Welcome back GP2!!

[Dom801e]

This might be best case for Front Office. They may have wanted to dump Wiseman for savings, but that would upset Steph. Now they may get to do it without the vets being angry.

[Sleepy51]

This isn't going to be adjudicated in court though, it's a matter for the league to take action on and they can act outside of contract law correct?

The League office is full of lawyers who, predictably, think like lawyers. That said, this matter will not be resolved in a court of law. It's a matter of whether or not the Warriors, applying legal principles, want to resolve the matter or void the deal altogether. I think they will be inclined to amend the deal - since I think they really don't want Wiseman back.

Fair point.

The fact that this should have been in medical records which GSW was entitled to (in writing) makes it a big deal on multiple fronts. Were they giving Payton the shot without documenting medical treatment (not a med-mal attorney, but have to think that's a problem beyond basketball) or did they purposely leave out a major medical document from the required disclosures.

Of course if it turns out this was in the paperwork and the W's missed it. Fire everybody.

[Old_Blue]

If it can be amended maybe they swap GP2 for Cam Reddish? He is an expiring and would save the FO more $. I don't know, just throwing it out there.

That would be involving another party not part of the existing trade. That's not going to happen.

[Sleepy51]

If it can be amended maybe they swap GP2 for Cam Reddish? He is an expiring and would save the FO more $. I don't know, just throwing it out there.

That would be involving another party not part of the existing trade. That's not going to happen.

Well, the players themselves are not party to the trades, unless they have no-trade clauses in their contracts.

[michaelm]

I really don't like the suggestions of fraud/misrepresentation on Portland's part. If this deal goes down in flames, it's really not enough to penalize Portland. The Dubs should get some form of compensation. That said, under no circumstances can I see the Dubs being rewarded anything more than a second round pick.

Particularly given he arrived at the Blazers from GSW injured.

I'm not sure how that matters. We had nothing to do with the Blazers signing of GP2. If they chose to sign him knowing he was injured, or didn't bother to figure out if he was injured, that's their problem. Now when they're negotiating with us to trade him back, if it turns out they were not forthcoming with important disclosure, that's another matter.

If we decide to let the trade stand, then I think it is just that. We all keep our pieces. Maybe people decide Portland isn't trustworthy and they have to live with that. Maybe the league punishes them, but I doubt it benefits us any, because we would have demonstrated we weren't too bothered if we kept Payton anyway.

If we decide to rescind the whole trade, as much as it feels like we suffered the most, I don't see us getting compensated unless Detroit and Atlanta are also compensated. Because all teams could say, "Wait a minute... if they hadn't made this mess, we might have made different moves."

But all that is me guessing.

Sure, you are correct of course, it wasn’t a trade, they just signed him as a Free Agent.

I was mainly thinking from the penalising fraud point of view, I guess the GSW FO knew he had the injury when they didn’t re-sign him for this season, so it is somewhat on them in general if not legal terms that they still decided to trade to get him back. He was by all appearances back playing after successful surgery though. The other question is where GPII was in all this, again guessing why would he be happily returning to GSW as was reported if he knew he couldn’t help them this year but GSW didn’t ?.

The only certain thing that I can see is that the finalisation of a trade is subject to a satisfactory medical.

[CDM_Stats]

Cannot be amended

*apparently can be amended between the 2 teams if no team found at fault by league; cannot involve any of the other teams in the trade nor can it involve any outside teams

That's still better than initially thought. Sounds like we could potentially talk down the number of picks if we still wanted to do it, and if Portland doesn't like that, it is up to us whether to kill the whole thing.

For that matter, it sounds like the 2 teams in question could just decide not to do "their part", in which case we'd keep Knox and all 5 picks. Yeah? I wasn't very happy before we heard of the Payton angle and we thought we were getting 5 picks, but perhaps it is at least an option in a mess that has no good options.

And that also sounds like if Portland is found at fault by the league, then none of this is on the table? That seems odd if we decided we wanted to renegotiate with Portland and move forward?

EDIT: Actually, that doesn't sound quite right. None of the 5 second round picks were ours to begin with, and were never "ours" to give, right? I don't know if I ever knew who was actually giving the 5 second round picks, but strictly speaking I'd guess in the four way trade, Detroit or Atlanta agreed to give picks to Portland in the 4 way trade. So if we and Portland wanted to renegotiate "our part" of the deal, isn't "our part" just sending Payton to the Warriors? And it would seem funny if we could decide to do something different with Atlanta's or Detroit's picks? But I suppose Portland could decide to give us *different* picks back maybe?

Without knowing anything for sure, I'd have to imagine that the Warriors could keep the picks if they wanted to do so, but Id put the odds like this

50% trade gets scrapped altogether
30% trade goes through with adjustment to picks, possibly significant adjustment
10% trade goes through as-is
10% trade goes through without Portland, Warriors keep all 5 picks

Purely speculating, but I dont think Warriors would like the last option where they keep picks. Its expensive as hell sure, but they dont have their 2024 1st and they probably don't want to lose a salary spot going into the offseason. If they think GP2 can eventually heal, they may take the deal or a variation of it. But if they aren't certain, they likely keep Wiseman. Why not? Maybe he shows out and becomes more than an expiring, but at worst, he's an expiring in the offseason

[Chris Porter's Hair]

Particularly given he arrived at the Blazers from GSW injured.

I'm not sure how that matters. We had nothing to do with the Blazers signing of GP2. If they chose to sign him knowing he was injured, or didn't bother to figure out if he was injured, that's their problem. Now when they're negotiating with us to trade him back, if it turns out they were not forthcoming with important disclosure, that's another matter.

If we decide to let the trade stand, then I think it is just that. We all keep our pieces. Maybe people decide Portland isn't trustworthy and they have to live with that. Maybe the league punishes them, but I doubt it benefits us any, because we would have demonstrated we weren't too bothered if we kept Payton anyway.

If we decide to rescind the whole trade, as much as it feels like we suffered the most, I don't see us getting compensated unless Detroit and Atlanta are also compensated. Because all teams could say, "Wait a minute... if they hadn't made this mess, we might have made different moves."

But all that is me guessing.

Sure, you are correct of course, it wasn’t a trade, they just signed him as a Free Agent.

I was mainly thinking from the penalising fraud point of view, I guess the GSW FO knew he had the injury when they didn’t re-sign him for this season, so it is somewhat on them in general if not legal terms that they still decided to trade to get him back. He was by all appearances back playing after successful surgery though. The other question is where GPII was in all this, again guessing why would he be happily returning to GSW as was reported if he knew he couldn’t help them this year but GSW didn’t ?.

The only certain thing that I can see is that the finalisation of a trade is subject to a satisfactory medical.

My best guess there, and I'm making stuff up, is that he was anxious to get back here, and he knew he was hurt, but was hoping he'd be able to play sooner rather than later. I'd like to believe Payton didn't know/believe he should be out the rest of the year and tried to just keep it quiet to end up here anyway. And our doctors were like, "Uh, no. This looks bad."

[oaktownwarriors87]

The problem with Wisemans development wasn't just making him a starter day one, but making him the #1 option on offense day one.

I said then, I say now - though with less confidence - I don't mind that. I like the idea of throwing a rookie into the fire for a little while, letting them and the coaches analyze the weak points, and then taking that knowledge to the GL to work on it. Especially for someone in Wiseman's situation, where there were tons of questions about what he could do. The problem was that due to injuries and the pandemic, he never really had that opportunity until this year. And it was going well, until the ankle roll in January and then *the talk*

My issue is what I noted above with twinkie - we dont develop new skills here, we enhance whats already there, and the offensive structure didnt play to Wiseman's strengths, and they never really established him in a role where he could do what he's best at. I dont know many who would develop in those circumstances. And if he were frustrated and wanted out, I could understand that after going to the GL and improving on the aspects asked to, but being given no role behind an aging guy who was also struggling with basic defensive concepts

Not to be too argumentative, but I remember a good number of us saw pretty quickly that he wasn't ready to handle that role. He and Oubre were tanking the season and Wiseman wase
leading the way. Looney had emerged as a quality player and they only benched Wiseman once he was injured.

I can accept trying him out, but once it was apparent he wasn't ready they should have sent him to the GL. They ended up 21-12 without him that season and 3-14 when he played 25+ minutes.

Some might think it's crazy, but I'm a firm believer that team could have won it all. Moving Wiseman and/or Oubre for any player with a brain would have pushed that team over the top.

I guess there's no point in arguing about it now, though. He's gone.

[Old_Blue]

If it can be amended maybe they swap GP2 for Cam Reddish? He is an expiring and would save the FO more $. I don't know, just throwing it out there.

That would be involving another party not part of the existing trade. That's not going to happen.

Well, the players themselves are not party to the trades, unless they have no-trade clauses in their contracts.

My bad. I didn't realize Reddish was with the Blazers. Given that he is, sure I could see a player substitution happening involving the same two teams. Honestly though, I think the Dubs would prefer GP2 over Reddish.

[Big J]

That would be involving another party not part of the existing trade. That's not going to happen.

Well, the players themselves are not party to the trades, unless they have no-trade clauses in their contracts.

My bad. I didn't realize Reddish was with the Blazers. Given that he is, sure I could see a player substitution happening involving the same two teams. Honestly though, I think the Dubs would prefer GP2 over Reddish.

I'd take Knox and the picks over Can Rubbish.

[Old_Blue]

My best guess there, and I'm making stuff up, is that he was anxious to get back here, and he knew he was hurt, but was hoping he'd be able to play sooner rather than later. I'd like to believe Payton didn't know/believe he should be out the rest of the year and tried to just keep it quiet to end up here anyway. And our doctors were like, "Uh, no. This looks bad."

Payton played no role in the negotiation process. The deal was completed without his input. As is generally the case, the player was traded and then subsequently notified of the trade. The degree to which Payton did or did not minimize his own injury is irrelevant compared to the role Portland played in this fiasco. So, yes, I agree that you're just making stuff up.

https://sports.yahoo.com/warriors-reunion-with-gary-payton-ii-reportedly-in-jeopardy-after-blazers-guard-fails-physical-001312718.html

"Charania reports that Payton had been receiving painkilling Toradol shots as the Blazers' training staff pushed him to play through the pain, something the Warriors were not told during the negotiation process."

[CDM_Stats]

The problem with Wisemans development wasn't just making him a starter day one, but making him the #1 option on offense day one.

I said then, I say now - though with less confidence - I don't mind that. I like the idea of throwing a rookie into the fire for a little while, letting them and the coaches analyze the weak points, and then taking that knowledge to the GL to work on it. Especially for someone in Wiseman's situation, where there were tons of questions about what he could do. The problem was that due to injuries and the pandemic, he never really had that opportunity until this year. And it was going well, until the ankle roll in January and then *the talk*

My issue is what I noted above with twinkie - we dont develop new skills here, we enhance whats already there, and the offensive structure didnt play to Wiseman's strengths, and they never really established him in a role where he could do what he's best at. I dont know many who would develop in those circumstances. And if he were frustrated and wanted out, I could understand that after going to the GL and improving on the aspects asked to, but being given no role behind an aging guy who was also struggling with basic defensive concepts

Not to be too argumentative, but I remember a good number of us saw pretty quickly that he wasn't ready to handle that role. He and Oubre were tanking the season and Wiseman wase
leading the way. Looney had emerged as a quality player and they only benched Wiseman once he was injured.

I can accept trying him out, but once it was apparent he wasn't ready they should have sent him to the GL. They ended up 21-12 without him that season and 3-14 when he played 25+ minutes.

Some might think it's crazy, but I'm a firm believer that team could have won it all. Moving Wiseman and/or Oubre for any player with a brain would have pushed that team over the top.

I guess there's no point in arguing about it now, though. He's gone.

Well 1 thing - the GL was heavily restricted that year, it was a bubble. So you had to be all the way in or all the way out, and the Warriors only had 2 centers on the roster, and Looney wasnt doing ironman **** back then. I get why they had to do it, but it effectively erased one, if not 2, of Wiseman's developmental years.

And I dont think he's gone. If I was a betting man, I'd say Wiseman is staying

[Onus]

Again, how, exactly does keeping Wiseman address the first reason on the luxury tax? And if the goal is to win now, do we know for a fact that the team was already aware that the Suns had acquired KD and that the Lakers unloaded Westbrook before they had finalized the complexities of a 4-team trade? I remain unconvinced that the entire concept of two timelines was smashed by this trade. We are hearing that the OG trade idea was squashed because the Raptors insisted on including Kuminga plus picks, which the Dubs did not want to do. If you only wanted to win now, OG is as or more impactful right now than JK and who cares about future picks if your focus is to win now. I would venture that they view JK and the picks as key elements for a second timeline. So no I do not think you can just isolate one single aspect and make a conclusion on just that one aspect while ignoring context and the bigger picture.

That’s if this was an actual luxury tax move solely.

Yes the Kd move and the Westbrook moves happened before our trade discussions so they were fully aware of the landscape.

People’s guess is that masai’s ask was just too much to meet which is why they didn’t trade jk. But it was being discussed. Which means they were ready to throw away the 2nd timeline completely and really they should’ve done it.

Odd, I keep saying that there are multiple factors involved and you keep hanging on just one or sole aspect. So no need to reply since you are only looking for single aspect possibilities and I am not. And I do believe that the FO expects DDV to opt out and I do believe that GP2 (if our staff believes he will be healthy next season) provides a better solution for that hole than keeping Wiseman does. And I don't at all believe that there is a clear consensus that they should have dealt JK plus picks for OG, nor is it clear to me what the full extent of those conversations were.

I think the trade solved multiple issues.
1. Being that they wanted reinforcements for this year.
2. Saved money
3. Appeased Steph to make a move.

But yes the I think the main motive was to get reinforcements for this year which is why they tried to get og first and then settled on gp.

[michaelm]

I'm not sure how that matters. We had nothing to do with the Blazers signing of GP2. If they chose to sign him knowing he was injured, or didn't bother to figure out if he was injured, that's their problem. Now when they're negotiating with us to trade him back, if it turns out they were not forthcoming with important disclosure, that's another matter.

If we decide to let the trade stand, then I think it is just that. We all keep our pieces. Maybe people decide Portland isn't trustworthy and they have to live with that. Maybe the league punishes them, but I doubt it benefits us any, because we would have demonstrated we weren't too bothered if we kept Payton anyway.

If we decide to rescind the whole trade, as much as it feels like we suffered the most, I don't see us getting compensated unless Detroit and Atlanta are also compensated. Because all teams could say, "Wait a minute... if they hadn't made this mess, we might have made different moves."

But all that is me guessing.

Sure, you are correct of course, it wasn’t a trade, they just signed him as a Free Agent.

I was mainly thinking from the penalising fraud point of view, I guess the GSW FO knew he had the injury when they didn’t re-sign him for this season, so it is somewhat on them in general if not legal terms that they still decided to trade to get him back. He was by all appearances back playing after successful surgery though. The other question is where GPII was in all this, again guessing why would he be happily returning to GSW as was reported if he knew he couldn’t help them this year but GSW didn’t ?.

The only certain thing that I can see is that the finalisation of a trade is subject to a satisfactory medical.

My best guess there, and I'm making stuff up, is that he was anxious to get back here, and he knew he was hurt, but was hoping he'd be able to play sooner rather than later. I'd like to believe Payton didn't know/believe he should be out the rest of the year and tried to just keep it quiet to end up here anyway. And our doctors were like, "Uh, no. This looks bad."

Sure, that was what I meant as well, he might be wrong about his capacity to play but deliberate fraud iis highly unlikely given all parties knew he would be subject to a medical.

Bottom line is that GSW have an out if they want it. A difference of opinion between the respective medical staff is not impossible either.

[BayAreaDub]

Poor Gary, if he gets sent back he has to take more Toradol

[azwfan]

I was bored and I’m seeing GSW also got 2x 2nd rd picks in the original deal. Is that right? Where did the 5x 2nds come from? Thought it was ATL, but doubt they paid 7 (?) 2nds.

Was the Warriors receiving 2x 2nds just early reporting, or did we actually get 2x 2nds also?

[Chris Porter's Hair]

My best guess there, and I'm making stuff up, is that he was anxious to get back here, and he knew he was hurt, but was hoping he'd be able to play sooner rather than later. I'd like to believe Payton didn't know/believe he should be out the rest of the year and tried to just keep it quiet to end up here anyway. And our doctors were like, "Uh, no. This looks bad."

Payton played no role in the negotiation process. The deal was completed without his input. As is generally the case, the player was traded and then subsequently notified of the trade. The degree to which Payton did or did not minimize his own injury is irrelevant compared to the role Portland played in this fiasco. So, yes, I agree that you're just making stuff up.

https://sports.yahoo.com/warriors-reunion-with-gary-payton-ii-reportedly-in-jeopardy-after-blazers-guard-fails-physical-001312718.html

"Charania reports that Payton had been receiving painkilling Toradol shots as the Blazers' training staff pushed him to play through the pain, something the Warriors were not told during the negotiation process."

I was responding to

The other question is where GPII was in all this, again guessing why would he be happily returning to GSW as was reported if he knew he couldn’t help them this year but GSW didn’t ?.

as to why GP2 when informed of the trade wouldn't have immediately said, "Wait... you can't trade me/trade for me. I can't play the rest of the year."

[The-Power]

I was responding to

The other question is where GPII was in all this, again guessing why would he be happily returning to GSW as was reported if he knew he couldn’t help them this year but GSW didn’t ?.

as to why GP2 when informed of the trade wouldn't have immediately said, "Wait... you can't trade me/trade for me. I can't play the rest of the year."

It not GPII's responsibility to convey his medical information when he's in a trade. That's the job of the team he's on.

[Sleepy51]

A difference of opinion between the respective medical staff is not impossible either.

A difference of opinion doesn’t provide cover for the failure to deliver required records. Whether or not medical treatment was administered is not subject to one staff’s “opinion”

[michaelm]

A difference of opinion between the respective medical staff is not impossible either.

A difference of opinion doesn’t provide cover for the failure to deliver required records. Whether or not medical treatment was administered is not subject to one staff’s “opinion”

I am not arguing any of that, I don’t know all the rules but I believe strictly he wouldn’t even be allowed to talk to GSW or they to him prior to the trade given he was under contract to Portland, and that Portland absolutely could have completed the trade without talking to him and may have done so. I am addressing the question of Portland being penalised for deliberate fraud. All parties knew he was subject to a medical as I said, and GSW is obviously going to know about his health status then because he is going to tell them how he was being managed. Maybe something got overlooked in a trade deadline deal which by definition involves brinkmanship. My sole point in regard to PGII was that his reported happiness to be returning to GSW wasn’t the attitude of a man expecting to be immediately revealed as not being able to play for the rest of the season, which possibly again returns to the question of a difference of opinion between the medical staff.