GT: Nets @ Knicks || Monday 2/13/23 || 7:30 PM

[NetsJets]

You guys should try Ben at the 5 surrounded by shooters.

And maybe try being a little nicer to him too.

Just a thought.

They have tried that. I actually want Vaughn to experiment going the other way for a few games. Force him into being the primary ball handler by having no ball dominant players out there with him. It could be a disaster or it could finally get him back into a rhythm. The dribble the ball up, hand it off to Dinwiddie or Cam then set some screens or stand in the corner thing is clearly not working. Put him out there with Claxton, Bridges, & 2 of DFS/Johnson/Harris to see if he can regain some confidence as a creator.

I think starting Ben for a couple of games might not be a bad idea. Remind him he should be playing like a big dog, fighting for baskets, and being aggressive. What do we have to lose if his value is already as low as it will ever be?

Maybe start

Ben / Cam T / Bridges / CJ / Claxton
*Defense, tempo, and 2-4 can all shoot.

with Spencer / Joe / Royce / Yuta / DFS off the bench
*Energy and scoring, small lineup but keep that pace going and let Dinwiddie cook other teams' 2nd units.

Find ways to get Sumner minutes too, I love his energy. If you took that level of confidence and energy and gave it to Ben... man.

Use Sharpe for when we need true big man minutes, and Patty when we have guards get into foul trouble. Maybe once Seth is healthy again too we get him some reserve minutes again too.

Last night was NOT IT. It was painful to watch as the 2 point lead turned to 10, which turned to 15, which turned to 20...

I miss KD and this season is now a rebuild and growing year.

That won’t change anything. He’s cooked. At this point we’re better off just sending him home for the season.

[CalamityX12]

Jeff Peterson will be taking over, Marks just wanted to make sure he left his mark, and he did, before being relieved of his duties or resigning. Vaughn will either get fired in the off season or be replaced in the 2024 Offseason. Tsai will be the last domino, who knows if he decides to sell or not, but this team needs a reset button from top to bottom. Sumner, Yuta and Clax should have extended minutes.

I really wish Tsai would sell the team to Steve Cohen.

Vaughn probably needs to go sooner than later if these two games are indicative of what's to come if he doesn't have KD to carry him anymore.

Agree. If I am the Nets, I would seriously consider Snyrder or dare I say it, even Udoka; the Udoka situation has simmered down a lot; maybe he will look to redeem his character.

one step closer to Snyder makes me very happy

[CalamityX12]

Yuta is solid but he wouldn’t have made that much of a difference. We simply don’t have enough firepower. We have a bunch of solid 3 and d role players and 3rd options (Dinwiddie) there will be nights like this. We will be competitive however we will win games just off defense and hustle and lose games like last night when the shots aren’t falling.

He needs his developing too... his energy, length and ability to be a 3pt shot alone is enough to play him.

We've always been a quicker, more demonstrative team with guys like him on the court playing.

[NetsJets]

Yuta is solid but he wouldn’t have made that much of a difference. We simply don’t have enough firepower. We have a bunch of solid 3 and d role players and 3rd options (Dinwiddie) there will be nights like this. We will be competitive however we will win games just off defense and hustle and lose games like last night when the shots aren’t falling.

He needs his developing too... his energy, length and ability to be a 3pt shot alone is enough to play him.

We've always been a quicker, more demonstrative team with guys like him on the court playing.

The problem is we can’t play everybody. I’d be okay with Yuta taking Simmons minutes though.

[Born_Ready]

Just bench Ben, place him on season ending IR or something > then trade his sorry a ss in the offseason.

[MrDollarBills]

Just bench Ben, place him on season ending IR or something > then trade his sorry a ss in the offseason.

It will cost multiple firsts to trade him.

not that you're wrong.

[ChuckS]

Yuta is solid but he wouldn’t have made that much of a difference. We simply don’t have enough firepower. We have a bunch of solid 3 and d role players and 3rd options (Dinwiddie) there will be nights like this. We will be competitive however we will win games just off defense and hustle and lose games like last night when the shots aren’t falling.

I apologize for being the board contrarian lately. We lost greatness, but not as much firepower as it appears right now with all the new guys shooting 39%.

We gave up 66.3 PPG and got back 57.9 PPG. Three of the four average between 46 and 47% and even DFS can shoot them so collectively they are slightly over 40% on threes. Another plus is that they are young and have potential.

So I see the organization trying to force feed an acclimation prior to the break. I think teammates know what they have and will not be harmed or disturbed by a temporary fluctuation in playing time and substitution patterns. In any event the recent coaching moves make sense to me.

I do not think you can lose a player like Durant totally pain free. But I think when averages get back to normal, our defense will make up for some loss of offense...as you stated.

And we will find closers, even if never another like KD.

[NetsWorld]

Just bench Ben, place him on season ending IR or something > then trade his sorry a ss in the offseason.

It will cost multiple firsts to trade him.

not that you're wrong.

The most difficult but probably only escape route is buying him out. Knowing Tsai, he might pull something like that off. You pay him x amount of dollars to get under the cap.

[Tha King]

You guys should try Ben at the 5 surrounded by shooters.

And maybe try being a little nicer to him too.

Just a thought.

They have tried that. I actually want Vaughn to experiment going the other way for a few games. Force him into being the primary ball handler by having no ball dominant players out there with him. It could be a disaster or it could finally get him back into a rhythm. The dribble the ball up, hand it off to Dinwiddie or Cam then set some screens or stand in the corner thing is clearly not working. Put him out there with Claxton, Bridges, & 2 of DFS/Johnson/Harris to see if he can regain some confidence as a creator.

I think starting Ben for a couple of games might not be a bad idea. Remind him he should be playing like a big dog, fighting for baskets, and being aggressive. What do we have to lose if his value is already as low as it will ever be?

Maybe start

Ben / Cam T / Bridges / CJ / Claxton
*Defense, tempo, and 2-4 can all shoot.

with Spencer / Joe / Royce / Yuta / DFS off the bench
*Energy and scoring, small lineup but keep that pace going and let Dinwiddie cook other teams' 2nd units.

Find ways to get Sumner minutes too, I love his energy. If you took that level of confidence and energy and gave it to Ben... man.

Use Sharpe for when we need true big man minutes, and Patty when we have guards get into foul trouble. Maybe once Seth is healthy again too we get him some reserve minutes again too.

Last night was NOT IT. It was painful to watch as the 2 point lead turned to 10, which turned to 15, which turned to 20...

I miss KD and this season is now a rebuild and growing year.

I would go with your starting five but if no Simmons because of spacing, what about Sumner? He's a much better defender than Dinwiddie and gives the lineup a player along with Cam that can create off the dribble.

Sumner
Cam
Bridges
CJ
Claxton

[Tha King]

What I don't understand is why JV is investing too much on a 29yo chucker, as opposed to a 21yo one?

Over the last 3 games, Cam's only averaging 23.6 mins (19 mins the last 2 games) on 12 FGA's, with shooting splits of 33.3/12.5 (8 attempts)/94.1 and averages 13.6/2.7/2.0

However, compare it to when he was getting his minutes. Wizards, Clippers & Suns' 3 game stretch. Cam is averaging 35.3 mins on 25 FGA's, with shooting splits of 56.0/56.0 (25 attempts)/90.0 and averages of 44.6/4.7/3.7

If you compare it to Spencer's first 3 games with the team, he is averaging 34.3 mins on 16 FGA's, with shooting splits of 37.5/23.8 (21 attempts) /87.5 and averages of 20.6/4.7/5.3

Looking at the efficiency, there's no doubt that Cam is better if given equal minutes and attempts.

I have nothing against Spence, but I don't think.he should be the focal point of offense for this team. Since this season is over, with no championship chances, I think it would be wiser to hand over the keys to Cam. At worse, if the FO doesn't trust him enough, it will increase his trade value come off season.

The game vs the Knicks pisses me off not just because we lost, but with the way the shots were distributed.

Spence led the team in FGA's with freakin' 21! The next closest is CJ with 10, followed by the trio of Mikal, Clax & Cam with 8. This is such a red flag. With Bridges as the centerpiece of the KD trade, you would expect at least 12-15 attempts at minimum. What are we trying to achieve here? It's not that Spencer will be part of the team's future plans?

I'm confused tbh...

I'm in general agreement with your premise that Cam might help solve a team scoring problem. His shooting has been efficient in his forty games this year, and three straight forty point games speak loudly. But even Luka is only averaging 33, so who knows where CT will land when he gets more minutes. Think of Yuta's early three point shooting before he leveled off. But he got those minutes by being awesome. I'm convinced that JV determines playing time by what he sees happening in the present. I suspect Cam will get more minutes as he earns them.

On the other hand I thought it was somewhat disingenuous to compare those spectacular three games with Spencer's first three here. Would you believe that none of the four newcomers have averaged over 39% since they arrived and they are all within a percentage point? I, personally, believe all are better than Cam, and their averages will soon normalize. Once again, Dinwiddie averaged 45.5/40.5% and 17.7 points in the 53 games before his arrival.

There seems to be the implication that our poor shooting since the trade is Dinwiddie's fault. In any motion offense relatively few points are the result of assists by the point guard, and he is averaging the same 5.3 as Irving and Durant, and only nominally less than Ben's 6.1. It's only my opinion, but I think he is hardly a black hole or iso freak. He is averaging 16 attempts per game, which will probably go down after we collectively start shooting better, because he averaged 13.1 before the trade. Kyrie and Kevin averaged 39.3 so the shots are there. As an aside, I suspect some of our shooting problem, since we traded our shooters, has been compounded by the absence of Curry, and Nic seems different since he was out briefly.

I think how Dinwiddie is playing is absolutely limiting the offense. He's got a TS% of 53% the first three games on 28% usage which is comparable to KD's career. Not only is that type of basketball limiting the offense it does nothing for the development Claxton, Bridges, etc.

[Keith Van Horn]

I get it here, we're overreacting a lot. And it's justifiable. We showed up against a scrappy Bulls team after the Kyrie trade and won (they had previously broken that big win streak). We went toe-to-toe with the Sixers at full strength and almost won. Optimism is high... And then get shellacked by the Knicks in the 2nd half of an away game.

It's.... going to take some time. Growing pains. Learning experiences. Seeing Bridges get put into a lead role when before he was 3rd/4th fiddle on an elite team. All these other guys learning the plays and growing into their roles. The whole "where do we go from here now that we botched the KD thing." Ugh.

I expect a lot of games like this rest of season. But I hope we make the playoffs. I hope Ben gets healthy and finds his mojo. I hope there is better days ahead, bc man, it's going to be rough.

[MrDollarBills]

Just bench Ben, place him on season ending IR or something > then trade his sorry a ss in the offseason.

It will cost multiple firsts to trade him.

not that you're wrong.

The most difficult but probably only escape route is buying him out. Knowing Tsai, he might pull something like that off. You pay him x amount of dollars to get under the cap.

a buy out and stretch might have future cap implications. there is no pain free way out of this.

[MrDollarBills]

What I don't understand is why JV is investing too much on a 29yo chucker, as opposed to a 21yo one?

Over the last 3 games, Cam's only averaging 23.6 mins (19 mins the last 2 games) on 12 FGA's, with shooting splits of 33.3/12.5 (8 attempts)/94.1 and averages 13.6/2.7/2.0

However, compare it to when he was getting his minutes. Wizards, Clippers & Suns' 3 game stretch. Cam is averaging 35.3 mins on 25 FGA's, with shooting splits of 56.0/56.0 (25 attempts)/90.0 and averages of 44.6/4.7/3.7

If you compare it to Spencer's first 3 games with the team, he is averaging 34.3 mins on 16 FGA's, with shooting splits of 37.5/23.8 (21 attempts) /87.5 and averages of 20.6/4.7/5.3

Looking at the efficiency, there's no doubt that Cam is better if given equal minutes and attempts.

I have nothing against Spence, but I don't think.he should be the focal point of offense for this team. Since this season is over, with no championship chances, I think it would be wiser to hand over the keys to Cam. At worse, if the FO doesn't trust him enough, it will increase his trade value come off season.

The game vs the Knicks pisses me off not just because we lost, but with the way the shots were distributed.

Spence led the team in FGA's with freakin' 21! The next closest is CJ with 10, followed by the trio of Mikal, Clax & Cam with 8. This is such a red flag. With Bridges as the centerpiece of the KD trade, you would expect at least 12-15 attempts at minimum. What are we trying to achieve here? It's not that Spencer will be part of the team's future plans?

I'm confused tbh...

I'm in general agreement with your premise that Cam might help solve a team scoring problem. His shooting has been efficient in his forty games this year, and three straight forty point games speak loudly. But even Luka is only averaging 33, so who knows where CT will land when he gets more minutes. Think of Yuta's early three point shooting before he leveled off. But he got those minutes by being awesome. I'm convinced that JV determines playing time by what he sees happening in the present. I suspect Cam will get more minutes as he earns them.

On the other hand I thought it was somewhat disingenuous to compare those spectacular three games with Spencer's first three here. Would you believe that none of the four newcomers have averaged over 39% since they arrived and they are all within a percentage point? I, personally, believe all are better than Cam, and their averages will soon normalize. Once again, Dinwiddie averaged 45.5/40.5% and 17.7 points in the 53 games before his arrival.

There seems to be the implication that our poor shooting since the trade is Dinwiddie's fault. In any motion offense relatively few points are the result of assists by the point guard, and he is averaging the same 5.3 as Irving and Durant, and only nominally less than Ben's 6.1. It's only my opinion, but I think he is hardly a black hole or iso freak. He is averaging 16 attempts per game, which will probably go down after we collectively start shooting better, because he averaged 13.1 before the trade. Kyrie and Kevin averaged 39.3 so the shots are there. As an aside, I suspect some of our shooting problem, since we traded our shooters, has been compounded by the absence of Curry, and Nic seems different since he was out briefly.

I think how Dinwiddie is playing is absolutely limiting the offense. He's got a TS% of 53% the first three games on 28% usage which is comparable to KD's career. Not only is that type of basketball limiting the offense it does nothing for the development Claxton, Bridges, etc.

Spencer is playing the kind of basketball that would have gotten him benched under Kenny Atkinson. He needs to move the ball.

[gigantes]

I apologize for being the board contrarian lately. We lost greatness, but not as much firepower as it appears right now with all the new guys shooting 39%.

We gave up 66.3 PPG and got back 57.9 PPG. Three of the four average between 46 and 47% and even DFS can shoot them so collectively they are slightly over 40% on threes. Another plus is that they are young and have potential...

I get it here, we're overreacting a lot. And it's justifiable. We showed up against a scrappy Bulls team after the Kyrie trade and won (they had previously broken that big win streak). We went toe-to-toe with the Sixers at full strength and almost won. Optimism is high... And then get shellacked by the Knicks in the 2nd half of an away game...

I keep coming back to the fact that the team competed surprisingly well with Durant out and Kyrie stinking up the joint, not so long ago.

Now take that situation, add a bunch of 3&D length and depth, and how could the team possibly be worse, once the dust has settled?

Even without stars, I feel like these Nets have the potential to throttle other teams once they're familiar-enough with each other and on the same page. Not just that, but to wear down other teams by the 4th quarter with all our depth. To me that's exciting, and I likely just a matter of time.

[gigantes]

It will cost multiple firsts to trade him.

not that you're wrong.

The most difficult but probably only escape route is buying him out. Knowing Tsai, he might pull something like that off. You pay him x amount of dollars to get under the cap.

a buy out and stretch might have future cap implications. there is no pain free way out of this.

Fans who keep impatiently calling for Simmons to be moved need to have their heads examined IMO.

Dude's still got three months to go before he's roughly finished the standard recovery period for his surgery, bringing him in to the offseason. From there, I don't see any reason not to let him play in to early '23-24 and see how close he is to full strength. Making a decision on him at that point means you have all the cards on the table, enabling the Nets to make the smartest possible decision and not just make a move our of frustration & impatience.

Seriously-- how STOOPID would it be to lose picks or tie up cap room just to get rid of someone, only for the very next team to reap all the benefits of a fully healthy star?

Another way of looking at it-- if the guy can barely jump these days, and it's clearly affecting his performance and mindset, then maybe just maybe it would be worth letting him fully recover and see how he plays then? Because I suspect that if he *does* fully recover (knock on wood), then 90%+ of his 'mental issues' tend to quickly disappear.

[ArksNetsSince99]

Just bench Ben, place him on season ending IR or something > then trade his sorry a ss in the offseason.

It will cost multiple firsts to trade him.

not that you're wrong.

Anyways anyhow it’s gonna cost us multiple first to get rid of him , i can understand that he is limited on offense, that his shooting sucks , but when he just standing and watching on defense that’s a bit to much

I was patient with Ben , more patient than most of Nets fans , but last night he had at least 3-4 possessions that he didn’t even tried to hustle on defense

[ChuckS]

I think how Dinwiddie is playing is absolutely limiting the offense. He's got a TS% of 53% the first three games on 28% usage which is comparable to KD's career. Not only is that type of basketball limiting the offense it does nothing for the development Claxton, Bridges, etc.

Sorry for being so late getting back to you. I felt your deep concern but knew I could only make it worse. And I know mine is a lonely opinion and will make no difference. But it is an opinion board, so here it is. I think most of the arguments against Dinwiddie have been specious. And I think there has been too much panic based on three games for a point guard thrown immediately into the fray with no experience with a new (for him) offense, and all (but one) new teammates. I should admit upfront that Dinwiddie was one of the players I hoped for in a trade for Kyrie. The other was Christian Wood who I thought would perfectly solve a dire team need. But I believe that DFS was a great alternative.

I just wanted to say that I think it fairer in our judgements to remember that Spencer's TS% for the year is 59.9% and his useage rate is 22.3 (104th in the league -- KD 31.1). It could be argued that the latter is low because he played with Doncic, but Kyrie played with KD and had a 29.2. I'll admit that KAI is the superior offensive player, but Dinwiddie is not too bad if he averaged 17.7 with Luca. In other words, his numbers do not concern me, nor do I think they can "limit the team".

As for Bridges, keep in mind that he was high scorer in the Philly game. I do not see how it is Spencer's fault he went 2 for 8 against the Knicks. I suspect, as a thinking professional, he felt he didn't have it that night and just shot less. And quite frankly he had his hands overfull on defense. I cannot imagine Dinwiddie slowing such a talent.

Claxton is another matter. As a limited offensive player, or center in general, he could be affected by a point guard in getting touches. Spencer however has not shown hesitance in feeding a fellow teammate or he wouldn't have survived in Dallas. In any event, his assist rate is the same as Kyrie's so I don't think we lost much. Some players might actually have gained, because Spencer takes fewer shots. He only took ten in the 76ers game when Bridges and Harris gave us some offense. He took more than his 13 per game average against the Knicks because he was all we had offensively. But regarding Nic, I cannot remember why he missed a game recently, but he hasn't looked right to me since then. It might be a minutes limitation or related problem. In my opinion it's definitely not Dinwiddie...but could be an adjustment to all four new starters.

[njnets62892]

The most difficult but probably only escape route is buying him out. Knowing Tsai, he might pull something like that off. You pay him x amount of dollars to get under the cap.

a buy out and stretch might have future cap implications. there is no pain free way out of this.

Fans who keep impatiently calling for Simmons to be moved need to have their heads examined IMO.

Dude's still got three months to go before he's roughly finished the standard recovery period for his surgery, bringing him in to the offseason. From there, I don't see any reason not to let him play in to early '23-24 and see how close he is to full strength. Making a decision on him at that point means you have all the cards on the table, enabling the Nets to make the smartest possible decision and not just make a move our of frustration & impatience.

Seriously-- how STOOPID would it be to lose picks or tie up cap room just to get rid of someone, only for the very next team to reap all the benefits of a fully healthy star?

Another way of looking at it-- if the guy can barely jump these days, and it's clearly affecting his performance and mindset, then maybe just maybe it would be worth letting him fully recover and see how he plays then? Because I suspect that if he *does* fully recover (knock on wood), then 90%+ of his 'mental issues' tend to quickly disappear.

I agree that it would be dumb to give up assets to move him right now, which you would have to. HOWEVER, I think any hopes that he can return somewhere close to what he used to be is wishful thinking. The "mental issues" were there before the back issues. I think the best you can expect at this point is that he proves to be a decent role player rather than a complete black hole. That won't be enough to move him next year but at least the year after he becomes a large expiring contract which is valuable.

[gigantes]

a buy out and stretch might have future cap implications. there is no pain free way out of this.

Fans who keep impatiently calling for Simmons to be moved need to have their heads examined IMO.

Dude's still got three months to go before he's roughly finished the standard recovery period for his surgery, bringing him in to the offseason. From there, I don't see any reason not to let him play in to early '23-24 and see how close he is to full strength. Making a decision on him at that point means you have all the cards on the table, enabling the Nets to make the smartest possible decision and not just make a move our of frustration & impatience.

Seriously-- how STOOPID would it be to lose picks or tie up cap room just to get rid of someone, only for the very next team to reap all the benefits of a fully healthy star?

Another way of looking at it-- if the guy can barely jump these days, and it's clearly affecting his performance and mindset, then maybe just maybe it would be worth letting him fully recover and see how he plays then? Because I suspect that if he *does* fully recover (knock on wood), then 90%+ of his 'mental issues' tend to quickly disappear.

I agree that it would be dumb to give up assets to move him right now, which you would have to. HOWEVER, I think any hopes that he can return somewhere close to what he used to be is wishful thinking. The "mental issues" were there before the back issues. I think the best you can expect at this point is that he proves to be a decent role player rather than a complete black hole. That won't be enough to move him next year but at least the year after he becomes a large expiring contract which is valuable.

Hey matey,
this isn't personal in any way, but is moreso based on my frustration with NBA fans fed up with Simmons' slow recovery:

1) How could you all POSSIBLY say with any certainty that the 'mental issues' were there before the back issues if you weren't part of his inner circle or the medical staff treating him...?

2) Do you honestly think that the dude went from playing a high-flying, aggressive game to just sort of 'mentally collapsing' for no particular reason? To the point where he's almost afraid to approach the rim, and can barely manage to jump high enough at 6'10" to dunk the ball these days?

3) Have you had a case of LDH yourself, or any particular health situation which entailed a long recovery period, up to a year or longer?

4) Are you familiar with the many, many stories & anecdotes athletes tell about how it frequently takes a surprisingly long time for them not just to fully heal, but to have full confidence that they're not going to accidentally reinjure themselves by going too hard?

5) Or the reverse-- how sometimes (moreso in the past than in modern times) they'll try to push too hard through an injury, only to worsen or reaggravate the situation, and sometimes even to permanently worsen their athleticism, as with Grant Hill.