Knicks trade for Josh Hart

[KnicksNext]

When Leon aka the fat pig was hired it was said "he got the connections, he'll get the stars, he is da ****"----3 years later:

He tampered and threw every shady move he had to bring Brunson home (which granted was a good move but could have easily backfired harshly if the NBA decided to punish the Knicks more severely--like multiple FRPs so he lucked out)

Then he got us Bullock, Noel, Fournier, Burks (all on mediocre or bad deals), Hartenstein and now Hart. He drafted Obi who was subsequently buried on the bench. Traded an FRP for the right to bench Cam for 1,5 years.

His tenure has turned into an absolute desaster---not better than any of his predecessors----this pig is a snake oil salesman. He got nothing, no connections, is not competent, cannot make any beneficial trades. He is a purely incompetent imbecile.

Can't wait to hear the 'positive' counter arguments to this from Team H0mer! Although I do like Hart.. have to continue to throw that in there. But was it really worth it? He's 28 and we're gonna have to shell out another decent sized contract for a role player? Because he is a role player, obviously.

[cgmw]

Shoulda just drafted Mikal. Then we wouldn't need to trade Knox, who started this whole cycle with us ending up with Hart.

Why is Perry still around again?

Fact: Had the Knicks drafted Mikal or any of these "coulda woulda shoulda" picks, they just would have buried him behind a veteran Free Agent or trade target. Kinda like how Grimes is about to lose his spot to Hart. And Deuce is going to be out of the rotation completely. Same story as it ever was.

Knicks are pretty hellbent as an organization to use the draft for the exclusive purpose of trading for or freeing up cap space to sign veterans.

[KnicksNext]

This move is the FO/Thibs saying we're a lot 'closer' to being in the top echelon than we really are. This is a move that a team who only needs to make one or two more small to mid moves to get them in contention make. That's not us, but whatever.

I do like Hart in a vacuum, but I'm sick and tired of punting in the draft every year. I mean, wtf man? Is there a FO out there that hates drafting players more than this FO??

The LA Rams

But they won the Superbowl so it was it worth it for them. Us, umm, well..

[TheGreenArrow]

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[KnicksNext]

This move is the FO/Thibs saying we're a lot 'closer' to being in the top echelon than we really are. This is a move that a team who only needs to make one or two more small to mid moves to get them in contention make. That's not us, but whatever.

I do like Hart in a vacuum, but I'm sick and tired of punting in the draft every year. I mean, wtf man? Is there a FO out there that hates drafting players more than this FO??

This is an incredibly odd take considering 5 of the team's 9 man rotation consists of players drafted by the front office in only 3 years.

They punted literally one draft pick.

Yeah, okay dude. Do I really need to explain what I meant? Where is our lottery pick from last year? Where will our 1st round pick from this year be? Where did we draft 2 years ago (traded down). Why do I have to break this down for you when everyone else seems to understand?

[KnicksNext]

This move is the FO/Thibs saying we're a lot 'closer' to being in the top echelon than we really are. This is a move that a team who only needs to make one or two more small to mid moves to get them in contention make. That's not us, but whatever.

I do like Hart in a vacuum, but I'm sick and tired of punting in the draft every year. I mean, wtf man? Is there a FO out there that hates drafting players more than this FO??

We really aren't that far away. 6th in offensive rating, 10th in Net Rating. We have 2 guys that can carry the load on a night to night basis putting up all star level play and a 3rd guy who can get hot for stretches. They need complimentary pieces better than what we have now but that is doable. Hart is a good add that helps. Knicks can and have competed hard against all teams this season. If the Heat could make the finals in 2020 with that team, I don't see why the Knicks wouldn't be able to make a push with this team.

From what, though? A first round exit? How many more wins did this secure us for the year? How many more wins will we have in the playoffs this year? This move does absolutely nothing in terms of moving the needle in the direction of advancing in the playoffs. He's a really good role player but not enough to change the outcome of a series. IMO.

[cgmw]

This move is the FO/Thibs saying we're a lot 'closer' to being in the top echelon than we really are. This is a move that a team who only needs to make one or two more small to mid moves to get them in contention make. That's not us, but whatever.

I do like Hart in a vacuum, but I'm sick and tired of punting in the draft every year. I mean, wtf man? Is there a FO out there that hates drafting players more than this FO??

This is an incredibly odd take considering 5 of the team's 9 man rotation consists of players drafted by the front office in only 3 years.

They punted literally one draft pick.

Yeah, okay dude. Do I really need to explain what I meant? Where is our lottery pick from last year? Where will our 1st round pick from this year be? Where did we draft 2 years ago (traded down). Why do I have to break this down for you when everyone else seems to understand?

And it's not just Leon. It's been this way since 1985.

While it's great to see RJ, Obi, IQ, Mitch, Grimes, and Deuce get to develop a bit, their primary role/purpose remains exactly the same as all Knick future draft capital -- place-holders for Leon's eventual maneuver for an established star.

The biggest thing that's changed is Dolan got a front-row seat to watch the Hindenburg dismantling of his wet-dream team in Brooklyn. Leon now has more room to wait before he trades all these kids and picks.

[KnicksNext]

I hate to harp on this but I'm getting more pissed as I think about it..

Why can't we build a mid roster and ALSO continue to draft young players with future potential in the draft? How can we EVER get a franchise player in here if we never even take a shot at getting lucky in the draft?

[KnicksNext]

Booker and KD gone in one move, so that ends those conversations.

So, who are we left with now? KAT as a our future franchise player? Who else is there?

[moocow007]

I agree he’s a great glue guy but we held on to assets so we don’t trade for a superstar just so we can trade those assets in smaller deals for glue guys and role players. Meh

Smaller stakes deals, smaller drawbacks. At worst if this doesn't work out we lose a non lottery pick or 4 2nds. We don't resign Hart.

At worst if KD doesn't work out (likely) we suck until 2030. If Mitchell doesn't work out we repeat the Melo years.

It's the Morey school of team building. Acquire easier to get but still positive value contracts, middling picks, and stay around .500 until the chance for a star that will actually make a big difference comes along. Harden or bust.

yeah but if we don't pick a direction we kinda stay middling. Either break it up and tank or go for a star. The middle ground very rarely wins down the road outside of making us competitive. The only person that really wins is Dolan because he can stay raising ticket prices with the knicks never having any championship asperations.

That's exactly it. If they are going to insist on Randle being the no.1 and considering that they chose to trade a lottery pick for a soon to be 27 year old PG the direction seems pretty much set. You have yourself about 2 year window to build a serious contender (after you get to that level you still want to have 3 or so years of peak competitiveness). Gathering all these "assets" but then either not willing or able to use it to get the guys that can make you contenders now would be a failure and should be an indication that maybe the proper direction is to rebuild the traditional way (like most Knick fans have been asking for since they traded Ewing). Another strong example of Dolan's failures as an owner. In this once again going with the name instead of the track record.

[Polk377]

This move is the FO/Thibs saying we're a lot 'closer' to being in the top echelon than we really are. This is a move that a team who only needs to make one or two more small to mid moves to get them in contention make. That's not us, but whatever.

I do like Hart in a vacuum, but I'm sick and tired of punting in the draft every year. I mean, wtf man? Is there a FO out there that hates drafting players more than this FO??

We really aren't that far away. 6th in offensive rating, 10th in Net Rating. We have 2 guys that can carry the load on a night to night basis putting up all star level play and a 3rd guy who can get hot for stretches. They need complimentary pieces better than what we have now but that is doable. Hart is a good add that helps. Knicks can and have competed hard against all teams this season. If the Heat could make the finals in 2020 with that team, I don't see why the Knicks wouldn't be able to make a push with this team.

From what, though? A first round exit? How many more wins did this secure us for the year? How many more wins will we have in the playoffs this year? This move does absolutely nothing in terms of moving the needle in the direction of advancing in the playoffs. He's a really good role player but not enough to change the outcome of a series. IMO.

Well your opinion doesn't really mean much to me

[thebuzzardman]

I agree with that observation. It's interesting when you compare the shot chart of Josh Hart to RJ Barrett:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rj-barrett-shot-chart-by-season

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/josh-hart-shot-chart-by-season

They're quite similar if not identical. So basically Josh Hart is RJ with better defense and rebounding. It would certainly make sense that Hart would give the Knicks an immediate RJ replacement should they look to move him.

Correct. And it's not necessarily RJ. I think Hart has some good secondary guard passing skills. Minus the shooting, that sounds like IQ. He defends, cuts well, good all around game. Minus the shooting, sounds like Grimes.
Sort of opens up options.

Not a super tremendous move, but it's solid.

I don't know. Already the trader haters are out in force, and this usually is some disguised "tank brigade" sh*t or "everyone who doesn't win the championship is 1st, 2nd, 3rd losers etc" but you see the Knicks barely able to hold leads and get out talented a lot of nights and assume they couldn't use some help, some depth?
Yeah, I get it could be taller depth.

Let's repeat the FO own words. "We'll try to compete, build slowly, though the draft and FA, the right way, and have assets available to get in on discussions for star players"

I suppose beating the head against the wall when they do what they say they will do is fun, though.

That sounds exactly what the Knicks have been trying to do since the Patrick Ewing era----always trying to somehow compete and be in the discussion for star-players through trades or free agency (whatever that means). It is the blueprint for many 35-38 win seasons to come. But hey maybe we will be in the discussion for the next disgruntled star player---because that is the absolute ceiling of this FO and franchise--being in the discussion.

I can't wait to come back to this discussion 3 months from now when the Celtics, Bucks or Sixers have completed their first round sweep and we are looking at the 24th pick of the draft while the Blazers are sitting on the 15-18th pick laughing off their asses.

I'm under no illusions the Knicks are anything but a first round sweep before or after this move. Still pays to try and get better.
And no, the Knicks won't be picking 15th or anywhere in the lottery.

[god shammgod]

Booker and KD gone in one move, so that ends those conversations.

So, who are we left with now? KAT as a our future franchise player? Who else is there?

you're the 2nd person who brought up kat today........i wanna burn this place to the ground

[KnicksNext]

We're gonna have to re-sign this guy, yea?

Yep. Add another to the list of big contracts we'll dole out to players who are not winning us a chip anytime soon.

[RHODEY]

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[moocow007]

As far as Josh Hart goes...

He's a heck of a player so adding him definitely will help. But it's not going to move the Knicks up into the top tier. Also, $12 million for Josh Hart is great value (when we look at players as assets). Josh Hart at $16 million, 17 million, 18 million (who knows) is going to lessen his value as an asset. Same thing with RJ Barret and what happened to him as an asset. RJ on a rookie contract letting him play out and prove his value on the open market? Value. RJ Barrett locked unnecessarily into that extension? Lowers his value as an asset.

Every player is an asset. Every pick is an asset. The value of the asset changes not only based on their play but also on their contract.

[thebuzzardman]

I think we could have acquired better assets if we held onto the pick and traded it during draft day.

Yeah. That's what I don't like about the trade. We trade out of or backwards in every damn draft. I'm not sure I like this trade at all but, he has to offer more than 3 bench players. The pick worries me though. Was it really worth this pick? Is he even worth the player option he is due? The fact that Cam is going to start for POR, do they know something we don't?

The contract and the pick potential/value make me worry that this is another mistake by the FO. I can't wait to see how they fit him in.

I’m a fan of this trade for no better reason than it puts the Draft Thread out of its misery before it ever gets started.

There’s very few things more pitiful than this board arguing for literally 700+ pages about picks the team just DGAF about. Af least 350 pages alone speculating on trading up. Leon showed his cards early and saved us from our own delusions.

That'll still happen with the Mav's pick. C'mon.

[Fury]

We're gonna have to re-sign this guy, yea?

Yep. Add another to the list of big contracts we'll dole out to players who are not winning us a chip anytime soon.

We're basically locked in up to the 25/26 year (player options for Randle, Brunson, last year for Mitch). If Randle and Brunson pick up their options, 26-27, Barrett's final year. So I've just accepted that this is it for a bit, and I wouldn't expect Hart's new contract to go past 25/26.

[KnicksNext]

What would be awesome would be a list of every transaction this FO has made since they got here. If anyone has the time and patience to put that together I would be forever indebted. Too lazy to do it, but it would be great to look at and analyze each move and how it affected future moves.

[KnicksNext]

Booker and KD gone in one move, so that ends those conversations.

So, who are we left with now? KAT as a our future franchise player? Who else is there?

you're the 2nd person who brought up kat today........i wanna burn this place to the ground