ImageImage

Grade the deadline

Moderators: fatlever, JDR720, Diop, BigSlam, yosemiteben

?

A
0
No votes
B
5
14%
C
10
29%
D
14
40%
F
6
17%
 
Total votes: 35

Braggins
RealGM
Posts: 14,472
And1: 9,265
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#61 » by Braggins » Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:12 am

Diop wrote:the fact that Bones only got 2 second round picks, shows its not a given you will get decent value in return.

Would the Clippers rather have Rozier or Bones Hyland for a title run in a couple months? Its very easy to imagine a scenario where they trade Wall/Jackson + the 2nds they traded for Bones for Rozier instead and then the Hornets move those 2nds for Bones. With all the 2nds flying around I find it hard to believe they couldn't have gotten salary relief and 2nds from someone. Even if they didn't like Bones I think the flexibility and getting Thybulle is worth it. Rozier really shouldn't be a part of the long term plan.

Diop wrote:im thinking they didnt see Thybulle as a long term fit. "we have enough defensive youths already"

that young Thor player, he can play the defense!

Theyre 25th in defensive rating and 30th in offensive rating. I hope they don't think they have enough of anything.
User avatar
luciano-davidwesley
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 7,954
And1: 2,694
Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Location: Gold Coast
Contact:
   

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#62 » by luciano-davidwesley » Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:28 am


Buzz Beat reaction
User avatar
Diop
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 40,342
And1: 20,715
Joined: Jul 24, 2004
Location: Diop Dead Ugly
 

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#63 » by Diop » Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:29 am

Braggins wrote:
Diop wrote:the fact that Bones only got 2 second round picks, shows its not a given you will get decent value in return.

Would the Clippers rather have Rozier or Bones Hyland for a title run in a couple months? Its very easy to imagine a scenario where they trade Wall/Jackson + the 2nds they traded for Bones for Rozier instead and then the Hornets move those 2nds for Bones. With all the 2nds flying around I find it hard to believe they couldn't have gotten salary relief and 2nds from someone. Even if they didn't like Bones I think the flexibility and getting Thybulle is worth it. Rozier really shouldn't be a part of the long term plan.

Diop wrote:im thinking they didnt see Thybulle as a long term fit. "we have enough defensive youths already"

that young Thor player, he can play the defense!

Theyre 25th in defensive rating and 30th in offensive rating. I hope they don't think they have enough of anything.

yeah i cant argue with any of that and yeah i was mocking the front office for not taking Thybulle, it sounds like the draft all over again. "we have enough youth"
Image
Braggins
RealGM
Posts: 14,472
And1: 9,265
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#64 » by Braggins » Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:35 am

Trading Rozier also signals a clear change in direction, which the team desperately needs.

Lack of leadership and poor team culture has been repeatedly cited as an issue with this team for the last few years. Rozier has been the team leader during this period and while I don't blame him for the issues, for whatever the reason the dynamic has not worked on or off the court. The status quo has failed three years in a row. I don't know how it could be any more obvious that its time to move on to another chapter. Things were already stale before this season and they hired the stalest possible coach and now this season has been one big disaster. They need to shake things up.
User avatar
amcoolio
Hornets Forum John Hancock
Posts: 17,727
And1: 10,068
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
Location: Servant to lord Bargnani
   

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#65 » by amcoolio » Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:36 am

Braggins wrote:If passing on Thybulle was a financial decision then that is part of the opportunity cost of not trading Rozier. Honestly, if money was the holdup I would have traded Rozier in a pure salary dump to open up the possibility of resigning Thybulle. I'm guessing they probably could have gotten salary relief and multiple 2nds for Rozier at the very least. Worst case scenario they probably could have had the same amount of total seconds, possibly more, and added Thybulle with plenty of flexibility to resign him (pretty sure hes restricted) by moving Rozier. Maybe then they flip some of those 2nds to get Bones Hyland to try out as a cost controlled Rozier replacement.

- LaMelo/Martin/Miles/PJ/Mark
- Bones/Thybulle/Hayward/Thor/Richards
- Maledon/McGowens/Kai

I would prefer that outcome over what they did and it doesn't take hardly any speculation to think they could have done this. I don't even have much confident in Bones, but you don't have to pay him for a couple more years and you retain cap flexibility (and possibly get more 2nds) with the only opportunity cost being that maybe you could get more directly in a trade for Rozier later down the line. I'm honestly not confident Roziers value is going to increase from here and think going in another direction had clear upside and more flexibility.


Exactly. Thank you. Mitch is like Sam Darnold, holding on to the ball way too long in the pocket and throwing late.

Also, at least with Thybulle, it gives us a different look and the fans something to get excited about, becuase everyone, including the casuals on Facebook, wants a defensive guard next to LaMelo. But Mitch really valued that Portland 2nd round pick instead. Just shows how out of touch this front office is. Either that or they are cheap and hamstrung. Jordan really needs to sell. Cash out at 2.5 billion or something and go have fun the rest of your life.
User avatar
Diop
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 40,342
And1: 20,715
Joined: Jul 24, 2004
Location: Diop Dead Ugly
 

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#66 » by Diop » Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:42 am

saying that, I can see the Clippers preferring EG over Rozier because he's got a team option for next year.
i think the length of Rozier's contract might have made him harder to move
Image
User avatar
JMAC3
RealGM
Posts: 13,220
And1: 6,240
Joined: May 22, 2010
     

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#67 » by JMAC3 » Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:46 am

I wanted Thybulle too, but Philly ended up with McDaniels and 2 seconds I believe for Thybulle.

If that was the 2 team version are we good with that?

FA and 2 seconds for a RFA?
Lwcasu
Pro Prospect
Posts: 843
And1: 322
Joined: Apr 10, 2014
Location: China
         

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#68 » by Lwcasu » Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:18 pm

The fact we got rid of Plumlee is a win. It opens up time for other players. Mark Williams is going to be special and Nick is already better than Plumlee. I know people want to say Plumlee was having a career year but he was having a career year mainly because all the injuries. No way if we had Miles and a completely healthy starting line up he has the season he has had. I do think we could/should have got more for McDaniel however I think we over value some of our players too. If we got back our 2nd as I saw posted then it’s close to a late first and that’s what I thought his value was.

I think the Durant and Kyrie trade kind of hurt Mitches chances. Regardless if Mitch didn’t move Plumlee I’d still be yelling to fire him. I’ll give him till the draft now. I’m pretty high on Victor Wem, Scoot, Brandon Miller,, Nick Smith, Cam Whitmore and the Thompson twins. With Victor, Brandon, the Thompson twins and Cam fitting really well.
User avatar
MPM
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,314
And1: 3,840
Joined: Mar 21, 2009
Location: Mouse Town
     

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#69 » by MPM » Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:22 pm

Grades from Bleacher Report: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10064850-grading-every-deal-at-the-2023-nba-trade-deadline

McD

Hornets: B-

"Giving up McDaniels for your own second-round pick is uninspiring on its face. His offensive development on the ball has been among the Hornets' scant few bright spots in an otherwise nondescript season. But this deal actually makes plenty of sense given Charlotte's direction."

Plumlee

Hornets: C

"There's nothing to really hate for the Hornets here. They probably wanted more for Plumlee given the offensive load he's been shouldering, but reserve bigs on expiring contracts don't fetch premiums. His departure opens even more playing time for rookie Mark Williams, which is way more valuable to their future, and it behooves them to nab a second-round pick for a player who profiled as a goner anyway."
Braggins
RealGM
Posts: 14,472
And1: 9,265
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#70 » by Braggins » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:07 pm

To add to some of my previous posts... Sometimes habits, vibes, dynamics, whatever, develop within a group and the only way to really fix it is to shake the group up.

I'll use the Pacers as a recent example. They constructed a very solid squad the last few years with guys like Brogdon, Sabonis, TJ Warren, and Turner, but they spent like two straight years with almost everyone on the team injured and were never able to develop the team they had envisioned. They easily could have stood pat and decided to keep that core together because they felt they built a good squad and wanted to give it more chances, but they recognized that things had gotten stale/sour and decided they just needed a different look. The Sabonis/Haliburton trade was fairly lateral in terms of talent, but has helped completely turn around both franchises involved because they both needed a clear change of direction.

This deadline feels a bit like if the Pacers had decided to just keep rolling out the Brogdon/Warren/Sabonis/Turner. I don't think the Hornets needed to make some blockbuster trade like that or anything, but things have clearly gotten stale and the team desperately just needs a new look. The best way to do that would have been to trade Rozier and it also fits with what they need to be doing anyways to execute a long term plan to build around LaMelo. I'm not saying it is Rozier fault things are the way they are fyi, just like it wasn't Sabonis' fault things were the way they ended up in Indiana before that trade.
User avatar
yosemiteben
Forum Mod - Hornets
Forum Mod - Hornets
Posts: 22,215
And1: 15,463
Joined: Mar 20, 2013
   

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#71 » by yosemiteben » Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:16 pm

Sabonis had very much more value than Terry, so that seems like a bad example to me. If Indy took minus value to move Sabonis, I think that take changes.
Braggins
RealGM
Posts: 14,472
And1: 9,265
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#72 » by Braggins » Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:40 pm

yosemiteben wrote:Sabonis had very much more value than Terry, so that seems like a bad example to me. If Indy took minus value to move Sabonis, I think that take changes.

Sure, and I also don't think the Terry situation is as simple as just moving him in a lateral move and suddenly everything will get better like it did for Sacramento/Indiana (wasn't really that simple with IND/SAC either). Its a loose comparison and just about the general idea of things being stale here and the team needing to shake things up.
User avatar
Snidely FC
Head Coach
Posts: 6,329
And1: 3,614
Joined: Jan 19, 2011
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: Grade the deadline 

Post#73 » by Snidely FC » Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:46 pm

I gave it a D
I don't feel you can look at the McD trade in a vacuum. He was traded not because he isn't a decent roster piece. 6'9" 25 year old ,versatile on offense and defense, at a high demand position, team held his Bird rights - why would PHI who are about to compete for the Eastern Conference Championship want him? No, the Hornets had to do this trade because they have hamstrung their cap with bad contracts to Hayward and Rozier. They were forced to choose between two young players, Pj and McD.

ESPN gave POR and PHI A grades for the McDaniels trade, and CHA a C. They noted:

Because the Hornets will almost certainly use cap space, taking advantage of McDaniels' minimum cap hold to spend that money and then go over the cap to re-sign him would have been a good outcome. As a result, it's imperative that Charlotte make good use of its pick the second time around.


Team messaging is confusing. 6 mths ago Kupchak traded away a 1st because the team had "too many young players." Thursday they traded a 25 year old with 4 yrs experience about to enter his prime years for a second shot at their own 2nd rd pick. Maybe Kupchak will select a college senior so he won't be too young.

I admire the barely mentioned Svi's high IQ, rugged play and shooting. Not sure why he never gets any PT wherever he's traded, maybe because he looks heavy these days. He's expiring so I assume he's not in the team's plans anyway.

Kind of can't believe Hornets had to include the 2024 2nd, and, like others, I would have felt a lot better about this trade if it landed Thybulle, instead of facilitating his move to POR.

I've grown so disillusioned with the perennial overcooked veteran PG signings (Parker, Thomas, Smith, you know the names) that frankly the Plumlee trade for Jackson triggered me. I will feel better about the trade if reports are true the team plans to buyout Jackson. I'll believe it when I see it.

It's dispiriting on Deadline day to see guys like Thybulle, Kennard, Beasley, Bey, and more, change teams. I'm sure this will elicit quibbles about each player's worth, but it's hard to deny that each might add a dimension to a roster that's won 15 games, and so I wonder, what might have been if the team packaged Plumlee and McD, for instance, instead of dumping them individually. Or shown some sort of creative way out of its current dilemmas. We talk about bball IQ for players. I feel like our GM's trade IQ at the very least lacks imagination.

Glad the team opened PT for Mark Williams and Nick Richards. Reports are they plan to play the young guys more. I hope that means more than just Williams and Richards. If shipping McD means PT for McGowens, I will also raise the grade. But Kelly will be back. And I look down the sideline and see Clifford. I simply don't trust Old School Clifford with this roster.

If they do buy out Jackson and continue to play the young guys and pick wisely with this year's 2nd my score might float up to a C for Contended that they emphasized youth, but for now I gave the day's trades a D. Dispiriting that guys like Thybulle or Kennard, guys in their mid-twenties, switched teams and might have been useful pieces here. Shipping Plumlee, McD and the Knicks 2nd yielded essentially the return of this year's 2nd, plus a distant 2nd. Options were hampered by the Hayward and Rozier contracts. Discouraging when bad contracts meted out by team management cause asset dumps or missed opportunities. This year's 2nd is nice, but that will bring a teenager, will they choose wisely and use that player, contrary to last spring's complaint that the team has too many young players, and Clifford's Old School approach? Addition by subtraction seemed to be the theme for the day. I simply think that if you're talking trades that deserves a D.

Return to Charlotte Hornets