KD to the Suns

[DirtyDez]

Not a Suns fan but I think it’s worth taking a look at other superstar trades compared to what you guys gave up for KD.

AD-Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Josh Hart, the No. 4 pick in the 2019 draft, a 2022 first-round pick, a pick swap in the 2023 draft and the Lakers' 2024 first-round pick with the right to defer it to 2025.

Paul George-Danilo Gallinari; Shai Gilgeous-Alexander; Miami's 2021 and 2023 first-round picks; the Clippers' 2022, 2024 and 2026 first-round picks; pick swaps in 2023 and 2025

Westbrook to Houston- Chris Paul, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2024 first-round pick (top-four protected), a 2026 first-round pick (top-four protected) and two pick swaps

Harden to Nets-Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince to Cleveland, Caris LeVert, Rodions Kurucs, as well as three first round draft picks (2022, 2024 and 2026) and four first round pick swaps (2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027)

Donovan Mitchell-Collin Sexton, Lauri Markkanen, Ochai Agbaji, unprotected first-round draft picks in 2025, 2027 and 2029. The teams will also swap their first-round drafting rights in 2026 and 2028.

Rudy Gobert-Malik Beasley, Patrick Beverley, Leandro Bolmaro, Walker Kessler (No. 22 pick in 2022 Draft), Jarred Vanderbilt, 2023 first-round pick, 2025 first-round pick, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first-round pick, 2029 first-round pick

What Phoenix traded for Durant is the going rate for a superstar and I can argue even Durant at his age might be the highest impact superstar of the bunch. I’m a Lakers fan and I have no regrets that we made the AD trade because we won a title. I actually think the Nets didn’t get a great return for a player of Durant’s caliber and the fact that you guys kept Ayton is huge, like us keeping Ingram or the Nets keeping Jarrett Allen. That’s the biggest thing when it comes to there trades, keeping enough talent to extend the window. I get it that this could all go wrong, but the Suns window had closed prior to this trade. I think the key factor is that your owner has to be willing to spend and can’t be cheap trading 1st round picks for tax savings. Take it from a Lakers fan our biggest mistake was gutting our depth for Westbrook and not paying Caruso. We’d still be a top 6 team in the West if not for those moves. Enjoy Suns fans. It’s going to be an exciting couple of years.

Some of those trade packages have fluctuated in value over the years. A year ago Ingram looked a future star and now he can’t get on the court. The Mitchell package I thought was slightly underwhelming in real time but then Markannen blew up for Utah. OKC’s return for George is clearly #1 b/c SGA is going to be a superstar. I think the Suns package would’ve been higher had Brooklyn flipped Bridges for those 4 Memphis picks (allegedly). That would’ve been 8 FRP’s for a 34 year old.

[Bogyo]

And we didn't need to add Crowder, and could have had some (light) protections on some of the picks, but our new owner got a little trigger happy. Not worth crying over now, just worth mentioning when discussing returns.

[bwgood77]

Not a Suns fan but I think it’s worth taking a look at other superstar trades compared to what you guys gave up for KD.

AD-Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Josh Hart, the No. 4 pick in the 2019 draft, a 2022 first-round pick, a pick swap in the 2023 draft and the Lakers' 2024 first-round pick with the right to defer it to 2025.

Paul George-Danilo Gallinari; Shai Gilgeous-Alexander; Miami's 2021 and 2023 first-round picks; the Clippers' 2022, 2024 and 2026 first-round picks; pick swaps in 2023 and 2025

Westbrook to Houston- Chris Paul, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2024 first-round pick (top-four protected), a 2026 first-round pick (top-four protected) and two pick swaps

Harden to Nets-Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince to Cleveland, Caris LeVert, Rodions Kurucs, as well as three first round draft picks (2022, 2024 and 2026) and four first round pick swaps (2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027)

Donovan Mitchell-Collin Sexton, Lauri Markkanen, Ochai Agbaji, unprotected first-round draft picks in 2025, 2027 and 2029. The teams will also swap their first-round drafting rights in 2026 and 2028.

Rudy Gobert-Malik Beasley, Patrick Beverley, Leandro Bolmaro, Walker Kessler (No. 22 pick in 2022 Draft), Jarred Vanderbilt, 2023 first-round pick, 2025 first-round pick, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first-round pick, 2029 first-round pick

What Phoenix traded for Durant is the going rate for a superstar and I can argue even Durant at his age might be the highest impact superstar of the bunch. I’m a Lakers fan and I have no regrets that we made the AD trade because we won a title. I actually think the Nets didn’t get a great return for a player of Durant’s caliber and the fact that you guys kept Ayton is huge, like us keeping Ingram or the Nets keeping Jarrett Allen. That’s the biggest thing when it comes to there trades, keeping enough talent to extend the window. I get it that this could all go wrong, but the Suns window had closed prior to this trade. I think the key factor is that your owner has to be willing to spend and can’t be cheap trading 1st round picks for tax savings. Take it from a Lakers fan our biggest mistake was gutting our depth for Westbrook and not paying Caruso. We’d still be a top 6 team in the West if not for those moves. Enjoy Suns fans. It’s going to be an exciting couple of years.

The package isn't bad if he has like 5 years left and stays healthy. If he is injury prone like AD or only has 2-3 years left it probably isn't worth it to me.

George got so much because the Kawhi signing hinged on it.

I think some people underestimate how good Mikal is too and how much he probably was still going to improve, even with vast improvements this year. The Nets were already offered 4 picks for him.

Then from 2026-2033 there is a decent chance the team isn't great because of lost draft picks in 2025, 27, 28 maybe, though we would get the worse of ours and the Nets, and 29, and Booker could leave if we don't sign a big name or two in 26. But we likely wouldn't have starter quality depth so it would be maybe Booker and one other FA signing (though stars are hard to sign in FA...they sometimes move but obviously only to one team with multiple teams after them) and maybe Ayton if he's kept and re-signed.

[bwgood77]

Not a Suns fan but I think it’s worth taking a look at other superstar trades compared to what you guys gave up for KD.

AD-Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Josh Hart, the No. 4 pick in the 2019 draft, a 2022 first-round pick, a pick swap in the 2023 draft and the Lakers' 2024 first-round pick with the right to defer it to 2025.

Paul George-Danilo Gallinari; Shai Gilgeous-Alexander; Miami's 2021 and 2023 first-round picks; the Clippers' 2022, 2024 and 2026 first-round picks; pick swaps in 2023 and 2025

Westbrook to Houston- Chris Paul, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2024 first-round pick (top-four protected), a 2026 first-round pick (top-four protected) and two pick swaps

Harden to Nets-Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince to Cleveland, Caris LeVert, Rodions Kurucs, as well as three first round draft picks (2022, 2024 and 2026) and four first round pick swaps (2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027)

Donovan Mitchell-Collin Sexton, Lauri Markkanen, Ochai Agbaji, unprotected first-round draft picks in 2025, 2027 and 2029. The teams will also swap their first-round drafting rights in 2026 and 2028.

Rudy Gobert-Malik Beasley, Patrick Beverley, Leandro Bolmaro, Walker Kessler (No. 22 pick in 2022 Draft), Jarred Vanderbilt, 2023 first-round pick, 2025 first-round pick, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first-round pick, 2029 first-round pick

What Phoenix traded for Durant is the going rate for a superstar and I can argue even Durant at his age might be the highest impact superstar of the bunch. I’m a Lakers fan and I have no regrets that we made the AD trade because we won a title. I actually think the Nets didn’t get a great return for a player of Durant’s caliber and the fact that you guys kept Ayton is huge, like us keeping Ingram or the Nets keeping Jarrett Allen. That’s the biggest thing when it comes to there trades, keeping enough talent to extend the window. I get it that this could all go wrong, but the Suns window had closed prior to this trade. I think the key factor is that your owner has to be willing to spend and can’t be cheap trading 1st round picks for tax savings. Take it from a Lakers fan our biggest mistake was gutting our depth for Westbrook and not paying Caruso. We’d still be a top 6 team in the West if not for those moves. Enjoy Suns fans. It’s going to be an exciting couple of years.

Some of those trade packages have fluctuated in value over the years. A year ago Ingram looked a future star and now he can’t get on the court. The Mitchell package I thought was slightly underwhelming in real time but then Markannen blew up for Utah. OKC’s return for George is clearly #1 b/c SGA is going to be a superstar. I think the Suns package would’ve been higher had Brooklyn flipped Bridges for those 4 Memphis picks (allegedly). That would’ve been 8 FRP’s for a 34 year old.

Yeah, the Mitchell package at the time didn't seem great, given how Lauri was playing. It would likely be similar to a Booker package. With KD's age, we gave up a lot, but if he's healthy and lasts a while, it's ok. The main reason it took so much for KD is that he's under contract for 3.5 years. Trades like that never happen.

[Saberestar]

Not a Suns fan but I think it’s worth taking a look at other superstar trades compared to what you guys gave up for KD.

AD-Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Josh Hart, the No. 4 pick in the 2019 draft, a 2022 first-round pick, a pick swap in the 2023 draft and the Lakers' 2024 first-round pick with the right to defer it to 2025.

Paul George-Danilo Gallinari; Shai Gilgeous-Alexander; Miami's 2021 and 2023 first-round picks; the Clippers' 2022, 2024 and 2026 first-round picks; pick swaps in 2023 and 2025

Westbrook to Houston- Chris Paul, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2024 first-round pick (top-four protected), a 2026 first-round pick (top-four protected) and two pick swaps

Harden to Nets-Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince to Cleveland, Caris LeVert, Rodions Kurucs, as well as three first round draft picks (2022, 2024 and 2026) and four first round pick swaps (2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027)

Donovan Mitchell-Collin Sexton, Lauri Markkanen, Ochai Agbaji, unprotected first-round draft picks in 2025, 2027 and 2029. The teams will also swap their first-round drafting rights in 2026 and 2028.

Rudy Gobert-Malik Beasley, Patrick Beverley, Leandro Bolmaro, Walker Kessler (No. 22 pick in 2022 Draft), Jarred Vanderbilt, 2023 first-round pick, 2025 first-round pick, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first-round pick, 2029 first-round pick

What Phoenix traded for Durant is the going rate for a superstar and I can argue even Durant at his age might be the highest impact superstar of the bunch. I’m a Lakers fan and I have no regrets that we made the AD trade because we won a title. I actually think the Nets didn’t get a great return for a player of Durant’s caliber and the fact that you guys kept Ayton is huge, like us keeping Ingram or the Nets keeping Jarrett Allen. That’s the biggest thing when it comes to there trades, keeping enough talent to extend the window. I get it that this could all go wrong, but the Suns window had closed prior to this trade. I think the key factor is that your owner has to be willing to spend and can’t be cheap trading 1st round picks for tax savings. Take it from a Lakers fan our biggest mistake was gutting our depth for Westbrook and not paying Caruso. We’d still be a top 6 team in the West if not for those moves. Enjoy Suns fans. It’s going to be an exciting couple of years.

The package isn't bad if he has like 5 years left and stays healthy. If he is injury prone like AD or only has 2-3 years left it probably isn't worth it to me.

George got so much because the Kawhi signing hinged on it.

I think some people underestimate how good Mikal is too and how much he probably was still going to improve, even with vast improvements this year. The Nets were already offered 4 picks for him.

Then from 2026-2033 there is a decent chance the team isn't great because of lost draft picks in 2025, 27, 28 maybe, though we would get the worse of ours and the Nets, and 29, and Booker could leave if we don't sign a big name or two in 26. But we likely wouldn't have starter quality depth so it would be maybe Booker and one other FA signing (though stars are hard to sign in FA...they sometimes move but obviously only to one team with multiple teams after them) and maybe Ayton if he's kept and re-signed.

These days everything change superfast in the league, it's absolutely impossible to know how great or bad we will be in 2026.. needless to say about 2033.

All rosters change a lot from year to year. It doesn’t makes sense to think longer than that. You have seen this week how quickly everything can be completely different with just one big trade.

[SunsRback4Good]

Not a Suns fan but I think it’s worth taking a look at other superstar trades compared to what you guys gave up for KD.

AD-Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Josh Hart, the No. 4 pick in the 2019 draft, a 2022 first-round pick, a pick swap in the 2023 draft and the Lakers' 2024 first-round pick with the right to defer it to 2025.

Paul George-Danilo Gallinari; Shai Gilgeous-Alexander; Miami's 2021 and 2023 first-round picks; the Clippers' 2022, 2024 and 2026 first-round picks; pick swaps in 2023 and 2025

Westbrook to Houston- Chris Paul, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2024 first-round pick (top-four protected), a 2026 first-round pick (top-four protected) and two pick swaps

Harden to Nets-Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince to Cleveland, Caris LeVert, Rodions Kurucs, as well as three first round draft picks (2022, 2024 and 2026) and four first round pick swaps (2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027)

Donovan Mitchell-Collin Sexton, Lauri Markkanen, Ochai Agbaji, unprotected first-round draft picks in 2025, 2027 and 2029. The teams will also swap their first-round drafting rights in 2026 and 2028.

Rudy Gobert-Malik Beasley, Patrick Beverley, Leandro Bolmaro, Walker Kessler (No. 22 pick in 2022 Draft), Jarred Vanderbilt, 2023 first-round pick, 2025 first-round pick, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first-round pick, 2029 first-round pick

What Phoenix traded for Durant is the going rate for a superstar and I can argue even Durant at his age might be the highest impact superstar of the bunch. I’m a Lakers fan and I have no regrets that we made the AD trade because we won a title. I actually think the Nets didn’t get a great return for a player of Durant’s caliber and the fact that you guys kept Ayton is huge, like us keeping Ingram or the Nets keeping Jarrett Allen. That’s the biggest thing when it comes to there trades, keeping enough talent to extend the window. I get it that this could all go wrong, but the Suns window had closed prior to this trade. I think the key factor is that your owner has to be willing to spend and can’t be cheap trading 1st round picks for tax savings. Take it from a Lakers fan our biggest mistake was gutting our depth for Westbrook and not paying Caruso. We’d still be a top 6 team in the West if not for those moves. Enjoy Suns fans. It’s going to be an exciting couple of years.

The package isn't bad if he has like 5 years left and stays healthy. If he is injury prone like AD or only has 2-3 years left it probably isn't worth it to me.

George got so much because the Kawhi signing hinged on it.

I think some people underestimate how good Mikal is too and how much he probably was still going to improve, even with vast improvements this year. The Nets were already offered 4 picks for him.

Then from 2026-2033 there is a decent chance the team isn't great because of lost draft picks in 2025, 27, 28 maybe, though we would get the worse of ours and the Nets, and 29, and Booker could leave if we don't sign a big name or two in 26. But we likely wouldn't have starter quality depth so it would be maybe Booker and one other FA signing (though stars are hard to sign in FA...they sometimes move but obviously only to one team with multiple teams after them) and maybe Ayton if he's kept and re-signed.

These days everything change superfast in the league, it's absolutely impossible to know how great or bad we will be in 2026.. needless to say about 2033.

All rosters change a lot from year to year. It doesn’t makes sense to think longer than that. You have seen this week how quickly everything can be completely different with just one big trade.

Good points. You just can’t tell what will pan out and what won’t. I mean, I assumed the Nets back in 21 when they have big 3 plus Harris who was a shooting sniper would win a few rings by 2025 yet that didn’t happen as their team had chemistry issues + injuries. Who knows where Ayton and Book will be in 2027.

[sashaturiaf]

Not a Suns fan but I think it’s worth taking a look at other superstar trades compared to what you guys gave up for KD.

AD-Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, Josh Hart, the No. 4 pick in the 2019 draft, a 2022 first-round pick, a pick swap in the 2023 draft and the Lakers' 2024 first-round pick with the right to defer it to 2025.

Paul George-Danilo Gallinari; Shai Gilgeous-Alexander; Miami's 2021 and 2023 first-round picks; the Clippers' 2022, 2024 and 2026 first-round picks; pick swaps in 2023 and 2025

Westbrook to Houston- Chris Paul, a 2021 first-round pick, a 2024 first-round pick (top-four protected), a 2026 first-round pick (top-four protected) and two pick swaps

Harden to Nets-Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince to Cleveland, Caris LeVert, Rodions Kurucs, as well as three first round draft picks (2022, 2024 and 2026) and four first round pick swaps (2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027)

Donovan Mitchell-Collin Sexton, Lauri Markkanen, Ochai Agbaji, unprotected first-round draft picks in 2025, 2027 and 2029. The teams will also swap their first-round drafting rights in 2026 and 2028.

Rudy Gobert-Malik Beasley, Patrick Beverley, Leandro Bolmaro, Walker Kessler (No. 22 pick in 2022 Draft), Jarred Vanderbilt, 2023 first-round pick, 2025 first-round pick, 2026 pick swap, 2027 first-round pick, 2029 first-round pick

What Phoenix traded for Durant is the going rate for a superstar and I can argue even Durant at his age might be the highest impact superstar of the bunch. I’m a Lakers fan and I have no regrets that we made the AD trade because we won a title. I actually think the Nets didn’t get a great return for a player of Durant’s caliber and the fact that you guys kept Ayton is huge, like us keeping Ingram or the Nets keeping Jarrett Allen. That’s the biggest thing when it comes to there trades, keeping enough talent to extend the window. I get it that this could all go wrong, but the Suns window had closed prior to this trade. I think the key factor is that your owner has to be willing to spend and can’t be cheap trading 1st round picks for tax savings. Take it from a Lakers fan our biggest mistake was gutting our depth for Westbrook and not paying Caruso. We’d still be a top 6 team in the West if not for those moves. Enjoy Suns fans. It’s going to be an exciting couple of years.

KD is the oldest guy in the list but also the best. Given the Suns are 1 move away and KD wants to be here, this is a move you gotta make. Scared money don't make money and all that...

The outlier there is Gobert. Ouch, can you even get 1 pick back for him now? He's still a good player but that contract.. The 2nd Harden trade to Brooklyn was pretty bad too. Ben Simmons who's now a negative asset and 2 picks only

[lilfishi22]

There's clearly merit on both approaches.

Quite simply:

Do you want to give yourself the best opportunity you're *likely* to get to become a tier 1 contender at the cost of everything plus the kitchen sink?

Or do you want to keep running with the fun group of guys, keep all of your assets and maybe, hopefully one day become a tier 1 contender?

I can see an argument on both sides and while I'm sure many aren't happy with Ishbia (I'm not all that happy) because he came in and shipped off the most beloved Suns player since maybe Nash and also gave up the war chest of picks, I'm starting to see the other side. Playing the devil's advocate here, there's merit in someone from the outside coming in and making the difficult decisions. That often happens with a new owner comes into a new business and starts making drastic changes which aren't always going to be popular. It doesn't always work out but ultimately, if we didn't have someone like Ishbia making the difficult calls to move those picks and the Twins, we just wouldn't have a top 15 player of all time who imo is still in his prime to not only keep the window open but give us the best chance to win a title.

What happens in 2025 and onwards....nobody knows. There's a chance the twins may have been split up anyway to improve the team. There's a good chance DA is gone anyway. There's every possibility the core we know and love wouldn't have stayed together for the long term. Sure we'll have all our picks and if things don't work out with the core, we'll just start over again but picks doesn't get us closer to a championship, like a Kevin Durant does.

I'm still trying to mentally accept that the Twins are no longer part of the Suns organisation and it still kinda feels like a nightmare I'm trying to wake up from but honestly, when was the last time the Phoenix Suns organisation genuinely walked the walked and not just talked the talk when it comes to doing what's necessary to win it all? Maybe with the Barkley trade? There were enough cost cutting moves during the SSOL era to suggest we did a little more than the bare minimum without going all in. What about the last two seasons? CP3 moved our timeline forward but we didn't make any major moves to say we're going all in. This is that all-in move

[BobbieL]

And we didn't need to add Crowder, and could have had some (light) protections on some of the picks, but our new owner got a little trigger happy. Not worth crying over now, just worth mentioning when discussing returns.

Exactly
Crowder could have been multiple seconds
Kept Mikal and Cam
Trade a FRP

Oh well ..Durant needs to be KD

[Paradise]

Yeah, I was just thinking that KD needs to adapt here a bit. Good thing he is one of the best ever to touch a basketball.
He needs to be more focused on defense, and rebound more. The 1,5 blocks per game is not a bad start. But we definatley lost a lot on peremiter defense with the twins going out, and KD just can't cover that due to his frame, age, and leg injuries. However, he should be able to adjust to play a little "bigger" on defense - get more rebounds, protect the rim, be a secondary line of defense when the peremiter D gets beat or switched. That way our peremiter defenders can be more agressive a bit, plus Ayton needs all the help back there, or he will be in constant foul trouble with the guards/wings driving on him when they beat GrandPaul (or Book). So all in all, our defense would become more paint / defensive rebounds oriented (Craig/Bazley also big wings) from peremiter oriented, and hopefully does not fall off a cliff. If your are not a top 5 (top7?) defensive team you are not winning a chapionship. This much we know.

KD is a shutdown 1v1 defender when he feels like it (ask Doncic) but his biggest strength on defense is as a help defender where his length, IQ and mobility alters a bunch of shots. His best defensive seasons (GSW 1st season and this Brooklyn season) have all come in that role alongside more physical goons taking the on-ball assignments. Defensive rebounding is his worst trait on defense since he doesn't box out at all but he still gets some due to his size.

He'll fit right in here

I’d disagree.

He does box out, he rebounds at a high level but he won’t likely compete every night for a defensive rebound in traffic if it’s a big who’s stronger or bigger. He will avoid the physical nature during the regular season....unless it’s Embiid. Embiid is the only big man KD LOVES to hate and he will try himself to guard and out rebound. He picks and chooses his battles.

[suns12345]

There's clearly merit on both approaches.

Quite simply:

Do you want to give yourself the best opportunity you're *likely* to get to become a tier 1 contender at the cost of everything plus the kitchen sink?

Or do you want to keep running with the fun group of guys, keep all of your assets and maybe, hopefully one day become a tier 1 contender?

I can see an argument on both sides and while I'm sure many aren't happy with Ishbia (I'm not all that happy) because he came in and shipped off the most beloved Suns player since maybe Nash and also gave up the war chest of picks, I'm starting to see the other side. Playing the devil's advocate here, there's merit in someone from the outside coming in and making the difficult decisions. That often happens with a new owner comes into a new business and starts making drastic changes which aren't always going to be popular. It doesn't always work out but ultimately, if we didn't have someone like Ishbia making the difficult calls to move those picks and the Twins, we just wouldn't have a top 15 player of all time who imo is still in his prime to not only keep the window open but give us the best chance to win a title.

What happens in 2025 and onwards....nobody knows. There's a chance the twins may have been split up anyway to improve the team. There's a good chance DA is gone anyway. There's every possibility the core we know and love wouldn't have stayed together for the long term. Sure we'll have all our picks and if things don't work out with the core, we'll just start over again but picks doesn't get us closer to a championship, like a Kevin Durant does.

I'm still trying to mentally accept that the Twins are no longer part of the Suns organisation and it still kinda feels like a nightmare I'm trying to wake up from but honestly, when was the last time the Phoenix Suns organisation genuinely walked the walked and not just talked the talk when it comes to doing what's necessary to win it all? Maybe with the Barkley trade? There were enough cost cutting moves during the SSOL era to suggest we did a little more than the bare minimum without going all in. What about the last two seasons? CP3 moved our timeline forward but we didn't make any major moves to say we're going all in. This is that all-in move

This is a good summary and I tend to agree. I'm coming around to the trade. I think, like any JJ trade so far, you certainly question the efficient use of assets and if we could have given up less or received more. But we aren't part of those conversations so it's only speculation.

Your comment made me think that this trade with Ishbia is better than this trade with Sarver when we had a similarly good, on the verge of really contending team: "The Phoenix Suns today traded center Kurt Thomas and two future first-round draft picks to the Seattle SuperSonics for a future conditional second-round pick. In addition to salary cap relief, the trade leaves Phoenix with an $8 million trade exception for their use in future dealings."

So it could be worse.

[lilfishi22]

There's clearly merit on both approaches.

Quite simply:

Do you want to give yourself the best opportunity you're *likely* to get to become a tier 1 contender at the cost of everything plus the kitchen sink?

Or do you want to keep running with the fun group of guys, keep all of your assets and maybe, hopefully one day become a tier 1 contender?

I can see an argument on both sides and while I'm sure many aren't happy with Ishbia (I'm not all that happy) because he came in and shipped off the most beloved Suns player since maybe Nash and also gave up the war chest of picks, I'm starting to see the other side. Playing the devil's advocate here, there's merit in someone from the outside coming in and making the difficult decisions. That often happens with a new owner comes into a new business and starts making drastic changes which aren't always going to be popular. It doesn't always work out but ultimately, if we didn't have someone like Ishbia making the difficult calls to move those picks and the Twins, we just wouldn't have a top 15 player of all time who imo is still in his prime to not only keep the window open but give us the best chance to win a title.

What happens in 2025 and onwards....nobody knows. There's a chance the twins may have been split up anyway to improve the team. There's a good chance DA is gone anyway. There's every possibility the core we know and love wouldn't have stayed together for the long term. Sure we'll have all our picks and if things don't work out with the core, we'll just start over again but picks doesn't get us closer to a championship, like a Kevin Durant does.

I'm still trying to mentally accept that the Twins are no longer part of the Suns organisation and it still kinda feels like a nightmare I'm trying to wake up from but honestly, when was the last time the Phoenix Suns organisation genuinely walked the walked and not just talked the talk when it comes to doing what's necessary to win it all? Maybe with the Barkley trade? There were enough cost cutting moves during the SSOL era to suggest we did a little more than the bare minimum without going all in. What about the last two seasons? CP3 moved our timeline forward but we didn't make any major moves to say we're going all in. This is that all-in move

This is a good summary and I tend to agree. I'm coming around to the trade. I think, like any JJ trade so far, you certainly question the efficient use of assets and if we could have given up less or received more. But we aren't part of those conversations so it's only speculation.

Your comment made me think that this trade with Ishbia is better than this trade with Sarver when we had a similarly good, on the verge of really contending team: "The Phoenix Suns today traded center Kurt Thomas and two future first-round draft picks to the Seattle SuperSonics for a future conditional second-round pick. In addition to salary cap relief, the trade leaves Phoenix with an $8 million trade exception for their use in future dealings."

So it could be worse.

This just isn't a trade Sarver would've done I don't believe. CP3 was a gamble but given what we gave up, it wasn't really an all-in move imo. It felt like an all-in move at the time but ultimately, we traded away two guys who were with the team for no longer than 2 seasons and a FRP (which turned in the #30, Peyton Watson ). But for all the talk about Sarver willing to deep into the luxury tax for a winner etc etc, he only ever ended up paying like $14m or something in total during his ownership of the team so just factually, he hasn't really walked the walk. But trading everything and the kitchen sink for a top 15 player of all time to add to a contender is an all-in move. Ishbia has backed up his talk about building a contender already by going something like $40m in the luxury tax this season with this trade.

I'll never be happy we traded away Mikal but when it comes down to it, we're not here just to watch guys develop into a good player and feel good about it. Yes, it's part of the journey but we're here to win it all. Ishbia made the call to go ahead with this win now move and here we are. I'm a risk averse person myself so I probably wouldn't have gone through with the deal but adding a KD to Book, CP3 and DA is objectively putting your best foot forward to winning a title.

[bwgood77]

The package isn't bad if he has like 5 years left and stays healthy. If he is injury prone like AD or only has 2-3 years left it probably isn't worth it to me.

George got so much because the Kawhi signing hinged on it.

I think some people underestimate how good Mikal is too and how much he probably was still going to improve, even with vast improvements this year. The Nets were already offered 4 picks for him.

Then from 2026-2033 there is a decent chance the team isn't great because of lost draft picks in 2025, 27, 28 maybe, though we would get the worse of ours and the Nets, and 29, and Booker could leave if we don't sign a big name or two in 26. But we likely wouldn't have starter quality depth so it would be maybe Booker and one other FA signing (though stars are hard to sign in FA...they sometimes move but obviously only to one team with multiple teams after them) and maybe Ayton if he's kept and re-signed.

These days everything change superfast in the league, it's absolutely impossible to know how great or bad we will be in 2026.. needless to say about 2033.

All rosters change a lot from year to year. It doesn’t makes sense to think longer than that. You have seen this week how quickly everything can be completely different with just one big trade.

Good points. You just can’t tell what will pan out and what won’t. I mean, I assumed the Nets back in 21 when they have big 3 plus Harris who was a shooting sniper would win a few rings by 2025 yet that didn’t happen as their team had chemistry issues + injuries. Who knows where Ayton and Book will be in 2027.

Yeah, if we can sign someone in FA, or after Paul and KD leave make a big Booker trade for a super haul, it would depend. Big stars rarely move in FA except KD twice, LeBron twice and Kyrie...and usually move via trade. And we won't have much for trade assets with maybe only one young player we draft in 24, Booker and Ayton, while other teams have warchests of trade assets.

[bwgood77]

There's clearly merit on both approaches.

Quite simply:

Do you want to give yourself the best opportunity you're *likely* to get to become a tier 1 contender at the cost of everything plus the kitchen sink?

Or do you want to keep running with the fun group of guys, keep all of your assets and maybe, hopefully one day become a tier 1 contender?

I can see an argument on both sides and while I'm sure many aren't happy with Ishbia (I'm not all that happy) because he came in and shipped off the most beloved Suns player since maybe Nash and also gave up the war chest of picks, I'm starting to see the other side. Playing the devil's advocate here, there's merit in someone from the outside coming in and making the difficult decisions. That often happens with a new owner comes into a new business and starts making drastic changes which aren't always going to be popular. It doesn't always work out but ultimately, if we didn't have someone like Ishbia making the difficult calls to move those picks and the Twins, we just wouldn't have a top 15 player of all time who imo is still in his prime to not only keep the window open but give us the best chance to win a title.

What happens in 2025 and onwards....nobody knows. There's a chance the twins may have been split up anyway to improve the team. There's a good chance DA is gone anyway. There's every possibility the core we know and love wouldn't have stayed together for the long term. Sure we'll have all our picks and if things don't work out with the core, we'll just start over again but picks doesn't get us closer to a championship, like a Kevin Durant does.

I'm still trying to mentally accept that the Twins are no longer part of the Suns organisation and it still kinda feels like a nightmare I'm trying to wake up from but honestly, when was the last time the Phoenix Suns organisation genuinely walked the walked and not just talked the talk when it comes to doing what's necessary to win it all? Maybe with the Barkley trade? There were enough cost cutting moves during the SSOL era to suggest we did a little more than the bare minimum without going all in. What about the last two seasons? CP3 moved our timeline forward but we didn't make any major moves to say we're going all in. This is that all-in move

This is a good summary and I tend to agree. I'm coming around to the trade. I think, like any JJ trade so far, you certainly question the efficient use of assets and if we could have given up less or received more. But we aren't part of those conversations so it's only speculation.

Your comment made me think that this trade with Ishbia is better than this trade with Sarver when we had a similarly good, on the verge of really contending team: "The Phoenix Suns today traded center Kurt Thomas and two future first-round draft picks to the Seattle SuperSonics for a future conditional second-round pick. In addition to salary cap relief, the trade leaves Phoenix with an $8 million trade exception for their use in future dealings."

So it could be worse.

This just isn't a trade Sarver would've done I don't believe. CP3 was a gamble but given what we gave up, it wasn't really an all-in move imo. It felt like an all-in move at the time but ultimately, we traded away two guys who were with the team for no longer than 2 seasons and a FRP (which turned in the #30, Peyton Watson ). But for all the talk about Sarver willing to deep into the luxury tax for a winner etc etc, he only ever ended up paying like $14m or something in total during his ownership of the team so just factually, he hasn't really walked the walk. But trading everything and the kitchen sink for a top 15 player of all time to add to a contender is an all-in move. Ishbia has backed up his talk about building a contender already by going something like $40m in the luxury tax this season with this trade.

I'll never be happy we traded away Mikal but when it comes down to it, we're not here just to watch guys develop into a good player and feel good about it. Yes, it's part of the journey but we're here to win it all. Ishbia made the call to go ahead with this win now move and here we are. I'm a risk averse person myself so I probably wouldn't have gone through with the deal but adding a KD to Book, CP3 and DA is objectively putting your best foot forward to winning a title.

Yeah, for Book, KD and Paul it definitely gives them a better chance at a title IF they stay healthy the rest of the season (and they haven't all been healthy at the same time yet) and maybe the next season or two, though not sure how much time CP3 has left. He looked finished earlier.

So for Book he gets to go all in and long term, if we don't have the pieces he can go to another team via trade or FA, though we have him locked up for awhile.

For fans it depends on what you watch for..players you love watching and a competitive team, only for a chance at a title regardless of sacrificing future, etc.

[sashaturiaf]

There's clearly merit on both approaches.

Quite simply:

Do you want to give yourself the best opportunity you're *likely* to get to become a tier 1 contender at the cost of everything plus the kitchen sink?

Or do you want to keep running with the fun group of guys, keep all of your assets and maybe, hopefully one day become a tier 1 contender?

I can see an argument on both sides and while I'm sure many aren't happy with Ishbia (I'm not all that happy) because he came in and shipped off the most beloved Suns player since maybe Nash and also gave up the war chest of picks, I'm starting to see the other side. Playing the devil's advocate here, there's merit in someone from the outside coming in and making the difficult decisions. That often happens with a new owner comes into a new business and starts making drastic changes which aren't always going to be popular. It doesn't always work out but ultimately, if we didn't have someone like Ishbia making the difficult calls to move those picks and the Twins, we just wouldn't have a top 15 player of all time who imo is still in his prime to not only keep the window open but give us the best chance to win a title.

What happens in 2025 and onwards....nobody knows. There's a chance the twins may have been split up anyway to improve the team. There's a good chance DA is gone anyway. There's every possibility the core we know and love wouldn't have stayed together for the long term. Sure we'll have all our picks and if things don't work out with the core, we'll just start over again but picks doesn't get us closer to a championship, like a Kevin Durant does.

I'm still trying to mentally accept that the Twins are no longer part of the Suns organisation and it still kinda feels like a nightmare I'm trying to wake up from but honestly, when was the last time the Phoenix Suns organisation genuinely walked the walked and not just talked the talk when it comes to doing what's necessary to win it all? Maybe with the Barkley trade? There were enough cost cutting moves during the SSOL era to suggest we did a little more than the bare minimum without going all in. What about the last two seasons? CP3 moved our timeline forward but we didn't make any major moves to say we're going all in. This is that all-in move

That's the difference between Sarver and Ishbia. Ishibia is willing to do whatever it takes for a shot at the title, Sarver simply wasn't.

The fact the Suns turned into an elite team in the West wasn't even by design under Sarver, per my recollection the Suns were an up and coming young team who were still below .500 but traded for an expiring CP3 as a near zero risk move. Nobody could have expected how much CP3 elevated the team along with the organic growth alongside him.

[lilfishi22]

This is a good summary and I tend to agree. I'm coming around to the trade. I think, like any JJ trade so far, you certainly question the efficient use of assets and if we could have given up less or received more. But we aren't part of those conversations so it's only speculation.

Your comment made me think that this trade with Ishbia is better than this trade with Sarver when we had a similarly good, on the verge of really contending team: "The Phoenix Suns today traded center Kurt Thomas and two future first-round draft picks to the Seattle SuperSonics for a future conditional second-round pick. In addition to salary cap relief, the trade leaves Phoenix with an $8 million trade exception for their use in future dealings."

So it could be worse.

This just isn't a trade Sarver would've done I don't believe. CP3 was a gamble but given what we gave up, it wasn't really an all-in move imo. It felt like an all-in move at the time but ultimately, we traded away two guys who were with the team for no longer than 2 seasons and a FRP (which turned in the #30, Peyton Watson ). But for all the talk about Sarver willing to deep into the luxury tax for a winner etc etc, he only ever ended up paying like $14m or something in total during his ownership of the team so just factually, he hasn't really walked the walk. But trading everything and the kitchen sink for a top 15 player of all time to add to a contender is an all-in move. Ishbia has backed up his talk about building a contender already by going something like $40m in the luxury tax this season with this trade.

I'll never be happy we traded away Mikal but when it comes down to it, we're not here just to watch guys develop into a good player and feel good about it. Yes, it's part of the journey but we're here to win it all. Ishbia made the call to go ahead with this win now move and here we are. I'm a risk averse person myself so I probably wouldn't have gone through with the deal but adding a KD to Book, CP3 and DA is objectively putting your best foot forward to winning a title.

Yeah, for Book, KD and Paul it definitely gives them a better chance at a title IF they stay healthy the rest of the season (and they haven't all been healthy at the same time yet) and maybe the next season or two, though not sure how much time CP3 has left. He looked finished earlier.

So for Book he gets to go all in and long term, if we don't have the pieces he can go to another team via trade or FA, though we have him locked up for awhile.

For fans it depends on what you watch for..players you love watching and a competitive team, only for a chance at a title regardless of sacrificing future, etc.

This move is certainly as much about giving Book, CP3 and the SUns the best opportunity to win it all as it is (imo) about letting our franchise guy know this owner is not here to muck about. As in even if we don't win it all over the next few years, Ishbia is committed to staying competitive and if the opportunity is there to get better, he'll do it. Like I don't Ishbia bought this team for one run. I think he'll do what's necessary to make the Phoenix Suns an even more attractive destination for free agents other disgruntled stars as Jones had started to do with the culture change. Not saying we're going to be a perennial 50 win team like the Spurs of old but given what we've given up in draft capital, we're almost certainly not going to go through another long period of 20 win seasons.

Just reading the tea leaves a little bit, this move by Ishbia is giving me mo

[Calvin Klein]

And we didn't need to add Crowder, and could have had some (light) protections on some of the picks, but our new owner got a little trigger happy. Not worth crying over now, just worth mentioning when discussing returns.

Nets knew Ishbia was desperate for a big move. They asked for everything and he gave it to them.

[bwgood77]

This just isn't a trade Sarver would've done I don't believe. CP3 was a gamble but given what we gave up, it wasn't really an all-in move imo. It felt like an all-in move at the time but ultimately, we traded away two guys who were with the team for no longer than 2 seasons and a FRP (which turned in the #30, Peyton Watson ). But for all the talk about Sarver willing to deep into the luxury tax for a winner etc etc, he only ever ended up paying like $14m or something in total during his ownership of the team so just factually, he hasn't really walked the walk. But trading everything and the kitchen sink for a top 15 player of all time to add to a contender is an all-in move. Ishbia has backed up his talk about building a contender already by going something like $40m in the luxury tax this season with this trade.

I'll never be happy we traded away Mikal but when it comes down to it, we're not here just to watch guys develop into a good player and feel good about it. Yes, it's part of the journey but we're here to win it all. Ishbia made the call to go ahead with this win now move and here we are. I'm a risk averse person myself so I probably wouldn't have gone through with the deal but adding a KD to Book, CP3 and DA is objectively putting your best foot forward to winning a title.

Yeah, for Book, KD and Paul it definitely gives them a better chance at a title IF they stay healthy the rest of the season (and they haven't all been healthy at the same time yet) and maybe the next season or two, though not sure how much time CP3 has left. He looked finished earlier.

So for Book he gets to go all in and long term, if we don't have the pieces he can go to another team via trade or FA, though we have him locked up for awhile.

For fans it depends on what you watch for..players you love watching and a competitive team, only for a chance at a title regardless of sacrificing future, etc.

This move is certainly as much about giving Book, CP3 and the SUns the best opportunity to win it all as it is (imo) about letting our franchise guy know this owner is not here to muck about. As in even if we don't win it all over the next few years, Ishbia is committed to staying competitive and if the opportunity is there to get better, he'll do it. Like I don't Ishbia bought this team for one run. I think he'll do what's necessary to make the Phoenix Suns an even more attractive destination for free agents other disgruntled stars as Jones had started to do with the culture change. Not saying we're going to be a perennial 50 win team like the Spurs of old but given what we've given up in draft capital, we're almost certainly not going to go through another long period of 20 win seasons.

Just reading the tea leaves a little bit, this move by Ishbia is giving me mo

Well of course he is going to try to stay competitive and get better. Just harder to do without draft picks and trade assets. Got to get lucky in FA. You can be willing to spend but miss out on FA. We may be a destination but you had several destination teams going for Kawhi and he went to the Clips. The Lakers will be a team people want to go to post LeBron as well. We will just have so many fewer avenues to stay competitive after the next few years than most other good young teams in the west (and now we went from being young to being very old). I don't doubt his commitment but there are many GMs with experience who have pretty competitive teams already along with a lot of young talent and a ton of draft picks to use to get better or for a trade for a star at some point.

[lilfishi22]

Yeah, for Book, KD and Paul it definitely gives them a better chance at a title IF they stay healthy the rest of the season (and they haven't all been healthy at the same time yet) and maybe the next season or two, though not sure how much time CP3 has left. He looked finished earlier.

So for Book he gets to go all in and long term, if we don't have the pieces he can go to another team via trade or FA, though we have him locked up for awhile.

For fans it depends on what you watch for..players you love watching and a competitive team, only for a chance at a title regardless of sacrificing future, etc.

This move is certainly as much about giving Book, CP3 and the SUns the best opportunity to win it all as it is (imo) about letting our franchise guy know this owner is not here to muck about. As in even if we don't win it all over the next few years, Ishbia is committed to staying competitive and if the opportunity is there to get better, he'll do it. Like I don't Ishbia bought this team for one run. I think he'll do what's necessary to make the Phoenix Suns an even more attractive destination for free agents other disgruntled stars as Jones had started to do with the culture change. Not saying we're going to be a perennial 50 win team like the Spurs of old but given what we've given up in draft capital, we're almost certainly not going to go through another long period of 20 win seasons.

Just reading the tea leaves a little bit, this move by Ishbia is giving me mo

Well of course he is going to try to stay competitive and get better. Just harder to do without draft picks and trade assets. Got to get lucky in FA. You can be willing to spend but miss out on FA. We may be a destination but you had several destination teams going for Kawhi and he went to the Clips. The Lakers will be a team people want to go to post LeBron as well. We will just have so many fewer avenues to stay competitive after the next few years than most other good young teams in the west (and now we went from being young to being very old). I don't doubt his commitment but there are many GMs with experience who have pretty competitive teams already along with a lot of young talent and a ton of draft picks to use to get better or for a trade for a star at some point.

Yes and the draft isn't the only way to build a team. And we also have alternate year picks so we're not totally down to zero. Just based on what Isaiah Thomas tweeted about the Suns being a destination now that Sarver is gone, I do think we're in a better position than ever to convince a star FA to join us. As for the front office, I don't doubt there is likely a change incoming. With Jones getting promoted to President of Basketball Ops (and also still GM), he could be relinquishing the day to day GM role and another GM with more experience could be hired. Also wouldn't put it past Ishbia to move on from Jones altogether and bring in his own guys.

Read on Twitter

I'm not pretending, nor should anyone pretend this move isn't without risks and I presume Ishbia knows this is a big time gamble so it could certainly backfire and we could look like the Nets after they realised Garnett/PP were both pretty cooked but it is what it is. And even then the Nets were only out of the playoff picture for 3 years and made a couple of smart picks in the late 20's (Allen and Levert) before they started to make noise again. Deal is done and whatever happens, happens. I only hope we win it all to make Mikal's sacrifice worth it

[garrick]

This move is certainly as much about giving Book, CP3 and the SUns the best opportunity to win it all as it is (imo) about letting our franchise guy know this owner is not here to muck about. As in even if we don't win it all over the next few years, Ishbia is committed to staying competitive and if the opportunity is there to get better, he'll do it. Like I don't Ishbia bought this team for one run. I think he'll do what's necessary to make the Phoenix Suns an even more attractive destination for free agents other disgruntled stars as Jones had started to do with the culture change. Not saying we're going to be a perennial 50 win team like the Spurs of old but given what we've given up in draft capital, we're almost certainly not going to go through another long period of 20 win seasons.

Just reading the tea leaves a little bit, this move by Ishbia is giving me mo

Well of course he is going to try to stay competitive and get better. Just harder to do without draft picks and trade assets. Got to get lucky in FA. You can be willing to spend but miss out on FA. We may be a destination but you had several destination teams going for Kawhi and he went to the Clips. The Lakers will be a team people want to go to post LeBron as well. We will just have so many fewer avenues to stay competitive after the next few years than most other good young teams in the west (and now we went from being young to being very old). I don't doubt his commitment but there are many GMs with experience who have pretty competitive teams already along with a lot of young talent and a ton of draft picks to use to get better or for a trade for a star at some point.

Yes and the draft isn't the only way to build a team. And we also have alternate year picks so we're not totally down to zero. Just based on what Isaiah Thomas tweeted about the Suns being a destination now that Sarver is gone, I do think we're in a better position than ever to convince a star FA to join us. As for the front office, I don't doubt there is likely a change incoming. With Jones getting promoted to President of Basketball Ops (and also still GM), he could be relinquishing the day to day GM role and another GM with more experience could be hired. Also wouldn't put it past Ishbia to move on from Jones altogether and bring in his own guys.

Read on Twitter

I'm not pretending, nor should anyone pretend this move isn't without risks and I presume Ishbia knows this is a big time gamble so it could certainly backfire and we could look like the Nets after they realised Garnett/PP were both pretty cooked but it is what it is. And even then the Nets were only out of the playoff picture for 3 years and made a couple of smart picks in the late 20's (Allen and Levert) before they started to make noise again. Deal is done and whatever happens, happens. I only hope we win it all to make Mikal's sacrifice worth it

Phoenix just isn't a major free agent destination even when Jerry Colangelo was the owner and everyone at the time raved about how a 1st class organization that the Suns were so I doubt Ishbia being the owner would change how free agents view Phoenix. Steve Nash was the last major free agent to sign with us and that was only because the Mavs were stupid enough not to resign him for what he was asking for.

Trades and drafting is really the only way to rebuild for most teams and signing away our draft picks is putting us in a bind as we no longer have any assets to use for the next 5 years.