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Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#261 » by sidsid » Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:29 pm

Spates wrote:
sidsid wrote:
JN wrote:I don't want him to be the PG per se.

When he is assigned the point (say the games FVV was hurt), he tends to pound at the top a little more than normal, and tries to create from the top which due to his dribbling and penetration restricts lanes and his great passing skills. The games he was the point are not those he has had the most assists.

I just want him to get the ball much more in varied spots within the key. Or get him the ball when he is moving/rolling where he has a knack more than others to create. That is where he can do damage and take advantage of his +++ creation and passing skills more easily.

So there would be another PG on the floor, but they would play off the ball much more than the current PG in FVV. Frustrating thing, is that it probably could work between the two because FVV despite his struggles is a good shooter. But for whatever reasons its not working.


Who brings the ball up the floor isn't much of a concern nor really the point. You'll need another ball handler after him and Siakam, but that's more to grease the wheels for an offense than an actual role.

You can give Scottie some PNR ball handling for flavour, but what you're really looking for in an offense that fits Scottie is movement by the entire team.

The fixation on how he does when plowing through guys in an iso - in the post or the perimeter - while no one moves is exactly what's wrong with the current coaching.

You want an offense that keeps the ball moving, that puts Scottie at the center of the decision making in the middle of the floor (Siakam would also cycle into those spots) and that encourages teammates to pass the ball with the expectation that they'll likely get it back during the possession.

Barnes already has the instincts to work off of that movement to create those advantages. He's raw in a lot of offensive skills, but manipulating defenses with his passing is ready now. Just need a coach/offense who will exploit it. This has been a wasted year on that front. Team is way worse off because of it.


You might appreciate this video. It's a breakdown of the damage of good roll man can provide. I think a lot of what's here in this video can be emulated by Precious, Barnes, and Jakob.



Compare that action to this:


This is cherrypicked, of course. But it's a woefully blown 2 on 1. The roll is rarely a threat with Fred as the handler.


I have no doubt that Scottie will be able to make the passes, it's the bigger issue of the inevitable contraction of the defense. We already see it with Siakam, where opposing defenses sell out on both going under screens and dropping even deeper to contain Siakam to spots where he already operates normally: the elbow/nail.

Any action that relies on the defense respecting Scottie's pull-up will be mitigated fairly quickly. You can definitely have it as flavour, but it's not going to be bread and butter until Scottie finds spots on the floor where he's a knockdown shooter.

There are limits to what Scottie can do in iso or even 2 man games as a player and the team's lack of shooting, which is why the offense needs a complete overhaul to fit the skills of our bigs, which is passing and movement.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#262 » by Spates » Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:45 pm

sidsid wrote:
Spates wrote:
sidsid wrote:
Who brings the ball up the floor isn't much of a concern nor really the point. You'll need another ball handler after him and Siakam, but that's more to grease the wheels for an offense than an actual role.

You can give Scottie some PNR ball handling for flavour, but what you're really looking for in an offense that fits Scottie is movement by the entire team.

The fixation on how he does when plowing through guys in an iso - in the post or the perimeter - while no one moves is exactly what's wrong with the current coaching.

You want an offense that keeps the ball moving, that puts Scottie at the center of the decision making in the middle of the floor (Siakam would also cycle into those spots) and that encourages teammates to pass the ball with the expectation that they'll likely get it back during the possession.

Barnes already has the instincts to work off of that movement to create those advantages. He's raw in a lot of offensive skills, but manipulating defenses with his passing is ready now. Just need a coach/offense who will exploit it. This has been a wasted year on that front. Team is way worse off because of it.


You might appreciate this video. It's a breakdown of the damage of good roll man can provide. I think a lot of what's here in this video can be emulated by Precious, Barnes, and Jakob.



Compare that action to this:


This is cherrypicked, of course. But it's a woefully blown 2 on 1. The roll is rarely a threat with Fred as the handler.


I have no doubt that Scottie will be able to make the passes, it's the bigger issue of the inevitable contraction of the defense. We already see it with Siakam, where opposing defenses sell out on both going under screens and dropping even deeper to contain Siakam to spots where he already operates normally: the elbow/nail.

Any action that relies on the defense respecting Scottie's pull-up will be mitigated fairly quickly. You can definitely have it as flavour, but it's not going to be bread and butter until Scottie finds spots on the floor where he's a knockdown shooter.

There are limits to what Scottie can do in iso or even 2 man games as a player and the team's lack of shooting, which is why the offense needs a complete overhaul to fit the skills of our bigs, which is passing and movement.

I'm considering Scottie as the roller in these situations at least until his jumpshot tightens to a point where the defense goes over the screen. These are actions that can be run with Fred, Gary, or potentially OG as the ball handler. Precious can slip screens for lob finishes, Barnes and Poeltl can make the correct reads quickly while rolling. Because our main ball handlers don't excel at creating rim pressure with a live dribble, utilizing the roller could be the bread and butter to get the defense scrambling.

Memphis and Cleveland do not have great shooters but they're able to make their systems effective.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#263 » by HumbleRen » Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:57 pm

blastttOFF wrote:As a roll man Scottie is very good, 88th percentile with an insane eFG of 74.4% generating at an absurd 1.39 points per possession.

the frustrating piece is that the raptors only use him in 0.8 possessions as a roll man. As a reference: guys like sengun has (3.4 possessions) with (1.14 PPP & 49th percentile) and mobley (3.4 possessions) with (1.16 PPP & 51st percentile) get theirs.

In nurse's offense, they like to have him sit in spread offense at the corner as a C&S three pointer. Talk about misuse.


Nurse is horrible at putting everyone on the roster in their best spots.

He’s legitimately a horrible offensive coach in terms of the half court.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#264 » by Spates » Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:19 pm

HumbleRen wrote:
blastttOFF wrote:As a roll man Scottie is very good, 88th percentile with an insane eFG of 74.4% generating at an absurd 1.39 points per possession.

the frustrating piece is that the raptors only use him in 0.8 possessions as a roll man. As a reference: guys like sengun has (3.4 possessions) with (1.14 PPP & 49th percentile) and mobley (3.4 possessions) with (1.16 PPP & 51st percentile) get theirs.

In nurse's offense, they like to have him sit in spread offense at the corner as a C&S three pointer. Talk about misuse.


Nurse is horrible at putting everyone on the roster in their best spots.

He’s legitimately a horrible offensive coach in terms of the half court.


Maybe we've given Nick credit for Sergio Scariolo's offense.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#265 » by NBA Sheady » Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:19 pm

Kinger95 wrote:Anyone else actually notice how horrible Scottie is defending on the perimeter?


Yep.

All this talk about handing him the keys to the franchise I don't see him trying to earn them.
The good thing about BI is he can shoot over defenders.
The bad thing about BI is he can shoot over defenders.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#266 » by Tha Cynic » Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:43 pm

Highflyerwire wrote:Scotties development should be guard focused. He’s already good in the post and has good offensive awareness. He is being used as a point forward Swiss Army knife and it’s working but if his handle and explosiveness improves as well as his fluidity and balance shooting it opens so much for him and the Raptors. Obviously he’s not a pg right now but given the correct development I don’t think it’s out of the question. My main concern with SB is his shot, takes too long to setup but there are signs of improvement and potential - just needs to be worked on. He literally has had good games playing every position this year so that’s promising.



Exactly. I'm not sure why people are putting him in an box when he's still working on areas like his shot and handles. If he improves his handles even a bit, he's going to be creating off the dribble more. Some here are projecting him with zero improvement. He's not Sabonis or Jokic even today.He's somewhere in between with mediocre handles. There's no reason why he can't be a fluid forward who creates from the perimeter if he improved his handles. He also has a giant first step which pretty much works the same as a quick first step.

As for the shot, we have seen him make it consistently when the clock is winding down from mid range. I think it's just repetition.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#267 » by Tha Cynic » Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:47 pm

blastttOFF wrote:As a roll man Scottie is very good, 88th percentile with an insane eFG of 74.4% generating at an absurd 1.39 points per possession.

the frustrating piece is that the raptors only use him in 0.8 possessions as a roll man. As a reference: guys like sengun has (3.4 possessions) with (1.14 PPP & 49th percentile) and mobley (3.4 possessions) with (1.16 PPP & 51st percentile) get theirs.

In nurse's offense, they like to have him sit in spread offense at the corner as a C&S three pointer. Talk about misuse.


The issue is who's calling those plays? I'm pretty sure it's the *PG* and not Nurse.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#268 » by Spates » Mon Feb 13, 2023 10:41 pm

Tha Cynic wrote:
Highflyerwire wrote:Scotties development should be guard focused. He’s already good in the post and has good offensive awareness. He is being used as a point forward Swiss Army knife and it’s working but if his handle and explosiveness improves as well as his fluidity and balance shooting it opens so much for him and the Raptors. Obviously he’s not a pg right now but given the correct development I don’t think it’s out of the question. My main concern with SB is his shot, takes too long to setup but there are signs of improvement and potential - just needs to be worked on. He literally has had good games playing every position this year so that’s promising.



Exactly. I'm not sure why people are putting him in an box when he's still working on areas like his shot and handles. If he improves his handles even a bit, he's going to be creating off the dribble more. Some here are projecting him with zero improvement. He's not Sabonis or Jokic even today.He's somewhere in between with mediocre handles. There's no reason why he can't be a fluid forward who creates from the perimeter if he improved his handles. He also has a giant first step which pretty much works the same as a quick first step.

As for the shot, we have seen him make it consistently when the clock is winding down from mid range. I think it's just repetition.

It's not about putting anyone in a box and assigning permanence to their role. The focus is on making the most of skillsets. If Scottie rolls it's not like he'll never handle the ball. So it's better than having him stand in the corner for stretches of time. We should want him involved more period.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#269 » by Mikistan » Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:43 pm

I read the story below and thought Fred would love to do this to Scottie...

"Numerous veterans were frustrated with Hyland in the aftermath of his decision to walk off the bench, sources said. In the weeks preceding the deadline, another veteran who spoke on condition of anonymity was not displeased and understood why Bones was being shopped.

Following that game, the Nuggets went on a three-game road swing that began with a trip to New Orleans. As punishment, Hyland didn’t fly with the team. Instead, he flew commercial and met up with the team later. He wasn’t at shootaround the following day, nor was he active that night against the Pelicans. That also happened to be coach Michael Malone’s first game back from a bout with COVID. Hyland’s bench exit had come under acting head coach David Adelman’s watch.

The Nuggets initially tried to keep the fact that Hyland was available via trade relatively quiet, though multiple teams that contacted The Post in the wake of Hyland’s walk-off had already heard about the incident."
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#270 » by Mikistan » Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:44 pm

Tha Cynic wrote:
blastttOFF wrote:As a roll man Scottie is very good, 88th percentile with an insane eFG of 74.4% generating at an absurd 1.39 points per possession.

the frustrating piece is that the raptors only use him in 0.8 possessions as a roll man. As a reference: guys like sengun has (3.4 possessions) with (1.14 PPP & 49th percentile) and mobley (3.4 possessions) with (1.16 PPP & 51st percentile) get theirs.

In nurse's offense, they like to have him sit in spread offense at the corner as a C&S three pointer. Talk about misuse.


The issue is who's calling those plays? I'm pretty sure it's the *PG* and not Nurse.

This "role" is the same reason we saw Thad sitting in corners and hitting the side of the backboard on corner 3ptr attempts last game
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#271 » by will » Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:46 pm

Mikistan wrote:I read the story below and thought Fred would love to do this to Scottie...

"Numerous veterans were frustrated with Hyland in the aftermath of his decision to walk off the bench, sources said. In the weeks preceding the deadline, another veteran who spoke on condition of anonymity was not displeased and understood why Bones was being shopped.

Following that game, the Nuggets went on a three-game road swing that began with a trip to New Orleans. As punishment, Hyland didn’t fly with the team. Instead, he flew commercial and met up with the team later. He wasn’t at shootaround the following day, nor was he active that night against the Pelicans. That also happened to be coach Michael Malone’s first game back from a bout with COVID. Hyland’s bench exit had come under acting head coach David Adelman’s watch.

The Nuggets initially tried to keep the fact that Hyland was available via trade relatively quiet, though multiple teams that contacted The Post in the wake of Hyland’s walk-off had already heard about the incident."


Well that explains why Bones only went for a couple 2nd round picks. He's a nice player, has some growing up and maturing to do.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#272 » by will » Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:46 pm

Tha Cynic wrote:
blastttOFF wrote:As a roll man Scottie is very good, 88th percentile with an insane eFG of 74.4% generating at an absurd 1.39 points per possession.

the frustrating piece is that the raptors only use him in 0.8 possessions as a roll man. As a reference: guys like sengun has (3.4 possessions) with (1.14 PPP & 49th percentile) and mobley (3.4 possessions) with (1.16 PPP & 51st percentile) get theirs.

In nurse's offense, they like to have him sit in spread offense at the corner as a C&S three pointer. Talk about misuse.


The issue is who's calling those plays? I'm pretty sure it's the *PG* and not Nurse.


PGvv.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#273 » by Brinbe » Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:32 am

Read on Twitter


sad, scottie's mid-range game was solid last year and its regressed.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#275 » by Fairview4Life » Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:07 pm

Brinbe wrote:
Read on Twitter


sad, scottie's mid-range game was solid last year and its regressed.


What's crazy is we are this far into the season and only KD has really taken a lot of mid range shots. Like Scottie is averaging 1.2 per game or something. Suggs' % is amazing! and he's only taken 31 of them. The Moreyization of basketball is complete.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#276 » by ATLTimekeeper » Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:03 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
Brinbe wrote:
Read on Twitter


sad, scottie's mid-range game was solid last year and its regressed.


What's crazy is we are this far into the season and only KD has really taken a lot of mid range shots. Like Scottie is averaging 1.2 per game or something. Suggs' % is amazing! and he's only taken 31 of them. The Moreyization of basketball is complete.


That's just a weird list based on % for no apparent cut off reason other than to maybe draw a direct Suggs/Barnes comparison. DeMar has taken 497 midrange shots, Embiid has taken 243 right in front of Morey's face.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#277 » by JShuttlesworth » Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:13 pm

blastttOFF wrote:As a roll man Scottie is very good, 88th percentile with an insane eFG of 74.4% generating at an absurd 1.39 points per possession.

the frustrating piece is that the raptors only use him in 0.8 possessions as a roll man. As a reference: guys like sengun has (3.4 possessions) with (1.14 PPP & 49th percentile) and mobley (3.4 possessions) with (1.16 PPP & 51st percentile) get theirs.

In nurse's offense, they like to have him sit in spread offense at the corner as a C&S three pointer. Talk about misuse.


It's the worst way to use him
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#278 » by ATLTimekeeper » Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:19 pm

JShuttlesworth wrote:
blastttOFF wrote:As a roll man Scottie is very good, 88th percentile with an insane eFG of 74.4% generating at an absurd 1.39 points per possession.

the frustrating piece is that the raptors only use him in 0.8 possessions as a roll man. As a reference: guys like sengun has (3.4 possessions) with (1.14 PPP & 49th percentile) and mobley (3.4 possessions) with (1.16 PPP & 51st percentile) get theirs.

In nurse's offense, they like to have him sit in spread offense at the corner as a C&S three pointer. Talk about misuse.


It's the worst way to use him


He's going to need to knock down those shots eventually for the team to be any good. I don't have a problem with it.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#279 » by JShuttlesworth » Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:21 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
JShuttlesworth wrote:
blastttOFF wrote:As a roll man Scottie is very good, 88th percentile with an insane eFG of 74.4% generating at an absurd 1.39 points per possession.

the frustrating piece is that the raptors only use him in 0.8 possessions as a roll man. As a reference: guys like sengun has (3.4 possessions) with (1.14 PPP & 49th percentile) and mobley (3.4 possessions) with (1.16 PPP & 51st percentile) get theirs.

In nurse's offense, they like to have him sit in spread offense at the corner as a C&S three pointer. Talk about misuse.


It's the worst way to use him


He's going to need to knock down those shots eventually for the team to be any good. I don't have a problem with it.


I'd rather see him playing to his strengths than playing to his weaknesses

Set your players up to be successful

That's just me though
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5 

Post#280 » by ATLTimekeeper » Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:25 pm

JShuttlesworth wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
JShuttlesworth wrote:
It's the worst way to use him


He's going to need to knock down those shots eventually for the team to be any good. I don't have a problem with it.


I'd rather see him playing to his strengths than playing to his weaknesses

Set your players up to be successful

That's just me though


I think he is successful. But the team won't get better in the long-term if he's more of a roller.

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