Knicks trade for Josh Hart

[god shammgod]

And Thibs is going to sample Hart for us to miss the playoffs. Hart will determine if he wants to stay base on the minutes giving to him the remainder of the season or he walks out but I see Thibs playing Hart to appease Leon Rose’s and FO’s mistakes.

he's gonna play hart because he likes guys who are good at defense

[Synciere]

You are right unfortunately....the Knicks are the type of team that pays a mid first round pick for a 8points/6rebounds backup, undersized guard....you know the type of team that has had no success for over 2 decades and is the worst or second worst team since Ewing.

In a vacuum I agree with you that a guy like Hart is not worth a first, even protected, but there is a lot of recent precedent as far as that being the going rate for a 3and D wing man like him. There's the Melton to Philly deal where he got traded for the 23rd pick last year. There's also Royce O'Neale who was traded last offseason for a first. I'm sure there are others. Also, though he's just 6'5", Hart is really just an undersized SF.

I disagree. Hart is not a 3 and D guy. He does not have a 3. Portland fans say he was recently even passing up wide open threes to the point teammates were giving him looks. He is a poor shooter. If you look at his shooting motion he shoots the same type of unbalanced type shots like Randle. He is no better than Barrett, maybe even worse and more reluctant to shoot the three. O'Neal is a 39% career three point shooter and a 6'6/230lbs SF that can guard the 2, 3 and 4. Melton plays the PG/SG spots but has been shooting close to 39% on average over the last 3 seasons. Neither of them are world beaters and if other teams overpaid for mediocre role players, does it mean we should do the same?

Fair point that Hart doesn't shoot well, but what he lacks in shooting, he makes up for in playmaking and rebounding, things guys like O'Neale and Melton don't do anywhere near as well as Hart does. So while the skillset is different, the value of a what should be a late round first seems to be on par IMO.

[knicks94]

If Hart regains his jumpshot he can be Hubert Davis 2.0

[bronxknicksfan1]

Burks > Hart.

I’m sure we’ll all like Hart but come on this cant be the only thing we’re doin. Not a star trade but not a youth move either. Hes going to cut into Grimes, IQ, and RJs minutes a bit.

I’m curious how it all works out, but Hart > Burks

[HopelessKnick]

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Yes, on a team that was roughly pretty bad defensively with Portland...he stood out as a good defender.

Don't bother, people will try to search for any possible stat to make them feel better about giving up a mid first rounder for a career backup 8point/6rebound guy.

[rajajackal]

The more I think about it the more I dislike this trade. Mainly cause of Deuce! He was just starting to figure it out and now he's going to be demoted to the bench. Did we really need to upgrade his rotation assignment of playing 10 mpg? This trade just does nothing. Hart really adds nothing to what we already have. He's pretty much just going to just clog the rotation without providing much of an upgrade.

This only makes sense if you trade RJ or Grimes.

don't think of it as upgrading deuce's 10 minutes, think of it as acquiring somebody who can play more minutes to spell our starters more. there's also a chance that rj's on the way out

[nedleeds]

That Charlotte pick is lotto protected through 2025 and then it would become two seconds. With the way that franchise is being run that pick is probably never a first rounder. Our pick is lotto protected so even if we miss the playoffs (still very plausible), we wouldn’t have given up a first for Hart.

But that's not how picks work as assets. It's still a potential 1st round pick and can be packaged and traded and has moderate value. If you want to drag the timeline left and right we gave up

9th Pick 2018 Draft
Charlotte future 1st
Knicks 2023 1st

for Josh Hart. Which not on the scale of Gobert or the raping the Nets just gave Phoenix but it's a horrific trade.

The sole reason Josh Hart is targeted is because he's a CAA client up for extension. Leon Rose works for CAA. We'll extend Hart (like Randle ... who we extended early to get CAA paid) for no basketball reason and Sam Rose will get his new Lambo.

I know how picks work as assets, but you still have to take into account that the value of the protected assets take a hit when you factor in the protection and the team that owns the pick, in this case, Charlotte, who has shown a recent history of not sniffing the playoffs. You're saying we traded the 9th pick in the 2018 draft, Charlotte future 1st, and Knicks 2023 first, when that sounds 1000x worse than saying we traded Kevin Knox, a lotto protected Charlotte first which only has two years left of 1st round possibilities, and a lotto protected Knicks 1st. We still have the Dallas pick, all our picks, the Washington, Detroit, and Milwaukee picks which have much lower protections than the Charlotte pick we gave up for Reddish.

Also, I get the CAA thing, but two guys you mentioned, Brunson and Randle are all-stars, so there must have been some basketball reason to get those guys.

I mean. To get the 7th seed I guess. I've seen the Knicks in two finals, I could give a f'ing dry fart about the 7th seed. There is a 0% chance of a finals with this roster, and this roster is over the cap and has 3 long deals.

This front office has just chased it's tail and reshuffled the mediocre deck chairs to get more CAA contracts on the roster. Just keep Burks and nothing changes. They wave their hands and do things but none of it matters in any real way, but they look busy, this is typical of clueless mid level management chaffe.

If they literally did *nothing* with the roster since taking over. Just executed our 1sts and drafted best player available, and let contracts expire we'd be in a vastly better spot. Imagine that, if you just slept at work and your employer would be far better off.

[god shammgod]

The more I think about it the more I dislike this trade. Mainly cause of Deuce! He was just starting to figure it out and now he's going to be demoted to the bench. Did we really need to upgrade his rotation assignment of playing 10 mpg? This trade just does nothing. Hart really adds nothing to what we already have. He's pretty much just going to just clog the rotation without providing much of an upgrade.

This only makes sense if you trade RJ or Grimes.

don't think of it as upgrading deuce's 10 minutes, think of it as acquiring somebody who can play more minutes to spell our starters more. there's also a chance that rj's on the way out[/quote]

more and more i keep thinking we're heading there

[rajajackal]

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Yes, on a team that was roughly pretty bad defensively with Portland...he stood out as a good defender.

Don't bother, people will try to search for any possible stat to make them feel better about giving up a mid first rounder for a career backup 8point/6rebound guy.

i'm a cam fan and i don't like giving up the pick at all. but i do like the acquisition in a vacuum for this roster. sadly there was some sort of beef between thibs and cam and the 1st is the price we paid for it. we should really move on to a younger, more innovative coach this offseason

[TrueWarrior]

Burks > Hart.

I’m sure we’ll all like Hart but come on this cant be the only thing we’re doin. Not a star trade but not a youth move either. Hes going to cut into Grimes, IQ, and RJs minutes a bit.

I’m curious how it all works out, but Hart > Burks

Its a wash at most.

Burks leads the Pistons in that RAPTOR stat too. Hes having a great season for them. Better on offense than Hart but not quite as good on D or on the boards. Burks is bigger than Hart too, but Hart does play bigger than he looks.

Overall this is a Mid Move, but Ill reserve more judgement to see if we do anything else.

[HopelessKnick]

Leon Rose is not only a snake oil salesman, he is the definition of a gutless coward. He will continue making these very minor moves as a sort of self preservation strategy. These are the type of moves where people will be lulled into thinking some major move is going to come down the road. If these types of moves do not pan out (which they won't) , they are not gonna be big enough failures where people will call outright for his head. It will be "yeah sure he wasted a pick on Reddish, he wasted a pick on Hart etc." not big enough offenses for people to see and realize his utter incompetence and cowardice. Instead of throwing his trash ass out right away, he'll extend his stay for another couple years....and people will be like "yeah he still hasn't made that major major blunder and that superstar is right around the corner"----people won't even consciously realize that he wasted 4 years building a 35-40 win team that gets demolished in the play-in or first round. People will say "that's progress, we have made the playoffs 2 out of 4 seasons and won 37 games the other time, we almost made the play-in....and the next superstar is probably gonna consider us because we are solid....we seem to be always in the discussion for that superstar"----all the while that trashcan Leon Rose steals the money and fills his pockets.

This guy reeks of utter and complete incompetence. He has no clue or plan what he is doing. The only thing he is interested in is camouflaging his incompetence and extending his stay, trying to keep people from realizing that he is a complete fraud.

[HopelessKnick]

Burks > Hart.

I’m sure we’ll all like Hart but come on this cant be the only thing we’re doin. Not a star trade but not a youth move either. Hes going to cut into Grimes, IQ, and RJs minutes a bit.

I’m curious how it all works out, but Hart > Burks

Its a wash at most.

Burks leads the Pistons in that RAPTOR stat too. Hes having a great season for them. Better on offense than Hart but not quite as good on D or on the boards. Burks is bigger than Hart too, but Hart does play bigger than he looks.

Overall this is a Mid Move, but Ill reserve more judgement to see if we do anything else.

Which we won't do---guaranteed.

[Fat Kat]

Good thread

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[Polk377]

Good thread

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Unless RJ figures out how to play better defense around picks, it looks like Hart will be taking his 4th quarter minutes.

[Oscirus]

Smaller stakes deals, smaller drawbacks. At worst if this doesn't work out we lose a non lottery pick or 4 2nds. We don't resign Hart.

At worst if KD doesn't work out (likely) we suck until 2030. If Mitchell doesn't work out we repeat the Melo years.

It's the Morey school of team building. Acquire easier to get but still positive value contracts, middling picks, and stay around .500 until the chance for a star that will actually make a big difference comes along. Harden or bust.

yeah but if we don't pick a direction we kinda stay middling. Either break it up and tank or go for a star. The middle ground very rarely wins down the road outside of making us competitive. The only person that really wins is Dolan because he can stay raising ticket prices with the knicks never having any championship asperations.

Statistically speaking that's not true. Look at the Pels, they were middling when they got Zion and were able to flip the switch to contention. The Grizzlies were the same with Ja. The Nets were middling when they went all out for KD and Kyrie. Clippers were middling when they got Kawhi and PG13. The Raptors were middling when they got Kawhi.

I think none of the big deals that have happened recently have been worth it. I'm happy they stayed firm and didn't trade away everything for Mitchell for example. He's great but does he bring us a ring? Doubt it. If we're going all out like that the only way it's worth it is if the player will be an MVP level guy for at least 3 years for us. That's also why I want to pass on KD, no longevity there. You think we can get a team together midseason and contend with one off-season for everyone to gel before KD starts aging more?

So we're either relying on winning the lottery or getting an elite free agent? Thats alotta luck

[K_ick_God]

Maybe the Knicks will have a mental edge: a group of hard-nosed players, even Randle perhaps because he's gone through the wringer mentally.

[Galvationknicks]

We have his bird rights doubt he'll leave

[KnicksNext]

You guys should know by now this FO doesn't give a flying f*ck about the draft.

You wasted months and months in the draft thread (again) talking about all the players and possibilities to (move up? lol). With the Dallas pick losing value (most likely), we'll MAYBE add another rookie with like the 23rd pick or something. Another role player (if we're lucky).

[robillionaire]

You guys should know by now this FO doesn't give a flying f*ck about the draft.

You wasted months and months in the draft thread (again) talking about all the players and possibilities to (move up? lol). With the Dallas pick losing value (most likely), we'll MAYBE add another rookie with like the 23rd pick or something. Another role player (if we're lucky).

They’ll probably trade that Dallas pick too. I haven’t wasted my time thinking much about the draft the past couple years. Turned out to be a wise decision!

[KnicksNext]

yeah but if we don't pick a direction we kinda stay middling. Either break it up and tank or go for a star. The middle ground very rarely wins down the road outside of making us competitive. The only person that really wins is Dolan because he can stay raising ticket prices with the knicks never having any championship asperations.

Statistically speaking that's not true. Look at the Pels, they were middling when they got Zion and were able to flip the switch to contention. The Grizzlies were the same with Ja. The Nets were middling when they went all out for KD and Kyrie. Clippers were middling when they got Kawhi and PG13. The Raptors were middling when they got Kawhi.

I think none of the big deals that have happened recently have been worth it. I'm happy they stayed firm and didn't trade away everything for Mitchell for example. He's great but does he bring us a ring? Doubt it. If we're going all out like that the only way it's worth it is if the player will be an MVP level guy for at least 3 years for us. That's also why I want to pass on KD, no longevity there. You think we can get a team together midseason and contend with one off-season for everyone to gel before KD starts aging more?

ehh...Memphis and NOP were still lottery teams that were 30 win teams that got lucky in the lottery to jump start themselves into contention. We are building a 40ish type win team that will never be in the lottery to get lucky.

We are still basically banking on trading for a superstar...because we have played ourselves out of drafting a difference maker.

Most likely the end result here is that Hart plays solidly for us...he opts out...we resign him to a 16ish MM deal for a 3-4 years moving forward.

Then our roster is capped out with Brunson/Randle/RJ/Hart/Mitch making a lot of money. Then we will probably extend IQ too. Our picks will continue to lose value since they will be outside of the lottery so I am still very concerned this regime has a clear direction.

Solid short breakdown, thanks Mpharris. This is what we're looking at, so you need to decide if that's good or not..

Like getting hart in isolation isn't a bad move. But still there is a roster glut of good but not great players on this team. I really need to see a follow up deal of some sorts because trading for a decent rotational player without a rotational player going out doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

Obi value will continue to depreciate where we probably end up trading him for a couple 2nds in the offseason or something like that.

Just like they did with Cam...this regime sure knows how to tank players values.