brandi Love?

It's why age isn't a good measure of things. Gordon was the more heralded prospect and better at a younger age, then Siakam surpassed him and now Gordon is the more impactful player again.

Anyways, I haven't seen Glass Onion yet! I've been lost in the Brandi Love catalogue. Her films have incredible rewatchability. I'm hoping by 2024 I can get to Glass Onion.

The career arc of Pascal Siakam is actually quite like the elite adult actress Brandi Love’s… relatively unknown as a teen, he exploded once he entered what are his athletically “mature” years. It’s for this reason that I speculate on the Big Sexxer Master Flexer’s predilection for older women.


Sent from my Honda CRV using Tapatalk

[TrustFundBaby]

All these stats show, is that Gordon in his current role is having a better impact than Siakam this season. Credit to Gordon, who's done a good job fitting into a team that traded for him. He's surrounded by shooters and the MVP, and his role on offence is to cut, hit open 3s, and move the ball. We literally saw Siakam in that role before, although Siakam was tasked to do a bit more that season, and he won a championship. Remains to be seen if Gordon can accomplish what Spicy P has. Also, this is Gordon's 3rd year in his role, so it took him a lot of development time next to an MVP to become a solid 3rd guy. Siakam had 1 year with kawhi and got it done.

we saw Gordon as the man in ORL and it wasn't pretty. Siakam had better success in both of Gordon's role, he's playing well but he's no 2x All NBAer