Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

[HMFFL]

This shouldn't surprise anyone; LeBron came closer than anyone else to dethroning the GOAT, but even sustained marketing and press onslaughts weren't enough to sway public opinion at-large. He'll have to settle for top-three status alongside Kareem, which is incredible and amazing. Imagine being at-worst the third-best person to ever do something.

He won't keep his top 3. Lebron is currently enjoying recency bias. He will drop further down after retirement, like what happened to Kobe.

I disagree; we'll see.

That's possible but I have my doubts.
I suggest some people compare the 13 seasons Magic Johnson played to the first 13 Lebron played. Jordan to me isn't a comparable comparison for Lebron because most things favor Jordan.

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[letskissbro]

MJ has the conservative/boomer white male demographic on lock for sure

[MavsDirk41]

Preach. That was a seriously long worded way to say Jordan couldn't get it done without Pippen.

Well James couldnt get it done without Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis. Nobody wins a championship by themself right? I like how James fans say Jordan couldnt get it done without Pippen like lebron james won a championship without another all star lol

I can't speak for others - but what you're saying is exactly what I'm saying.

Championships are team accomplishments.

Virtually every championship won was won with multiple all-time greats on the roster. The myth that Jordan was always able to lift his teammates to Olympus and didn't need help, is just that, a myth.

LeBron needed help too - that's why he had to leave Cleveland. Nothing wrong in admitting that, but for whatever reason Jordan Jockers don't want to...

Dirk won a championship without another all star but he had some solid vets on the team with him. I think most people view Jordan as the goat but there will never be a consensus and everybody has a right to their opinion.

[JN61]

It's laughable to think someone would perk LeBron as the best player ever lived just because he scored few more points than a season ago.
About to be another playoffs missed and 3 seasons in row missed playoffs or first round exit. Rough!

[OdomFan]

I'm perfectly fine with some picking MJ as the GOAT. I do groan however when people pretend it's not close and / or can't acknowledge any of MJ's deficiencies...

yeah well I "groan" when people pretend like there aren't other players that have an argument over Lebron. Heck the very guy who Lebron just surpassed in most points in nba history, Kareem still has a better resume than Lebron James. How is Lebron better again?

Tim Duncan led his team to more championships without having to jump from team to team to join up with this or that person to make it happen. Lebron is better how?

How is he better than Shaq?

LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, MJ.

Those are my 4.

Duncan, Shaq and Russell I have in the next tier.

yea...that's a nice favorite of all time list you got there, but reality is a Duncan led teams accomplished more than Wilt as well. Wilt Chamberlain has all these amazing stats including 100 points in a single game, yet despite all that dominance with his skillset. He only has 2 championship wins on his resume. Duncan has 5.

You can talk about Shaq jumping from team to team later in his career, but that doesn't over shadow the fact that the Shaq led team has something that neither Lebron or WIlt has also. A 3peat.

So how does that put any of them in a tier above Duncan or Shaq again? it doesn't. Thanks for sharing your favorite of all time list though.

[MavsDirk41]

MJ has the conservative/boomer white male demographic on lock for sure

What are you talking about?

[Karate Diop]

Well James couldnt get it done without Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis. Nobody wins a championship by themself right? I like how James fans say Jordan couldnt get it done without Pippen like lebron james won a championship without another all star lol

I can't speak for others - but what you're saying is exactly what I'm saying.

Championships are team accomplishments.

Virtually every championship won was won with multiple all-time greats on the roster. The myth that Jordan was always able to lift his teammates to Olympus and didn't need help, is just that, a myth.

LeBron needed help too - that's why he had to leave Cleveland. Nothing wrong in admitting that, but for whatever reason Jordan Jockers don't want to...

Dirk won a championship without another all star but he had some solid vets on the team with him. I think most people view Jordan as the goat but there will never be a consensus and everybody has a right to their opinion.

Yep, and that's really the one I can think of where that was the case (which is why I'm a big Dirk defender in all-time rankings).

[JN61]

yeah well I "groan" when people pretend like there aren't other players that have an argument over Lebron. Heck the very guy who Lebron just surpassed in most points in nba history, Kareem still has a better resume than Lebron James. How is Lebron better again?

Tim Duncan led his team to more championships without having to jump from team to team to join up with this or that person to make it happen. Lebron is better how?

How is he better than Shaq?

LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, MJ.

Those are my 4.

Duncan, Shaq and Russell I have in the next tier.

yea...that's a nice favorite of all time list you got there, but reality is a Duncan led teams accomplished more than Wilt as well. Wilt Chamberlain has all these amazing stats including 100 points in a single game, yet despite all that dominance with his skillset. He only has 2 championship wins on his resume. Duncan has 5.

You can talk about Shaq jumping from team to team later in his career, but that doesn't over shadow the fact that the Shaq led team has something that neither Lebron or WIlt has also. A 3peat.

So how does that put any of them in a tier above Duncan or Shaq again? it doesn't. Thanks for sharing your favorite of all time list though.

Thing is over half of his career wilt went against the only professionally ran organization so one can't kill him for such large disparity on team differences.

[MavsDirk41]

I can't speak for others - but what you're saying is exactly what I'm saying.

Championships are team accomplishments.

Virtually every championship won was won with multiple all-time greats on the roster. The myth that Jordan was always able to lift his teammates to Olympus and didn't need help, is just that, a myth.

LeBron needed help too - that's why he had to leave Cleveland. Nothing wrong in admitting that, but for whatever reason Jordan Jockers don't want to...

Dirk won a championship without another all star but he had some solid vets on the team with him. I think most people view Jordan as the goat but there will never be a consensus and everybody has a right to their opinion.

Yep, and that's really the one I can think of where that was the case (which is why I'm a big Dirk defender in all-time rankings).

Dirk won against a team with James, Bosh, and Wade so yea that really cemented his legacy as an alltime great. Dirk for me is late teens early 20s alltime ranking.

[HEKTOR]

MJ has the conservative/boomer white male demographic on lock for sure

What are you talking about?

This should be good...

[bradybunch]

Water is wet.

Anyone with an IQ above 80 knows MJ is the GOAT.

It's actually disgusting to see LeBron even mentioned in the same breath.

LeBron is not even top 5.

[Freighttrain]

Not really. The Last Dance was a documentary about the greatest player in league history winning his 6th NBA Championship with the team that drafted him.

The Decision was a cringey self-promoting infomercial about a player who couldn't win a championship for the team who drafted him, so he packed his bags to form a super team with two other all stars in a desperate bid to win his 1st NBA championship.

Kareem only has one title for the team that drafted him, so why was he considered the greatest / 2nd greatest ever to play?

Nobody is changing anybodys mind on who they think the goat is on this board. That i can be pretty confident in saying.

I think if LeBron would win one more it would probably switch over another 5-10%, but nothing drastic. I feel like most MJ fans made up their mind once he retired, no matter the next players to come.

[OdomFan]

LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, MJ.

Those are my 4.

Duncan, Shaq and Russell I have in the next tier.

yea...that's a nice favorite of all time list you got there, but reality is a Duncan led teams accomplished more than Wilt as well. Wilt Chamberlain has all these amazing stats including 100 points in a single game, yet despite all that dominance with his skillset. He only has 2 championship wins on his resume. Duncan has 5.

You can talk about Shaq jumping from team to team later in his career, but that doesn't over shadow the fact that the Shaq led team has something that neither Lebron or WIlt has also. A 3peat.

So how does that put any of them in a tier above Duncan or Shaq again? it doesn't. Thanks for sharing your favorite of all time list though.

Thing is over half of his career wilt went against the only professionally ran organization so one can't kill him for such large disparity on team differences.

I'm still taking Duncan over him.

[Da Doctor]

Casuals shouldn’t be allowed to vote. Nor should they be allowed to buy tickets near the floor. Both of these should be reserved for us (most of us anyhow).

And who determines who is a "casual"?

Let me guess... you?

Watch on YouTube

[ropjhk]

Unless Lebron wins more championships he's not going to dethrone Jordan. Adding more to the longevity category has diminishing returns.

.... unless of course he's still playing at a top 5 level into his mid 40's. Then I think his longevity will take on new meaning beyond basketball and into general athletics and human genetics.

If it's based on rings, then Russell, who has almost double the amount of Jordan, should be the GOAT, no?

Sure if that was the case but it's not just based on rings.

[Goomba3666]

Yeah. Despite the amount of running around Lebron has done, he hasn't completed a three peat and never will.

I remember the discussion years ago about the significance of averaging a Triple Double. Then Russ did it on far crappier teams for consecutive seasons. Lol. That was supposed to be the ULTIMATE accomplishment that they only projected Lebron to achieve and a 6'3 version of him completed it.

No averaging a triple double
No threepeat
No real success in a competitive conference.
4 rings.

This is why everything is about numbers with Lebron. Pretty much this generation's Wilt and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Salieri]

Water is wet.

Anyone with an IQ above 80 knows MJ is the GOAT.

It's actually disgusting to see LeBron even mentioned in the same breath.

LeBron is not even top 5.

This is funny, because in the PC board there are a bunch of posters who have LeBron higher than MJ in their GOAT lists, and from their arguments you can see their IQ is above 80. In fact, their arguments are galaxies better than the ones wielded here, such as rings and threepeats (team accomplishments, not dependant on the player), or amount of shoes sold (LOL).

I have no dog in this fight because Kareem is my GOAT, but as I said, it's just funny to see the points made by both sides and figure out whose arguments make more sense for someone with high or low IQ.

[Gusto1903]

Water is wet.

Anyone with an IQ above 80 knows MJ is the GOAT.

It's actually disgusting to see LeBron even mentioned in the same breath.

LeBron is not even top 5.

This is funny, because in the PC board there are a bunch of posters who have LeBron higher than MJ in their GOAT lists, and from their arguments you can see their IQ is above 80. In fact, their arguments are galaxies better than the ones wielded here, such as rings and threepeats (team accomplishments, not dependant on the player), or amount of shoes sold (LOL).

I have no dog in this fight because Kareem is my GOAT, but as I said, it's just funny to see the points made by both sides and figure out whose arguments make more sense for someone with high or low IQ.

Theres not a single argument, other than longevity and versatility. And those dont even equal "better". Now his Point Total has come up, but that only underlines the longevity argument.

[ropjhk]

This debate is always approached the wrong way. Instead of both sides just listing off the reasons why they think one player is greater than another, or even worse both sides just trashing the other, the debate should instead focus on the criteria for greatness.

What emphasis should we put on stats? Career accomplishments? What's the evaluation of the on court skills? What's the value of memorable moments? Cultural impact? Impact on the game? Dominance over the competition? The strength of the competition?

There are more things to consider than what I just wrote. Whenever these threads come up posters will usually focus on just a subset of these categories and ignore the rest. That's not really useful IMO.

Rather than answering the question of who's the greatest NBA player fans should answer the question of what makes a NBA player great.

[TGW]

I think MJ is the goat...but really it doesn’t matter at this point....the nba and Nike crowded MJ the goat...forever...

and Lebron not overcoming that marketing.

And the public has spoken...people that never saw MJ play think he is better than Lebron just because

It’s engrained like Lincoln or Washington the greatest President- no one else need to apply

Example of how big MJ is....MJ and Nike still selling his retro sneakers at raffles online and lebrons sitting on shelves at footlocker...

That’s a new generation of MJ loyalist that vote MJ regardless of facts...when we kinda all know Wilt the goat lol

i mean, Jordan sneakers just look better, than any of the countless Lebrons.

The “panda 1s” dropping at 10 am tomorrow on snkrs- playoff 13s dropped too...but man that’s a lot of selling to people born after his last shot with even the wizards.

MJ is a degenerate gambling, smoking, team mate punching @-hole with narcissist tendencies...that no one would really consider a friend BUT he has the best marketing on earth...I mean in the solar system...can’t knock the hustle -

Lebrons marketing is great...MJs MARKETING is the GOAT for sure

Lebron will never be the GOAT in my eyes because he had to run to Miami to get his rings. MJ didn't have to leave his team to do it. Optically it looks better to the casual fan.