Welcome back GP2!!

[CDM_Stats]

What made it a bad plan was picking up an option on a guy they had little interest in developing.

Wiseman wasn't a failure of player development - Warriors hired an expensive new player development coach, Dejan Milojević, just to help develop Wiseman. The Warriors have a big player development staff and bought their own G-League team just to develop players. No, the problem with Wiseman is he just can't play very well, and probably especially so within the Warriors' schemes.

Regarding the option, of course they pick it up - he didn't play last season, so the Warriors still didn't know what they had!

Oh so they threw money at an individual development coach? Ah well nevermind, A+ on their development then!
lol you guys have no idea who these coaches are or what they do

[CDM_Stats]

If the Warriors were under the cap instead of so deep into the tax, I'm sure they would have had a different calculus. Problem was there was one slot, and it's hard to let go of a 21 year old seven footer who you recently drafted #2 overall and who had barely played so far due to injury.

Well Wiseman has been mostly healthy this season, and Warriors decided they had seen enough. I don't think that means Warriors made the wrong decision last summer, or didn't value GPII. You make decisions based on the best data you have at the time.

uh huh

Or, the more obvious thing, the Warriors had a set cap price and couldnt go over it. The argument was that the Warriors didnt value GP2 at the price the Blazers did. That is clearly wrong, else why would they not only pay that price (nevermind his frequent injuries this year), but also move Wiseman to pay it?

[Twinkie defense]

What made it a bad plan was picking up an option on a guy they had little interest in developing.

Wiseman wasn't a failure of player development - Warriors hired an expensive new player development coach, Dejan Milojević, just to help develop Wiseman. The Warriors have a big player development staff and bought their own G-League team just to develop players. No, the problem with Wiseman is he just can't play very well, and probably especially so within the Warriors' schemes.

Regarding the option, of course they pick it up - he didn't play last season, so the Warriors still didn't know what they had!

Oh so they threw money at an individual development coach? Ah well nevermind, A+ on their development then!
lol you guys have no idea who these coaches are or what they do

Player development is not giving playing time to players who haven't earned it, it's working with players individually and in scrimmages so when they get a chance to play real NBA minutes they are ready. Poole might be out of the League if not for the Warriors player development. To my eyes Kuminga has made great strides since he came into the League and especially this season.

Warriors swung for the fences with Wiseman and missed. There's no shame in that. And I say that as someone who wanted the Warriors to draft LaMelo Ball. Thankfully the Warriors are in a position where they can swing for the fences without risking total team failure like most teams who draft at the top of the draft.

[Chris Porter's Hair]

Not sure why I'm being held to other people's takes,

I don't believe you are. Your post was part of a broader concern I have with the posts here. I also disagree with some of what you said in your post, which is what we're discussing.

but sure, you can say they wanted to develop him.. but where? How? He was never a rim runner, he was a halfcourt player that primarily stayed in the paint for HS and 'college'. And they said, OK, you can do those things, can you do all these other things that youve never done before? (Mitch Hedberg: "can you farm??"). What was changed at all to help a high value asset develop? Nothing? And the result was bad? It shouldnt be that shocking. Its a systemic problem thats going to become more and more obvious as the vets sunset. Words <<<< actions, and the actions havent been there

This goes from, "They didn't want to develop him" into "They only wanted to develop him in one particular way." Which is of course riskier, but not crazy. We've definitely developed other players by helping them succeed in a way that would also help our team, even if it might not have been what they expected. Looney is definitely not the player he once was. We see Kuminga learning to be a different player, and his prospects improving. We seem them trying to develop Poole into something that isn't necessarily natural for him, with more mixed results. But that doesn't mean they aren't developing him. Just that they weren't trying to develop him at the expense of all other things.

The expectation was that they understood this because everything has gone so well the past 10 years, but they don't. And thats not a guess, it's a trend. Where's Klay's BBIQ improvement in 10 years? Did Looney become smart, or did he learn a new position? Is Poole playing smarter? Warriors have effectively made one major systemic change the past 10 years, and it came from Ron Adams transitioning out of the defensive QB role and abandoning Bogut/Ezeli/Zaza's drop defense which helped Dray more than anyone. Again, catering to the big 2 here. And thats worked out great for a decade. But the era is almost over and if there's any hope of the 2 timelines thing succeeding, they need to change something. You can make it all about Wiseman if you want, but this is how they've 'developed' everyone. And that future now looks like a max level combo guard who's a huge defensive liability, a combo forward that needs to be POA or is a huge problem defensively (nevermind rebounding/offense), and - most likely their best bet going forward - a Channing Frye type. You can't develop a foundation that way, and now they've traded a high upside big - someone who was always going to have trouble fitting into timeline 1 - for a rotational player trying to extend that window.

So the two timelines thing is really just 1, with the hopes that we stumble into 2. And thats not really a great plan

I don't think Klay has been developed; he just became a better version of what he always was, until injuries set him back. Looney learning a new position *is developing him*. It made him a better player than he otherwise would have been. I don't know that I think Poole is playing "dumb"; but we are trying to develop him in to a player that I'm wary he can't really be, and I'm not sure how this plays out.

I think we're converging on an "agree to disagree" point. You're saying they aren't developing anyone (and Wiseman in particular). I think what you actually mean is, "They are developing them to maximize our teams needs rather than their own strengths." I think that's true, I just don't think it is such a bad thing. And in the case of Wiseman, they may have said, "Yeah, if we keep trying to make you what we need, then neither of us will be happy. You aren't going to do it very well (at least anytime soon), and we aren't going to be maximizing your abilities". And when that is the conclusion, a change of scenery is the right answer.

[whatisacenter]

someone came into this thread swinging their dick...

[Twinkie defense]

If the Warriors were under the cap instead of so deep into the tax, I'm sure they would have had a different calculus. Problem was there was one slot, and it's hard to let go of a 21 year old seven footer who you recently drafted #2 overall and who had barely played so far due to injury.

Well Wiseman has been mostly healthy this season, and Warriors decided they had seen enough. I don't think that means Warriors made the wrong decision last summer, or didn't value GPII. You make decisions based on the best data you have at the time.

uh huh

Or, the more obvious thing, the Warriors had a set cap price and couldnt go over it. The argument was that the Warriors didnt value GP2 at the price the Blazers did. That is clearly wrong, else why would they not only pay that price (nevermind his frequent injuries this year), but also move Wiseman to pay it?

The Warriors upgraded their roster and brought back a team and fan favorite. You can bet Steph and Draymond are happy about the move. Why do you seem so agitated about what amounts to an end-of-roster move? From a team that is the defending NBA champs?

[CDM_Stats]

Player development is not giving playing time to players who haven't earned it, it's working with players individually and in scrimmages so when they get a chance to play real NBA minutes they are ready. Poole might be out of the League if not for the Warriors player development. To my eyes Kuminga has made great strides since he came into the League and especially this season.

Warriors swung for the fences with Wiseman and missed. There's no shame in that. And I say that as someone who wanted the Warriors to draft LaMelo Ball. Thankfully the Warriors are in a position where they can swing for the fences without risking total team failure like most teams who draft at the top of the draft.

Couple things

Wiseman started from day 1. Did he earn it?

And I'm not making the suggestion that playing time = development, **** sake hester give me some goddamn credit. I'm specifically saying they drafted him to be something he's not, and instead of acknowledging that and adjusting the offense slightly to accommodate the development of someone who was clearly on the 2nd timeline, they decided to double down on him needing to entirely integrate to the current system.

And just because the Warriors can afford to make this level of a mistake doesn't mean that 1) its ok and 2) that its not indicative of a much larger problem. Poole's improvement is that he got used to the NBA game, what has he actually done any different than college? Kuminga came into the league as an athletic guy that is fine on-ball and can score off the dribble, but is lost in systems and doesnt rebound. Where's the change? The development?

At a certain point the team has to stop unilaterally pushing timeline 1 and acknowledge that they chose this path, and they can't neglect the 2nd one if they want any success to come from it

[CDM_Stats]

If the Warriors were under the cap instead of so deep into the tax, I'm sure they would have had a different calculus. Problem was there was one slot, and it's hard to let go of a 21 year old seven footer who you recently drafted #2 overall and who had barely played so far due to injury.

Well Wiseman has been mostly healthy this season, and Warriors decided they had seen enough. I don't think that means Warriors made the wrong decision last summer, or didn't value GPII. You make decisions based on the best data you have at the time.

uh huh

Or, the more obvious thing, the Warriors had a set cap price and couldnt go over it. The argument was that the Warriors didnt value GP2 at the price the Blazers did. That is clearly wrong, else why would they not only pay that price (nevermind his frequent injuries this year), but also move Wiseman to pay it?

The Warriors upgraded their roster and brought back a team and fan favorite. You can bet Steph and Draymond are happy about the move. Why do you seem so agitated about what amounts to an end-of-roster move? From a team that is the defending NBA champs?

oh no no no you misunderstand - I love it for a lot of reasons. I was just very sternly told that the only reason we didnt bring in GP2 this offseason was the Warriors didnt think he was worth the money. I, entirely guessing and wondering, said that it was a budgetary reason, and if they didnt have someone like Wiseman on the books, they'd have brought him back at that price. I think you agree...?

[CDM_Stats]

someone came into this thread swinging their dick...

I have a day off

[whatisacenter]

uh huh

Or, the more obvious thing, the Warriors had a set cap price and couldnt go over it. The argument was that the Warriors didnt value GP2 at the price the Blazers did. That is clearly wrong, else why would they not only pay that price (nevermind his frequent injuries this year), but also move Wiseman to pay it?

The Warriors upgraded their roster and brought back a team and fan favorite. You can bet Steph and Draymond are happy about the move. Why do you seem so agitated about what amounts to an end-of-roster move? From a team that is the defending NBA champs?

oh no no no you misunderstand - I love it for a lot of reasons. I was just very sternly told that the only reason we didnt bring in GP2 this offseason was the Warriors didnt think he was worth the money. I, entirely guessing and wondering, said that it was a budgetary reason, and if they didnt have someone like Wiseman on the books, they'd have brought him back at that price. I think you agree...?

I'm happy to have GP2 back but I still think he is and was overpaid.

[Onus]

If we had won against the pistons, hornets, and magic, Wiseman is most likely still on this team.

unfortunately, no

Wasn't there a story about Kerr and Wiseman having a talk recently? Why would that even come up..

If we were in 2nd place which we are 5 games out of, you think we'd still make this trade? You don't think they would just ride this out? I'm pretty sure we lost 5 out of those 6 games against those 3 teams, which are tanking. Maybe, maybe not, but the narrative around the team would be completely different that's for sure.

As for the talk it's because he wasn't going to get playing time. Maybe he also told him, hey we're going to look to trade you. Maybe that's why they didn't send him to the g-league when they sent Moody down.

[CDM_Stats]

This goes from, "They didn't want to develop him" into "They only wanted to develop him in one particular way." Which is of course riskier, but not crazy. We've definitely developed other players by helping them succeed in a way that would also help our team, even if it might not have been what they expected. Looney is definitely not the player he once was. We see Kuminga learning to be a different player, and his prospects improving. We seem them trying to develop Poole into something that isn't necessarily natural for him, with more mixed results. But that doesn't mean they aren't developing him. Just that they weren't trying to develop him at the expense of all other things.

But some of this isnt true. Looney always was a smart player who could play down low in college, the issue was he wasn't deemed big enough to do it back in what.. 2014? The game now looks more like the college game in 2014, thus the transition. He covered the middle for UCLA - funny enough, I think what he's doing now is exactly what he did in UCLA but with less of a jumper.. But these are mostly platitudes, you know I work in data. And the data is showing more volume, but not tangible improvements. There's a happy medium between not developing and developing at the expense of all things, a pivot point even, and thats why I'm critiquing it. The team decided to cash in young draft assets for young players - high value young players even - and are developing them the same way they develop late 1sts and early 2nds.. why? Thats a really bad management of assets. When you draft at the top of the draft, you don't get to pick and choose custom fits for your team as much because the tiers are often 1 or 2 players. You have to play to who they are. And while they do it to a degree with Kuminga, did they with Wiseman? And if you agree they didn't.. why make the investment in the first place? Its a half measure, and it doesnt make sense.

I think we're converging on an "agree to disagree" point. You're saying they aren't developing anyone (and Wiseman in particular). I think what you actually mean is, "They are developing them to maximize our teams needs rather than their own strengths." I think that's true, I just don't think it is such a bad thing. And in the case of Wiseman, they may have said, "Yeah, if we keep trying to make you what we need, then neither of us will be happy. You aren't going to do it very well (at least anytime soon), and we aren't going to be maximizing your abilities". And when that is the conclusion, a change of scenery is the right answer.

I'm not saying they arent developing anyone, no extremes here, I'm saying that its a spectrum. And they are leaning too heavily on the "what helps us now" spectrum, and that's inadvisable for a lot of reasons. But overall its a critique of them not knowing what they were getting into when they pitched a 2 timeline approach. In fact it makes it seem more like bluster, like maybe it was more just to justify that they couldnt get what they wanted via trade for the assets, and had to bite the bullet and draft projected BPAs with the hopes that a deal that made sense would present itself. And that would be more understandable honestly.. but still doesn't erase the criticism that they pissed away a high value asset because of their system. And if the trade off of winning a title last year is enough, I get that. But as a fan who would have liked to see a better transition to timeline 2, I think the critique is more than warranted

But to your last point - absolutely. Its like that talk with Kerr was pretty important, and a few weeks later after no legitimate playing time, he's dealt.. maybe one side made their intentions known and caused a quick pivot? Even so, I'm more focused on what led to that moment than the moment itself

[CDM_Stats]

The Warriors upgraded their roster and brought back a team and fan favorite. You can bet Steph and Draymond are happy about the move. Why do you seem so agitated about what amounts to an end-of-roster move? From a team that is the defending NBA champs?

oh no no no you misunderstand - I love it for a lot of reasons. I was just very sternly told that the only reason we didnt bring in GP2 this offseason was the Warriors didnt think he was worth the money. I, entirely guessing and wondering, said that it was a budgetary reason, and if they didnt have someone like Wiseman on the books, they'd have brought him back at that price. I think you agree...?

I'm happy to have GP2 back but I still think he is and was overpaid.

im not guessing. I knew then, I know now, I'm just laughing because I never thought it would be this easy to prove

[Onus]

Player development is not giving playing time to players who haven't earned it, it's working with players individually and in scrimmages so when they get a chance to play real NBA minutes they are ready. Poole might be out of the League if not for the Warriors player development. To my eyes Kuminga has made great strides since he came into the League and especially this season.

Warriors swung for the fences with Wiseman and missed. There's no shame in that. And I say that as someone who wanted the Warriors to draft LaMelo Ball. Thankfully the Warriors are in a position where they can swing for the fences without risking total team failure like most teams who draft at the top of the draft.

Couple things

Wiseman started from day 1. Did he earn it?

And I'm not making the suggestion that playing time = development, **** sake hester give me some goddamn credit. I'm specifically saying they drafted him to be something he's not, and instead of acknowledging that and adjusting the offense slightly to accommodate the development of someone who was clearly on the 2nd timeline, they decided to double down on him needing to entirely integrate to the current system.

And just because the Warriors can afford to make this level of a mistake doesn't mean that 1) its ok and 2) that its not indicative of a much larger problem. Poole's improvement is that he got used to the NBA game, what has he actually done any different than college? Kuminga came into the league as an athletic guy that is fine on-ball and can score off the dribble, but is lost in systems and doesnt rebound. Where's the change? The development?

At a certain point the team has to stop unilaterally pushing timeline 1 and acknowledge that they chose this path, and they can't neglect the 2nd one if they want any success to come from it

They have completey neglected the 2nd time line, which makes little sense that they're still on the team. I still don't get the allure of keeping jk and not moving him for OG.

[whatisacenter]

oh no no no you misunderstand - I love it for a lot of reasons. I was just very sternly told that the only reason we didnt bring in GP2 this offseason was the Warriors didnt think he was worth the money. I, entirely guessing and wondering, said that it was a budgetary reason, and if they didnt have someone like Wiseman on the books, they'd have brought him back at that price. I think you agree...?

I'm happy to have GP2 back but I still think he is and was overpaid.

im not guessing. I knew then, I know now, I'm just laughing because I never thought it would be this easy to prove

I'm not even sure what you are trying to say anymore....prove what?

[CDM_Stats]

I'm happy to have GP2 back but I still think he is and was overpaid.

im not guessing. I knew then, I know now, I'm just laughing because I never thought it would be this easy to prove

I'm not even sure what you are trying to say anymore....prove what?

I was just very sternly told that the only reason we didnt bring in GP2 this offseason was the Warriors didnt think he was worth the money. I, entirely guessing and wondering, said that it was a budgetary reason, and if they didnt have someone like Wiseman on the books, they'd have brought him back at that price

And then they literally traded Wiseman for GP2

where is the disconnect?

[CDM_Stats]

Player development is not giving playing time to players who haven't earned it, it's working with players individually and in scrimmages so when they get a chance to play real NBA minutes they are ready. Poole might be out of the League if not for the Warriors player development. To my eyes Kuminga has made great strides since he came into the League and especially this season.

Warriors swung for the fences with Wiseman and missed. There's no shame in that. And I say that as someone who wanted the Warriors to draft LaMelo Ball. Thankfully the Warriors are in a position where they can swing for the fences without risking total team failure like most teams who draft at the top of the draft.

Couple things

Wiseman started from day 1. Did he earn it?

And I'm not making the suggestion that playing time = development, **** sake hester give me some goddamn credit. I'm specifically saying they drafted him to be something he's not, and instead of acknowledging that and adjusting the offense slightly to accommodate the development of someone who was clearly on the 2nd timeline, they decided to double down on him needing to entirely integrate to the current system.

And just because the Warriors can afford to make this level of a mistake doesn't mean that 1) its ok and 2) that its not indicative of a much larger problem. Poole's improvement is that he got used to the NBA game, what has he actually done any different than college? Kuminga came into the league as an athletic guy that is fine on-ball and can score off the dribble, but is lost in systems and doesnt rebound. Where's the change? The development?

At a certain point the team has to stop unilaterally pushing timeline 1 and acknowledge that they chose this path, and they can't neglect the 2nd one if they want any success to come from it

They have completey neglected the 2nd time line, which makes little sense that they're still on the team. I still don't get the allure of keeping jk and not moving him for OG.

if those rumors if Masai's asking price are true, I get it. Masai's the kinda guy you dont ever want to deal with.. its like challenging a charging Kuminga coming down the lane. You'll be lucky if you arent turned into a poster

Especially when a guy like Jae Crowder at a fraction of the cost. I think Masai missed on this one, I dont know that OGs value goes any higher

[Onus]

Couple things

Wiseman started from day 1. Did he earn it?

And I'm not making the suggestion that playing time = development, **** sake hester give me some goddamn credit. I'm specifically saying they drafted him to be something he's not, and instead of acknowledging that and adjusting the offense slightly to accommodate the development of someone who was clearly on the 2nd timeline, they decided to double down on him needing to entirely integrate to the current system.

And just because the Warriors can afford to make this level of a mistake doesn't mean that 1) its ok and 2) that its not indicative of a much larger problem. Poole's improvement is that he got used to the NBA game, what has he actually done any different than college? Kuminga came into the league as an athletic guy that is fine on-ball and can score off the dribble, but is lost in systems and doesnt rebound. Where's the change? The development?

At a certain point the team has to stop unilaterally pushing timeline 1 and acknowledge that they chose this path, and they can't neglect the 2nd one if they want any success to come from it

They have completey neglected the 2nd time line, which makes little sense that they're still on the team. I still don't get the allure of keeping jk and not moving him for OG.

if those rumors if Masai's asking price are true, I get it. Masai's the kinda guy you dont ever want to deal with.. its like challenging a charging Kuminga coming down the lane. You'll be lucky if you arent turned into a poster

Especially when a guy like Jae Crowder at a fraction of the cost. I think Masai missed on this one, I dont know that OGs value goes any higher

I agree that Masai **** this up which is so disappointing. OG's value is never going to be higher than now, but it really seemed like we were close and not closing the deal is just so disheartening.

[Twinkie defense]

Wiseman started from day 1. Did he earn it?

No. And I believe that Kerr admitted that was a mistake.

I'm specifically saying they drafted him to be something he's not, and instead of acknowledging that and adjusting the offense slightly to accommodate the development of someone who was clearly on the 2nd timeline, they decided to double down on him needing to entirely integrate to the current system.

Nobody knew what Wiseman was - he only played three games in college and they couldn't even work him out because Covid. What the Warriors saw, like everyone, was this incredible raw material, the combination of size and athleticism that is incredibly rare, but when you find it, is the holy grail (see: Kevin Durant). And it's not like they passed on drafting LeBron or Jordan to pick him.

Regarding the system, Warriors are not a pick and roll offense, which seems like the most comfortable fit for Wiseman. You don't mess up the most potent offensive scheme over the last close to a decade to accommodate a rookie. And unfortunately Wiseman has been lost on defense. How do they know Wiseman has no defensive awareness from 69 minutes of college basketball?

Poole's improvement is that he got used to the NBA game, what has he actually done any different than college

There has been quite a bit of writing about Chris DeMarco's work with Poole, specifically working on getting a quicker release (see for example here and here). Poole has warts (I find him to be a very frustrating player) but of course the development only works if the player is committed to working hard to improve (not saying Wiseman isn't, just giving Poole credit along with DeMarco for the improvement).

Kuminga came into the league as an athletic guy that is fine on-ball and can score off the dribble, but is lost in systems and doesnt rebound. Where's the change? The development?

We must see different things with Kuminga - and I was skeptical of drafting him, and liked Davion Mitchell instead In particular Kuminga is working a lot better in the team schemes - the Warriors have modified their defensive schemes somewhat to fit Kuminga's skillset, and on offense Kuminga is getting in the flow instead of being the ball-stopper he was last season.

If the Warriors weren't trying to bridge two eras, they would have traded the picks that got them Wiseman, Kuminga and Moody for vets, someone like Bradley Beal, pushed all their chips into last season and this season. And then rebuild from scratch. That doesn't mean they are making the transition in optimal fashion, but they do have a plan, and have been sticking with it (see also: keeping Kuminga instead of trading him + picks to the Raptors). And they also are defending champs so I think they've earned some benefit of the doubt

[Twinkie defense]

Regarding Looney, the biggest factor for him (along with years of experience playing with Steph, Klay and Dray in the Warriors system) is he's finally been healthy - he came into the League from UCLA injured and needing hip surgery. That sounds like a pretty debilitating, chronic injury. He was the kind of player that the Warriors were lucky for him to fall into their laps late in the first round, because they could take a flier on a guy who would not be able to contribute out of the gate.