LeBron's All Time Ranking Now (After Becoming All Time Leader In Points)

[rk2023]

https://www.si.com/sportsperson/2020/12/07/lebron-james-lakers-sportsperson-award-kareem-abdul-jabbar
https://kareem.substack.com/p/what-i-think-about-lebron-breaking?sd=pf

Circling back to my original premise, an excerpt I found from an SI article written by Kareem himself in 2020 and cited in his most recent Substack congratulating James for said scoring record really resonated with me in debates like these.

"Let’s get right to the Greatest of All Time question: Is LeBron the GOAT? The stats are pretty convincing: 16 All-Star appearances, four MVP awards, four NBA championships and four Finals MVPs—including in 2020, when he led the Lakers to their 17th title. Whew! His accomplishments are exhausting just to read. Sadly, the question will have to remain the favorite pastime of sports- writers on deadline but out of ideas, bar patrons shaky from beer nut withdrawal and statistics- obsessed fans waiting for the next season to start. Final answer: There is no way of determining the mythical GOAT because the criteria change. It’s like asking who’s the greatest singer of all time. (Answer: It’s Billie Holiday.) Players from past eras operated under different rules and therefore had to craft their style around those rules. There’s no way to fairly compare." - from the Captain himself.

While I think a relative to era mindset addresses the root cause(s), at the end of the day it is all about preference.

[dreamshake]

Raising or lowering Lebron's peak would do the trick for many

I see LeBron's apex (in my opinion, 2009) to be the most valuable season and #1 peak - 2012 and 13 are good shouts for this placement as well. Extended/later prime years such as 2020, 2017 very much impress me as well. When the board does Greatest Careers, I will elaborate more.

I think we should normalize 2016 being > or comprable to 2012/2013 tbh.

Nah, the playoff run and especially finals were legendary, but his regular season in '16 wasn't close to '12 or especially '13. His shot was kinda broken in '16 - lowest 3P% of his career excluding rookie year. His regular season defense also was a step below what it was in Miami. 2013 he was ultra-efficient (56% FG, 40% 3P) on offense, played great D, and led that epic win streak. And the title run was pretty special that year too.

[NbaAllDay]

He was 1st before this record.

Now he has broken it, he is 0st.

[70sFan]

If your ranking is different today than it was a few days ago then your ranking system is incredibly weird.

Tell that to 70'sFan, who knows more about basketball than anyone on this forum. He said he would be moving LeBron ahead of his Hero, Kareem Abdul-Jabaar, once LeBron passed Kareem in career points.

When did I say that? Provide the exact quote.

[70sFan]

Scoring record doesn't tell us anything new about James, it's a great accomplishment but it doesn't change my ranking.

I don't evaluate a season before it's over but I think I can comfortably say that he's on the top of my list at this point. His combination of absurd peak, long and consistent prime along with absurd longevity is undeniable at this point.

Of course some people might still prefer other players at the GOAT place. I have 4 players in my GOAT tier and all of them have reasonable cases.

[OhayoKD]

I see LeBron's apex (in my opinion, 2009) to be the most valuable season and #1 peak - 2012 and 13 are good shouts for this placement as well. Extended/later prime years such as 2020, 2017 very much impress me as well. When the board does Greatest Careers, I will elaborate more.

I think we should normalize 2016 being > or comprable to 2012/2013 tbh.

Nah, the playoff run and especially finals were legendary, but his regular season in '16 wasn't close to '12 or especially '13. His shot was kinda broken in '16 - lowest 3P% of his career excluding rookie year. His regular season defense also was a step below what it was in Miami. 2013 he was ultra-efficient (56% FG, 40% 3P) on offense, played great D, and led that epic win streak. And the title run was pretty special that year too.

Yeah, I don't think there's much to support that, whether you go by granulars(synergy stuff for example), or look more broadly.

Lebron's holistic and defensive impact was similar or better by basically everything in the RS. Cavs were a decent defense with him despite having two negatives in the lineup, bad defensively without him, and cleveland racked up 57 wins despite kyrie having a down year and missing almost of half of the season(range here is sub 30 to 30ish for the cavs with kyrie and love and without lebron depending on what you use). I'd say the "Lebron has stopped playing D" is mostly media narrative crafting. Even in 2015 with less agility and a weak start, Lebron was posting historic non-big d impact, historic holistics(lineup-adjusted, pure, wahtever), and was probably protecting the paint the more than he did in Miami(definitely was in the playoffs). I think Heej covers the defensive stuff pretty well:

2012 was a much better case for it imo but nah 2016 he was elite. We have stats from that season where LeBron was monstrous defending every playtype. He wasn't simply coasting in 2016, the Cavs just underperformed relative to the Warriors that year and it colored people's perception of LeBron. He had a great defensive season from beginning to end in 2016, and he only cemented that further in the Finals.

The posts about LeBron not having enough traditional defensive counting stats pointing to a lack of activity is exactly what's wrong with basketball discourse when discussing defense. Unless you've played organized ball or have taken the time to watch professional level coaching videos on defense, you're not going to appreciate the fact that the most important thing a help defender can be on defense is a "yellow light".

Someone who's able to plug up the gaps or is far enough over on the weakside to "help the helper" and allow the closer weakside defender to fill the gap, or something as simple as tagging a roll man to fly out to a shooter and cause a record scratch is faaaaar more valuable over time than a flashy chest to chest lockdown guy.

And for my money, Bron has been absolutely one of the best I've seen at helping the helper and navigating backside rotations whether it be stunting and recovering or X'ing out on closeouts. It doesn't look flashy and doesn't need to be flashy to be effective. Although Bron has had PLENTY of flashy defensive plays. They say the best ability in basketball is availability. It works much the same way on defense. Just being present and being a yellow light while closing out on shooters (another ability LeBron is wildly underrated for, and one that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread) is actually what matters as far as being a consistent defensive team in the long run.

Not to mention the communication angle which LeBron has clear advantages over many of the people he's being compared to. Another thing that casual fans or just fans that are less knowledgeable as far as film study aren't going to really notice, but I specifically remember an ESPN article during one of the Cleveland Finals (maybe 2018) where JR Smith was quoted saying that LeBron's communicate on coverages led their team to being a step faster on defense.

So maybe if there's some plus minus stats showing his impact on defense but you don't think it's valid because your eye test tells you he's not active enough; there's a very good possibility that your eye test or weighting of the importance of certain actions (that don't necessarily show up in the box score or in other statistical compilations) is actually not in line with what matters in reality or what truly compounds defensively in the long run.

Or another example, LeBron being stuck on the 4th or 5th best offensive player is being used as a knock against him. But let's consider the possibility that this allows LeBron to blow up pick and roll actions in the paint so his big man can feel safer stepping up to contain lead ballhandlers on screens while their teammate recovers and not worrying about his mark getting behind him on a roll knowing that he's got LeBron behind him effectively able to guard 2 people by taking out the big man's roll threat and reliably closing back out to the shooter he's guarding (or just as likely, perfectly executing an X-out with a teammate where the other weak side defender takes the pass to his man and Lebron picks up the guy that was switched off of).

Not to mention he also provided strong rebounding for the wing position and many games providing big man level activity on the boards, and him being able to help off of corner men helps his team close possessions with boards and especially contested rebounds. But a lot of people aren't gonna see that and just say "hurr Durr Bron no guard #1 option he sukk!!11!'", and likely completely miss the idea that Bron is still exerting great defensive impact on the game no matter what position he's put in. But to see stuff like that in real time you really need to have a Keen eye for film, and is why I prefer being able to watch full game replays on my own time to see what's really happening in the breakdowns of some possessions.

From an RS impact perspective(looking at 2015-2017), his RAPM still looks crazy until 2018(looks better than just about anyone else including partial stuff from prime MJ, full stuff, from the likes of Shaq, Duncan, KG, ect), raw signals(probably more useful for historical comps) only really are matched by Kareem and Russell, looks the best in "stabilized" stuff like PIPM and AUPM, and is killing it in more granular stuff like synergy.

FWIW, there's a great thread here breaking down Lebron's offense:

Read on Twitter

This isn't to say Lebron couldn't have been better in 12/13(maybe his impact was suppressed by playing as a pf(tends to lower the defensive impact of wings) and playing with a very similar guy in Bosh), but I'd say the logical move is to raise 2013/2012 or hedge relative to the data as opposed to the ben taylory approach of tryign to curve down everything.

[dreamshake]

Yeah, I don't think there's much to support that, whether you go by granulars(synergy stuff for example), or look more broadly.

I'm cool with Synergy and impact stats, etc. but I also don't totally discount more traditional stats and my eyes. The scoring efficiency gap between '13 and '16 is huge. He looks way better in box-based metrics (PER, WS48, BPM, etc.) in '13. Yes, RAPM has them pretty close, but it also tells me he was even better in '09, which is a valid view, but not one I share). And yeah, I still feel like his night-to-night effort on defense was a step ahead of what it was by the Cavs years. That win streak was like a third of the season and he had his foot on the gas in a way I haven't seen since then. That doesn't mean I think he was coasting with Cleveland - I 100% believe he was still a very good defender.

[Jaivl]

Still #1, can't see why he'd drop.

[Dutchball97]

Impressive how a thread about LeBron gets turned into a Wilt > Russell **** within the first page by the guy who "definitely doesn't have anything against Russell despite only posting about how overrated Russell is".

[edgymnerch]

I had Jordan 1st but longevity was going to win out sometime so I decided to put LeBron #1 when he breaks one of the biggest records in the sport. As a person who dislikes him, I kept him #2 until the moment the shot went in. But yes, he's the GOAT now.

Just to be clear, he was going to overtake Jordan imo at the end of the seasonn but since he was so close to the record, I just decided to let that be the event that makes him the GOAT. A bit weird but eh haha

[ShaqAttac]

I had Jordan 1st but longevity was going to win out sometime so I decided to put LeBron #1 when he breaks one of the biggest records in the sport. As a person who dislikes him, I kept him #2 until the moment the shot went in. But yes, he's the GOAT now.

Just to be clear, he was going to overtake Jordan imo at the end of the seasonn but since he was so close to the record, I just decided to let that be the event that makes him the GOAT. A bit weird but eh haha

i wish it was making da yoffs...

[ardee]

I've had him number 1 since 2017 and every game he plays just keeps expanding the lead.