Knicks trade for Josh Hart

[bearadonisdna]

Mfers got kyrie Irving
Dlo, Beasley and Vanderbildt
We got josh hart.

Heck business wise team might be better missing playoffs just to keep the pick.

According to knicksverse , this summer the Knicks can still use their full allotment of their own picks, 4, in a trade so maybe it doesn’t matter,

[aq_ua]

So, the question is whose minutes Hart takes.

RJ: 34.9mpg
Grimes: 30.5mpg
IQ: 27.9mpg
Obi: 15.1mpg
Deuce: 13.1mpg

You can probably cut 5 mpg from RJ and Deuce becomes a "situational" player - so that creates roughly 18mpg. Assuming Thibs stays with Obi as the primary backup to Randle, rhe remaining minutes would need to come from Grimes and IQ, which is unfortunate.

I'd say 3 minutes from Grimes, 2 from IQ.

Grimes has been missing jumpers all over the place. That's probably legs.
Grimes has gone from a rookie season where he didn't play that much and didn't start to starting, playing 30 mpg and covering the other team's best scorer most of the time. I think he needs some minutes reduction and he'll actually be as statistically effective on offense because he'll make 2 more 3's a game.

Next year, Grimes will be better prepared to play 28-32 mpg as a starter for the entire season.

Knicks probably got Hart with an eye to keeping the flexibility options open regarding trading IQ, RJ or even Grimes.
They probably draft a PF with their pick so they have the flexibility to trade Obi. Or they use the MLE on someone for that role.
They could draft a PF and NOT trade Obi.
I just think this FO has operated at trying to have a certain amount of depth at each position (minus tall SFs) to keep trade options open, either for "the star" or flipping guys for picks. They've basically stated it. This isn't anything I've inferred. Maybe a little. It's absolutely stuff they've said or attributed to them.

I agree with that observation. It's interesting when you compare the shot chart of Josh Hart to RJ Barrett:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rj-barrett-shot-chart-by-season

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/josh-hart-shot-chart-by-season

They're quite similar if not identical. So basically Josh Hart is RJ with better defense and rebounding. It would certainly make sense that Hart would give the Knicks an immediate RJ replacement should they look to move him.

[HopelessKnick]

So, the question is whose minutes Hart takes.

RJ: 34.9mpg
Grimes: 30.5mpg
IQ: 27.9mpg
Obi: 15.1mpg
Deuce: 13.1mpg

You can probably cut 5 mpg from RJ and Deuce becomes a "situational" player - so that creates roughly 18mpg. Assuming Thibs stays with Obi as the primary backup to Randle, rhe remaining minutes would need to come from Grimes and IQ, which is unfortunate.

It's not unfortunate it's idiotic. You would have thought that this horrible FO learned something from the Cam Reddish situation but they somehow managed to semi-recreate it , just with the difference of giving up a better pick today.

MARK THESE WORDS: 3 months from now, when a historic deep draft is around the corner, and teams will be looking to get some player and draft picks are at a high value, we will be sitting on the 24th pick (Mavs pick) and have no room to improve really. Absolutely disastrous, idiotic, imbecelic move from a completely incompetent front office. The people cheering for this trade will be sitting at home and asking themselves what exactly Josh Hart did for us in those 30 games where he averaged 8points/6rebounds and bricked 3 point shots left and right.

[thebuzzardman]

Absolutely terrible terrible move. The other two "minor" moves of the night underline this FO's ineptitude. Let's break it down:

We trade for another undersized guard who will command major minutes and potentially disturb what was a nice balance between Brunson, McBride, Quickley and Grimes. Just when all 3 young player were playing solid and trending up, we bring another undersized guard in that will potentially mess things up. But worse than that--we essentially give up this year's first round draft pick, which projects to be in the 15-19 range for essentially a back-up role player that will force us to play a midget line-up of Brunson-Hart-Grimes at times. Absolutely idiotic. There is literally no way anyone in their right mind should trade a mid first round draft pick for a back-up guard struggling to get 10 points a night. Terrible!

Taking a look around the league on what teams acquired for a FRP:

Toronto filled a position of absolute need with a borderline top 10 Center and legitimate starter who gives you 13/10 in 28minutes for a protected 2024 FRP---so they essentially not only filled a position of absolute need, but also gave up a draft pick in a much weaker draft class while the Knicks acquired a bench player for a better draft choice. Idiotic, pure simply incompetence at play.

Lakers had a difficult choice to make because of the Lebron situation. Russell, Beasley and Vanderbilt are no world beaters at all, but for the Lakers they give them 2-3 starter. Assuming the Lakers will go with Russell-Beasley-Lebron-Vanderbilt-AD one can even argue that the Lakers got rid of Westbrook for 3 potential starters while surrendering one future FRP.

The idiot that Rose and the FO is we give up a valuable pick in one of the deepest draft in recent draft history for a 25 minute backup guard that can't shoot.

exaggerate much? Knicks won't be picking anywhere near 15
McBride is "ok" but needs development.
He can reduce RJ's minutes and Grimes, who hasn't hit a 3 in weeks it feels like. Bad legs.

Sucks they dealt a pick, they have the Mavs pick which will be where their will be, within a couple of places.

I wouldn't be harping on Poetl for 1st rounder as a better trade.

I still wish the Knicks moved on from Rose too, but he's essentially a player coach who doesn't play now.

[HopelessKnick]

Mfers got kyrie Irving
Dlo, Beasley and Vanderbildt
We got josh hart.

Heck business wise team might be better missing playoffs just to keep the pick.

According to knicksverse , this summer the Knicks can still use their full allotment of their own picks, 4, in a trade so maybe it doesn’t matter,

Exactly---here is to hoping that the Knicks DO indeed miss the playoffs. It would not only be funny as hell, it would also make this FO look as terrible as possible.

[thebuzzardman]

So, the question is whose minutes Hart takes.

RJ: 34.9mpg
Grimes: 30.5mpg
IQ: 27.9mpg
Obi: 15.1mpg
Deuce: 13.1mpg

You can probably cut 5 mpg from RJ and Deuce becomes a "situational" player - so that creates roughly 18mpg. Assuming Thibs stays with Obi as the primary backup to Randle, rhe remaining minutes would need to come from Grimes and IQ, which is unfortunate.

It's not unfortunate it's idiotic. You would have thought that this horrible FO learned something from the Cam Reddish situation but they somehow managed to semi-recreate it , just with the difference of giving up a better pick today.

MARK THESE WORDS: 3 months from now, when a historic deep draft is around the corner, and teams will be looking to get some player and draft picks are at a high value, we will be sitting on the 24th pick (Mavs pick) and have no room to improve really. Absolutely disastrous, idiotic, imbecelic move from a completely incompetent front office. The people cheering for this trade will be sitting at home and asking themselves what exactly Josh Hart did for us in those 30 games where he averaged 8points/6rebounds and bricked 3 point shots left and right.

Ah yes, the "Historic Deep draft"

It's like the 3rd one in 4 years.

Like the draft that yielded Suggs and Cade?
Or last years "historically deep draft"

Why is the next draft historic? That 18 year olds are allowed in it? Because they've been saying that for 3 years too.

[thebuzzardman]

Mfers got kyrie Irving
Dlo, Beasley and Vanderbildt
We got josh hart.

Heck business wise team might be better missing playoffs just to keep the pick.

According to knicksverse , this summer the Knicks can still use their full allotment of their own picks, 4, in a trade so maybe it doesn’t matter,

When you don't have talent to trade, you don't have talent to get.

Is what happens when the FO f*cks up draft after draft after draft.

Oh, and everyone here wants to hoard picks those deals cost picks.

[HarthorneWingo]

Where will Josh Hart’s minutes come from?

From Macri newsletter:

Will those minutes be taken evenly from RJ Barrett (averaging 34.9 minutes a game), Quentin Grimes (30.5 minutes) and Immanuel Quickley (27.9 minutes on the year, but 30.5 in the 14 games since he’s returned to a bench role after RJ came back from injury)? Or will someone get more of the brunt than the other two? And will Grimes still start? Or will Hart take his place despite the seemingly necessary injection of Q’s shooting into the first five?

[aq_ua]

Where will Josh Hart’s minutes come from?

From Macri newsletter:

Will those minutes be taken evenly from RJ Barrett (averaging 34.9 minutes a game), Quentin Grimes (30.5 minutes) and Immanuel Quickley (27.9 minutes on the year, but 30.5 in the 14 games since he’s returned to a bench role after RJ came back from injury)? Or will someone get more of the brunt than the other two? And will Grimes still start? Or will Hart take his place despite the seemingly necessary injection of Q’s shooting into the first five?

The only way Hart would start is if RJ is sent to the bench. RJ has played well with the bench unit, so it wouldn't be terrible from a basketball perspective. But, could you imagine RJ + Fornier + Rose all on the bench? That would be 3 of our top 6 contracts sitting on the bench.

[thebuzzardman]

So, the question is whose minutes Hart takes.

RJ: 34.9mpg
Grimes: 30.5mpg
IQ: 27.9mpg
Obi: 15.1mpg
Deuce: 13.1mpg

You can probably cut 5 mpg from RJ and Deuce becomes a "situational" player - so that creates roughly 18mpg. Assuming Thibs stays with Obi as the primary backup to Randle, rhe remaining minutes would need to come from Grimes and IQ, which is unfortunate.

I'd say 3 minutes from Grimes, 2 from IQ.

Grimes has been missing jumpers all over the place. That's probably legs.
Grimes has gone from a rookie season where he didn't play that much and didn't start to starting, playing 30 mpg and covering the other team's best scorer most of the time. I think he needs some minutes reduction and he'll actually be as statistically effective on offense because he'll make 2 more 3's a game.

Next year, Grimes will be better prepared to play 28-32 mpg as a starter for the entire season.

Knicks probably got Hart with an eye to keeping the flexibility options open regarding trading IQ, RJ or even Grimes.
They probably draft a PF with their pick so they have the flexibility to trade Obi. Or they use the MLE on someone for that role.
They could draft a PF and NOT trade Obi.
I just think this FO has operated at trying to have a certain amount of depth at each position (minus tall SFs) to keep trade options open, either for "the star" or flipping guys for picks. They've basically stated it. This isn't anything I've inferred. Maybe a little. It's absolutely stuff they've said or attributed to them.

I agree with that observation. It's interesting when you compare the shot chart of Josh Hart to RJ Barrett:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rj-barrett-shot-chart-by-season

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/josh-hart-shot-chart-by-season

They're quite similar if not identical. So basically Josh Hart is RJ with better defense and rebounding. It would certainly make sense that Hart would give the Knicks an immediate RJ replacement should they look to move him.

Correct. And it's not necessarily RJ. I think Hart has some good secondary guard passing skills. Minus the shooting, that sounds like IQ. He defends, cuts well, good all around game. Minus the shooting, sounds like Grimes.
Sort of opens up options.

Not a super tremendous move, but it's solid.

I don't know. Already the trader haters are out in force, and this usually is some disguised "tank brigade" sh*t or "everyone who doesn't win the championship is 1st, 2nd, 3rd losers etc" but you see the Knicks barely able to hold leads and get out talented a lot of nights and assume they couldn't use some help, some depth?
Yeah, I get it could be taller depth.

Let's repeat the FO own words. "We'll try to compete, build slowly, though the draft and FA, the right way, and have assets available to get in on discussions for star players"

I suppose beating the head against the wall when they do what they say they will do is fun, though.

[thebuzzardman]

RealGM Knicks: Where litigating the same arguments over and over is a way of life.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Hart will come off the bench at first. Someone has to go or sit.
If they can get a first for Obi then minutes open up. It will be more clear once the deadline passes.

They have to find minutes for him that make the trade worth doing. No way this turns into Cam/DNP-CD or Obi treatment. Thibs most likely wanted this kid for his defense/rebounding and not needing the ball.

Indian expect much and I am not a fan of the pick being ours but, if it helps get us the 5 seed, I'll live with it. Hoping we can sneak into the second Rd to lessen the pain.

[KnixinSix]

So, the question is whose minutes Hart takes.

RJ: 34.9mpg
Grimes: 30.5mpg
IQ: 27.9mpg
Obi: 15.1mpg
Deuce: 13.1mpg

You can probably cut 5 mpg from RJ and Deuce becomes a "situational" player - so that creates roughly 18mpg. Assuming Thibs stays with Obi as the primary backup to Randle, rhe remaining minutes would need to come from Grimes and IQ, which is unfortunate.

I'd say 3 minutes from Grimes, 2 from IQ.

Grimes has been missing jumpers all over the place. That's probably legs.
Grimes has gone from a rookie season where he didn't play that much and didn't start to starting, playing 30 mpg and covering the other team's best scorer most of the time. I think he needs some minutes reduction and he'll actually be as statistically effective on offense because he'll make 2 more 3's a game.

Next year, Grimes will be better prepared to play 28-32 mpg as a starter for the entire season.

Knicks probably got Hart with an eye to keeping the flexibility options open regarding trading IQ, RJ or even Grimes.
They probably draft a PF with their pick so they have the flexibility to trade Obi. Or they use the MLE on someone for that role.
They could draft a PF and NOT trade Obi.
I just think this FO has operated at trying to have a certain amount of depth at each position (minus tall SFs) to keep trade options open, either for "the star" or flipping guys for picks. They've basically stated it. This isn't anything I've inferred. Maybe a little. It's absolutely stuff they've said or attributed to them.

I agree with that observation. It's interesting when you compare the shot chart of Josh Hart to RJ Barrett:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rj-barrett-shot-chart-by-season

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/josh-hart-shot-chart-by-season

They're quite similar if not identical. So basically Josh Hart is RJ with better defense and rebounding. It would certainly make sense that Hart would give the Knicks an immediate RJ replacement should they look to move him.

Great analysis but keep in mind he does it with higher efficiency and better defense (RJs D has regressed of late).

[thebuzzardman]

Hart will come off the bench at first. Someone has to go or sit.
If they can get a first for Obi then minutes open up. It will be more clear once the deadline passes.

They have to find minutes for him that make the trade worth doing. No way this turns into Cam/DNP-CD or Obi treatment. Thibs most likely wanted this kid for his defense/rebounding and not needing the ball.

Indian expect much and I am not a fan of the pick being ours but, if it helps get us the 5 seed, I'll live with it. Hoping we can sneak into the second Rd to lessen the pain.

This is by position, but the rotations won't be strictly this:

Brunson/IQ
Grimes/Hart
RJ/Hart
Randle/Obi (unless traded - doubtful, they aren't going to use RJ as backup 4)
Mitch/iShart

That's 9. McBride is situational.
MAYBE Thibs goes 10 (he won't) and McBride is in the PG situation. I can't see it. Thibs is on the record stating he likes how subs work with 9 guys.

[HopelessKnick]

Absolutely terrible terrible move. The other two "minor" moves of the night underline this FO's ineptitude. Let's break it down:

We trade for another undersized guard who will command major minutes and potentially disturb what was a nice balance between Brunson, McBride, Quickley and Grimes. Just when all 3 young player were playing solid and trending up, we bring another undersized guard in that will potentially mess things up. But worse than that--we essentially give up this year's first round draft pick, which projects to be in the 15-19 range for essentially a back-up role player that will force us to play a midget line-up of Brunson-Hart-Grimes at times. Absolutely idiotic. There is literally no way anyone in their right mind should trade a mid first round draft pick for a back-up guard struggling to get 10 points a night. Terrible!

Taking a look around the league on what teams acquired for a FRP:

Toronto filled a position of absolute need with a borderline top 10 Center and legitimate starter who gives you 13/10 in 28minutes for a protected 2024 FRP---so they essentially not only filled a position of absolute need, but also gave up a draft pick in a much weaker draft class while the Knicks acquired a bench player for a better draft choice. Idiotic, pure simply incompetence at play.

Lakers had a difficult choice to make because of the Lebron situation. Russell, Beasley and Vanderbilt are no world beaters at all, but for the Lakers they give them 2-3 starter. Assuming the Lakers will go with Russell-Beasley-Lebron-Vanderbilt-AD one can even argue that the Lakers got rid of Westbrook for 3 potential starters while surrendering one future FRP.

The idiot that Rose and the FO is we give up a valuable pick in one of the deepest draft in recent draft history for a 25 minute backup guard that can't shoot.

exaggerate much? Knicks won't be picking anywhere near 15
McBride is "ok" but needs development.
He can reduce RJ's minutes and Grimes, who hasn't hit a 3 in weeks it feels like. Bad legs.

Sucks they dealt a pick, they have the Mavs pick which will be where their will be, within a couple of places.

I wouldn't be harping on Poetl for 1st rounder as a better trade.

I still wish the Knicks moved on from Rose too, but he's essentially a player coach who doesn't play now.

I don't know where you get your information from but Grimes has hit 40% from 3 over the past 4 games and 33% from 3 in a weaker shooting January. So what Grimes shot in a bad january would be a career month by Hart. It's absolute false information that Grimes can't hit 3s anymore...in fact he only had 2 out of the past 20 games where he didn't hit a 3.

Valuewise: Poeltl >>>>>>> Hart (and the Raptors gave up the worse asset for the higher value guy). Terrible management.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Hart will come off the bench at first. Someone has to go or sit.
If they can get a first for Obi then minutes open up. It will be more clear once the deadline passes.

They have to find minutes for him that make the trade worth doing. No way this turns into Cam/DNP-CD or Obi treatment. Thibs most likely wanted this kid for his defense/rebounding and not needing the ball.

Indian expect much and I am not a fan of the pick being ours but, if it helps get us the 5 seed, I'll live with it. Hoping we can sneak into the second Rd to lessen the pain.

This is by position, but the rotations won't be strictly this:

Brunson/IQ
Grimes/Hart
RJ/Hart
Randle/Obi (unless traded - doubtful, they aren't going to use RJ as backup 4)
Mitch/iShart

That's 9. McBride is situational.
MAYBE Thibs goes 10 (he won't) and McBride is in the PG situation. I can't see it. Thibs is on the record stating he likes how subs work with 9 guys.

Thibs would use Sims as the backup four. Thibs doesn't want Obi. Let's end the charade if we can get decent value for him. Those minutes are needed to make sense of this trade IMO.

Or Sims and Deuce disappear again.

We shall see. I really want Thibs fired!

[HopelessKnick]

I'd say 3 minutes from Grimes, 2 from IQ.

Grimes has been missing jumpers all over the place. That's probably legs.
Grimes has gone from a rookie season where he didn't play that much and didn't start to starting, playing 30 mpg and covering the other team's best scorer most of the time. I think he needs some minutes reduction and he'll actually be as statistically effective on offense because he'll make 2 more 3's a game.

Next year, Grimes will be better prepared to play 28-32 mpg as a starter for the entire season.

Knicks probably got Hart with an eye to keeping the flexibility options open regarding trading IQ, RJ or even Grimes.
They probably draft a PF with their pick so they have the flexibility to trade Obi. Or they use the MLE on someone for that role.
They could draft a PF and NOT trade Obi.
I just think this FO has operated at trying to have a certain amount of depth at each position (minus tall SFs) to keep trade options open, either for "the star" or flipping guys for picks. They've basically stated it. This isn't anything I've inferred. Maybe a little. It's absolutely stuff they've said or attributed to them.

I agree with that observation. It's interesting when you compare the shot chart of Josh Hart to RJ Barrett:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rj-barrett-shot-chart-by-season

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/josh-hart-shot-chart-by-season

They're quite similar if not identical. So basically Josh Hart is RJ with better defense and rebounding. It would certainly make sense that Hart would give the Knicks an immediate RJ replacement should they look to move him.

Correct. And it's not necessarily RJ. I think Hart has some good secondary guard passing skills. Minus the shooting, that sounds like IQ. He defends, cuts well, good all around game. Minus the shooting, sounds like Grimes.
Sort of opens up options.

Not a super tremendous move, but it's solid.

I don't know. Already the trader haters are out in force, and this usually is some disguised "tank brigade" sh*t or "everyone who doesn't win the championship is 1st, 2nd, 3rd losers etc" but you see the Knicks barely able to hold leads and get out talented a lot of nights and assume they couldn't use some help, some depth?
Yeah, I get it could be taller depth.

Let's repeat the FO own words. "We'll try to compete, build slowly, though the draft and FA, the right way, and have assets available to get in on discussions for star players"

I suppose beating the head against the wall when they do what they say they will do is fun, though.

That sounds exactly what the Knicks have been trying to do since the Patrick Ewing era----always trying to somehow compete and be in the discussion for star-players through trades or free agency (whatever that means). It is the blueprint for many 35-38 win seasons to come. But hey maybe we will be in the discussion for the next disgruntled star player---because that is the absolute ceiling of this FO and franchise--being in the discussion.

I can't wait to come back to this discussion 3 months from now when the Celtics, Bucks or Sixers have completed their first round sweep and we are looking at the 24th pick of the draft while the Blazers are sitting on the 15-18th pick laughing off their asses.

[E-Balla]

Y'all already know how I feel. Basically we traded trash and a protected 1st that'll probably end up as 4 seconds for a 10/8/4 guy in Josh Barkley. He's already got the Nova connection with Brunson, and he's a tough player.

He can't shoot, that's an issue (we love guys with no jumper) but outside of that he's amazing. And his defense this year has been extraordinary. IDK how big a role he'll have but I'm ready to see.

you think we are now losing the play-in?

I thought we were winning the play in before this trade. Now I think we won't make it, especially if Mitch can get healthy. Brooklyn is about to start tumbling in the standings as well.

[mpharris36]

Y'all already know how I feel. Basically we traded trash and a protected 1st that'll probably end up as 4 seconds for a 10/8/4 guy in Josh Barkley. He's already got the Nova connection with Brunson, and he's a tough player.

He can't shoot, that's an issue (we love guys with no jumper) but outside of that he's amazing. And his defense this year has been extraordinary. IDK how big a role he'll have but I'm ready to see.

you think we are now losing the play-in?

I thought we were winning the play in before this trade. Now I think we won't make it, especially if Mitch can get healthy. Brooklyn is about to start tumbling in the standings as well.

Wait I think you mean the opposite. If you think Brooklyn starts tumbling and Mitch will get healthy isn't it more likely we make the playoffs?

[ScienceOfLosing]

Absolutely terrible terrible move. The other two "minor" moves of the night underline this FO's ineptitude. Let's break it down:

We trade for another undersized guard who will command major minutes and potentially disturb what was a nice balance between Brunson, McBride, Quickley and Grimes. Just when all 3 young player were playing solid and trending up, we bring another undersized guard in that will potentially mess things up. But worse than that--we essentially give up this year's first round draft pick, which projects to be in the 15-19 range for essentially a back-up role player that will force us to play a midget line-up of Brunson-Hart-Grimes at times. Absolutely idiotic. There is literally no way anyone in their right mind should trade a mid first round draft pick for a back-up guard struggling to get 10 points a night. Terrible!

Taking a look around the league on what teams acquired for a FRP:

Toronto filled a position of absolute need with a borderline top 10 Center and legitimate starter who gives you 13/10 in 28minutes for a protected 2024 FRP---so they essentially not only filled a position of absolute need, but also gave up a draft pick in a much weaker draft class while the Knicks acquired a bench player for a better draft choice. Idiotic, pure simply incompetence at play.

Lakers had a difficult choice to make because of the Lebron situation. Russell, Beasley and Vanderbilt are no world beaters at all, but for the Lakers they give them 2-3 starter. Assuming the Lakers will go with Russell-Beasley-Lebron-Vanderbilt-AD one can even argue that the Lakers got rid of Westbrook for 3 potential starters while surrendering one future FRP.

The idiot that Rose and the FO is we give up a valuable pick in one of the deepest draft in recent draft history for a 25 minute backup guard that can't shoot.

Yeah, not in favor of this move, especially for our 1st in a deep draft.
If there isn‘t a followup move to bring us some balance, then it is like a return to the past bad asset management.

Thibs influence here is slowly going to destroy us from acquiring solid young players.
And the day isn‘t over yet, maybe we can manage to get rid of more young players and draft picks for this year.