Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

[MavsDirk41]

Isn't your whole thing that you watched them with your own eyes and vividly remember things well enough to rank them? You can't even get the players on the team right

You say they weren't stacked. The last championship of the 1st 3-peat, they won 57 games. The next season without Jordan they won 55 games. That's not a great supporting cast?

Did those players i mentioned not play for the Bulls? Prove to me they never played for the Bulls. I got the years wrong. Lol lol lol

They had 2 allstars in Jordan and Pippen. They had the same coaching staff all those years and had grown accustomed to playing together for several years. Plus they ran the triangle offense so everbody touched the ball. They didnt have a ball dominate player who had to control the ball. What else do you have?

You say the supporting cast wasn't good, but they won literally 2 fewer games without Jordan the next season. That supporting cast lost a GOAT player and still won 55 games. How is that not a stacked supporting cast?

Remember when LeBron's Cavs went 61-21, then he left the team and they went 19-63 the next season? I do.

They had played together for multiple seasons and won 3 championships together. They ran the triangle offense. Same coaching staff. Its called consistency. They were a well oiled machine. Besides, what was their record when Jordan came back in 95 to play the last 16 games of the season. Off the top of my head they were around .500.

James dominates the ball like Harden, Westbrook, and Luka. Everybody else stands around and watches what they do. The triangle offense involves everybody. Not just one guy pounding the ball for 20 seconds.

How about this. Miami lost the finals in 2011 cause James was mediocre. Wade outplayed him. Even when losing to Birds Celtics and The Pistons Jordan still played well. Name a time when Jordan no showed in a playoff series. Name a series when he was outplayed by another player on his team.

[Taj FTW]

Did those players i mentioned not play for the Bulls? Prove to me they never played for the Bulls. I got the years wrong. Lol lol lol

They had 2 allstars in Jordan and Pippen. They had the same coaching staff all those years and had grown accustomed to playing together for several years. Plus they ran the triangle offense so everbody touched the ball. They didnt have a ball dominate player who had to control the ball. What else do you have?

You say the supporting cast wasn't good, but they won literally 2 fewer games without Jordan the next season. That supporting cast lost a GOAT player and still won 55 games. How is that not a stacked supporting cast?

Remember when LeBron's Cavs went 61-21, then he left the team and they went 19-63 the next season? I do.

They had played together for multiple seasons and won 3 championships together. They ran the triangle offense. Same coaching staff. Its called consistency. They were a well oiled machine. Besides, what was their record when Jordan came back in 95 to play the last 16 games of the season. Off the top of my head they were around .500.

James dominates the ball like Harden, Westbrook, and Luka. Everybody else stands around and watches what they do. The triangle offense involves everybody. Not just one guy pounding the ball for 20 seconds.

How about this. Miami lost the finals in 2011 cause James was mediocre. Wade outplayed him. Even when losing to Birds Celtics and The Pistons Jordan still played well. Name a time when Jordan no showed in a playoff series. Name a series when he was outplayed by another player on his team.

The supporting staff wasn't good, but they had a great record and almost won as many games without Jordan because the triangle and consistency? LOL! Teams don't just win 55 games out of nowhere. It's the NBA - you don't luck into good records. That obviously shows that the team was talented. That supporting cast was obviously great. They are what their record showed. It's OK to admit it.

Using a single series to make your point isn't very convincing. It's such a small sample size. When you make the playoffs as often as LeBron, you're bound to have a bad series sometime. I haven't looked it up, but I'd imagine LeBron has played around 3x as many playoff series as MJ. We're going to act like he can't have one bad series when's he's played in that many? LOL

[Cavsfansince84]

They had played together for multiple seasons and won 3 championships together. They ran the triangle offense. Same coaching staff. Its called consistency. They were a well oiled machine. Besides, what was their record when Jordan came back in 95 to play the last 16 games of the season. Off the top of my head they were around .500.

James dominates the ball like Harden, Westbrook, and Luka. Everybody else stands around and watches what they do. The triangle offense involves everybody. Not just one guy pounding the ball for 20 seconds.

How about this. Miami lost the finals in 2011 cause James was mediocre. Wade outplayed him. Even when losing to Birds Celtics and The Pistons Jordan still played well. Name a time when Jordan no showed in a playoff series. Name a series when he was outplayed by another player on his team.

The part about pounding the ball for 20 sec is pure hyperbole when we have stats that track this and LeBron yearly ranks behind those guys in terms of time per possession. MJ didn't want to even use the triangle to begin with either. He's incredibly lucky that he got to play under Phil, Tex and Johnny Bach. It's also very subjective to say he played well against the Pistons. He wasn't close to what he was against most other teams of that era. He'd have 1-2 big games per series and 1-2 bad ones then look good but still mortal in the others. Better than LeBron in 2011? ya I'd agree but I don't think one series defines a player's legacy even for goat level players. MJ also looked sort of bad against the Knicks as well at times.

[Dick Tate]

I would like to see a thread where MJ memes are put up against LeBron memes. I would expect MJ to be the clear GOAT.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Isn't your whole thing that you watched them with your own eyes and vividly remember things well enough to rank them? You can't even get the players on the team right

You say they weren't stacked. The last championship of the 1st 3-peat, they won 57 games. The next season without Jordan they won 55 games. That's not a great supporting cast?

Did those players i mentioned not play for the Bulls? Prove to me they never played for the Bulls. I got the years wrong. Lol lol lol

They had 2 allstars in Jordan and Pippen. They had the same coaching staff all those years and had grown accustomed to playing together for several years. Plus they ran the triangle offense so everbody touched the ball. They didnt have a ball dominate player who had to control the ball. What else do you have?

You say the supporting cast wasn't good, but they won literally 2 fewer games without Jordan the next season. That supporting cast lost a GOAT player and still won 55 games. How is that not a stacked supporting cast?

Remember when LeBron's Cavs went 61-21, then he left the team and they went 19-63 the next season? I do.

I know you guys love to bring up the 94 Bulls and the fact that they only dropped two games from the 93 Bulls.

But the SRS dropped from 6.19(4th in the league) in 1993 to 2.87(11th in the league) in 1994. So the 94 team had an SRS nearly 3.3 points lower than the lowest SRS of any of the championship teams.

The team's Net Rtg dropped from +6.8(2nd in the league) in 1993 to +3.3(11th in the league), the drop occurring mostly on the offensive side of the ball. So, the 94 team had a Net Rtg 3.5 points lower than the lowest Net Rtg of any of the championship teams.

I love Pippen and Grant and Kukoc and Armstrong and the rest, but I remember that team and I believe the 55 wins overstates how good that team was. They were playing over their heads and they won a bunch of closes games they easily could have lost(I counted 9 wins by 2 points or less in 94(and a few more by 3 points) and 4 wins by 2 points or less in 93).

[70sFan]

Being nice can work for certain leadership styles in certain situations. Other times you have to be a bit cruel. MJ was hard on his teammates but you can't deny that he generally got the most out of them. Leadership is another category for greatness and it's something that personal stats won't reveal.

I get that sometimes a leader can't be "nice", but it doesn't mean it's acceptable to punch his teammate in scrimmage...

its never acceptable to punch ppl.... but in the heat of the moment in competition, it happens.... just look at this offseason and the GSW situation with dray/poole.... egos collide and **** happens. People are always nitpicking reasons to hate jordan and make him look like the bad guy.... lebron is the favored "persona" these days.. hes more outspoken, fits the woke narrative.... while jordan generally stays quiet behind the scenes and just donates money to charitys.

I am not a LeBron fan, I just want to be objective. As you said, punching your teammate is bad, especially for such a minor reason.

I don't like LeBron the "persona" either by the way.

[michaelm]

AD joining LeBron at the Lakers was malodorous imo, given he forced his way out of an existing contract with multiple years remaining when he was a client of LeBron’s player agency.

Otherwise LeBron can do whatever he likes when he is a Free Agent, but so can Durant, and LeBron fans in particular trying to argue that what the 2 players did was substantively different is what I personally dispute. Sure GSW were a better TEAM with a roster with better fit who played an ensemble game which is imo superior to the heliocentric game most of LeBron’s teams have played, although he and a healthy AD playing together was a thing of beauty which duly resulted in the 2020 title. It isn’t unfair or against the rules of the NBA to beat a LeBron team with team play as far as I am aware however, something the San Antonio Spurs did as well.

I do think KD joining a 73 team where he isn't even the center piece of it is different than forming basically a whole new team where things like chemistry and lack of depth are major things to be done which is what LeBron had to do each time he moved. I am not seeing the relevance of the bolded part to anything I said either. It just seems weirdly out of place to me.

KD joined another top 5 player on a well constructed team who played a team game. If they had won the title the 73 wins would be more relevant, but in that case I very much doubt KD would have joined. LeBron joined a top 5 player on a team that player had fairly recently led to a title in company with the franchise player from another team, who was a top 20 player if he was not a top 10 player, it would seem likely with collaboration ahead of time. GSW had wanted KD ever since Barnes had knocked back his contract extension in advance of any expectation of playing the Thunder in the WCF series, needed to replace Barnes their existing SF who had knocked back a contract for more money than anyone else on the team, had performed poorly in the play-offs and wanted KD money to stay. They took the best SF available whom they had the cap space to sign and who was a Free Agent in exactly the situation for which the FA rule was devised. As I have said many times I have no problem with LeBron leaving the Cavs, they were a poorly run franchise, but if he doesn’t understand fit when constructing a roster and wants to play a heliocentric brand of basketball that is his problem. Sure it was happenstance/luck that KD could be signed within the salary cap and that he was a FA at that particular point in time in NBA history, but that is it as far as I am concerned. No one has ever explained to me why KD alone among his peers was obliged as a FA to go to a destination other than the one which offered him the best prospects, particularly given he had already had a career threatening injury, a Jones fracture, during his tenure with OKC.

[Cavsfansince84]

I would like to see a thread where MJ memes are put up against LeBron memes. I would expect MJ to be the clear GOAT.

The crying Jordan meme is one of the goat memes for sure.

[Cavsfansince84]

KD joined another top 5 player on a well
Constructed team with a team game plan. If they had won the title the 73 wins would be more relevant, but in that case I very much doubt KD would have joined. LeBron joined a top 5 player on a team he had fairly recently led to a title in company with the franchise player from another team who was a top 20 player if he was not a top 10 player, it would seem likely with collaboration ahead of time. GSW had wanted KD ever since Barnes had knocked back his contract extension in advance of any expectation of playing the The Thunder in the WCF series, needed to replace their SF who had knocked back a contract for more money than anyone else on the team, had performed poorly in the play-offs and wanted KD money to stay. They took the best SF available whom they had the cap space to sign and who was a Free Agent in exactly the situation for which the FA rule was devised. As I have said many times I have no problem with LeBron leaving the Cavs, they were a poorly run franchise, but if he doesn’t understand fit when constructing a roster and wants to play a heliocentric brand of basketball that is his problem. Sure it was happenstance/luck that KD could be signed within the salary cap and that he was a FA at that particular point in time in NBA history, but that is it as far as I am concerned. No one has ever explained to me why KD alone among his peers was obliged as a FA to go to a destination other than the one with the best prospects for him, particularly given he had already had a career threatening injury, a Jones fracture, during his tenure with OKC.

Nah dude, I can't go along with anything you are saying here tbh. Your logic is going way out of bounds to make these things seem the same in your mind. Its this whole idea that KD can win in similar circumstance as LeBron that some of you are determined to see as a reality. LeBron has been the primary leader and best player on 5 different rosters that made the finals. KD did it once. Granted the Nets may have won it all if Harden hadn't been injured but it didn't happen. At the end of the day hardly any of LeBron's so called stacked teams even led the league in wins or srs. Often they weren't even top 3. The KD Warriors otoh are often seen as the goat team and had the most dominant playoff run of all time. What I responded to had way more to do with Steph and the Warriors than with KD. Someone mentioned that Steph never stacked the deck in his favor and I said he added the 3rd best player in the league to a team that had just nearly won b2b titles.

[VanWest82]

People forget this but Kevin Love was 2nd in BPM the year before joining Lebron. Cavs traded consecutive #1 overall picks for him, which even though said #1 picks didn't work out that still validates Love's status as one of the perceived top guys in the league at that time. And Bron's failure to get the most out of Love never gets properly weighed in these "teammates" debates. Or Bosh, FTM.

So by my count, Wade, Love, and AD were all considered top 5 or close to top 5 guys when they joined Lebron. Some of his very best teammates have been unlucky with injuries, but this notion that Lebron just hasn't had enough help defies logic. The better argument is Lebron doesn't seem able to consistently get the most out of star teammates. THAT's the (lack of) portability argument.

[Cavsfansince84]

People forget this but Kevin Love was 2nd in BPM the year before joining Lebron. Cavs traded consecutive #1 overall picks for him, which even though said #1 picks didn't work out that still validates Love's status as one of the perceived top guys in the league at that time. And Bron's failure to get the most out of Love never gets properly weighed in these "teammates" debates. Or Bosh, FTM.

So by my count, Wade, Love, and AD were all considered top 5 or close to top 5 guys when they joined Lebron. Some of his very best teammates have been unlucky with injuries, but this notion that Lebron just hasn't had enough help defies logic. The better argument is Lebron doesn't seem able to consistently get the most out of star teammates. THAT's the (lack of) portability argument.

Honestly I think you'd rather bang your head against the 'Love was a top 5 player and its LeBron's fault that he didn't live up to expectations as a #3' wall than ever try to see any context or flaws in that whole way of thinking. Especially as it pertains to Love's actual weaknesses as a player and how putting up numbers on mediocre teams doesn't mean a guy is actually top 5 or how bpm doesn't include defense.

[VanWest82]

People forget this but Kevin Love was 2nd in BPM the year before joining Lebron. Cavs traded consecutive #1 overall picks for him, which even though said #1 picks didn't work out that still validates Love's status as one of the perceived top guys in the league at that time. And Bron's failure to get the most out of Love never gets properly weighed in these "teammates" debates. Or Bosh, FTM.

So by my count, Wade, Love, and AD were all considered top 5 or close to top 5 guys when they joined Lebron. Some of his very best teammates have been unlucky with injuries, but this notion that Lebron just hasn't had enough help defies logic. The better argument is Lebron doesn't seem able to consistently get the most out of star teammates. THAT's the (lack of) portability argument.

Honestly I think you'd rather bang your head against the 'Love was a top 5 player and its LeBron's fault that he didn't live up to expectations as a #3' wall than ever try to see any context or flaws in that whole way of thinking. Especially as it pertains to Love's actual weaknesses as a player and how putting up numbers on mediocre teams doesn't mean a guy is actually top 5 or how bpm doesn't include defense.

Honestly I think you'd rather just completely dismiss the idea that Love was actually a really good player who Cavs didn't get the best out of than confront the fact that Lebron might've had something to do with that (just like he might've had something to do with Bosh not living up in Miami). It's so much easier to just outright dismiss criticism.

[Cavsfansince84]

Honestly I think you'd rather just completely dismiss the idea that Love was actually a really good player who Cavs didn't get the best out of than confront the fact that Lebron might've had something to do with that (just like he might've had something to do with Bosh not living up in Miami). It's so much easier to just outright dismiss criticism.

I don't think LeBron handled everything about Love on the Cavs perfectly but I do think you are way overrating him as a #1 or #2/3 on a title contending team and also overlooking his weaknesses which have absolutely nothing to do with LeBron. He had one great season as a guy putting up big numbers on a sort of bad team plus another where he was similar but not quite on that level. That doesn't make him a legit top 5 player in the league. More so because he was a negative on defense and doesn't actually create that well when he's not the focal point. He's also a streaky shooter. He had so many wide open 3's as a Cav and still wasn't shooting a high %. Then on top of that ended up having mental issues which I'm sure you'd say are somehow LeBron's fault but its just part of how he's wired I think.
Bosh in Miami actually did quite well but its up to the coach to figure stuff like that out. It's not something that's entirely on LeBron just as it was with Phil and his staff to figure out the best way to use MJ and his teammates. Spoelstra did figure out how to use Bosh but then Bosh also started having injury issues. He was never really close to being a top 5 player either though. He was a guy putting up 23/12 on bad Toronto teams.

[michaelm]

KD joined another top 5 player on a well
Constructed team with a team game plan. If they had won the title the 73 wins would be more relevant, but in that case I very much doubt KD would have joined. LeBron joined a top 5 player on a team he had fairly recently led to a title in company with the franchise player from another team who was a top 20 player if he was not a top 10 player, it would seem likely with collaboration ahead of time. GSW had wanted KD ever since Barnes had knocked back his contract extension in advance of any expectation of playing the The Thunder in the WCF series, needed to replace their SF who had knocked back a contract for more money than anyone else on the team, had performed poorly in the play-offs and wanted KD money to stay. They took the best SF available whom they had the cap space to sign and who was a Free Agent in exactly the situation for which the FA rule was devised. As I have said many times I have no problem with LeBron leaving the Cavs, they were a poorly run franchise, but if he doesn’t understand fit when constructing a roster and wants to play a heliocentric brand of basketball that is his problem. Sure it was happenstance/luck that KD could be signed within the salary cap and that he was a FA at that particular point in time in NBA history, but that is it as far as I am concerned. No one has ever explained to me why KD alone among his peers was obliged as a FA to go to a destination other than the one with the best prospects for him, particularly given he had already had a career threatening injury, a Jones fracture, during his tenure with OKC.

Nah dude, I can't go along with anything you are saying here tbh. Your logic is going way out of bounds to make these things seem the same in your mind. Its this whole idea that KD can win in similar circumstance as LeBron that some of you are determined to see as a reality. LeBron has been the primary leader and best player on 5 different rosters that made the finals. KD did it once. Granted the Nets may have won it all if Harden hadn't been injured but it didn't happen. At the end of the day hardly any of LeBron's so called stacked teams even led the league in wins or srs. Often they weren't even top 3. The KD Warriors otoh are often seen as the goat team and had the most dominant playoff run of all time. What I responded to had way more to do with Steph and the Warriors than with KD. Someone mentioned that Steph never stacked the deck in his favor and I said he added the 3rd best player in the league to a team that had just nearly won b2b titles.

I don't think Curry or KD is better than Lebron, and have not much interest in yet another Lebron vs MJ thread, but chanced upon your post were you posit KD and/or GSW stacked their team as opposed to Lebron, the biggest stacker of them all. He was perfectly entitled to do so with the Heatles and on his return to the Cavs imo , but as I said and you appear to have ignored it is the calling out of KD and to a lesser extent GSW for team stacking by Lebron fans in particular to which I object/find hypocritical. LeBron wanted to break the NBA with the Heatles and told the world this was his aim, which apparently should now be regarded as hyperbole, GSW told KD they could break the NBA with him and did so for one season at least, when that team was well in contention for being the best of all time. Why on earth shouldn't they have constructed the best team of all time if they could ?.

[MavsDirk41]

You say the supporting cast wasn't good, but they won literally 2 fewer games without Jordan the next season. That supporting cast lost a GOAT player and still won 55 games. How is that not a stacked supporting cast?

Remember when LeBron's Cavs went 61-21, then he left the team and they went 19-63 the next season? I do.

They had played together for multiple seasons and won 3 championships together. They ran the triangle offense. Same coaching staff. Its called consistency. They were a well oiled machine. Besides, what was their record when Jordan came back in 95 to play the last 16 games of the season. Off the top of my head they were around .500.

James dominates the ball like Harden, Westbrook, and Luka. Everybody else stands around and watches what they do. The triangle offense involves everybody. Not just one guy pounding the ball for 20 seconds.

How about this. Miami lost the finals in 2011 cause James was mediocre. Wade outplayed him. Even when losing to Birds Celtics and The Pistons Jordan still played well. Name a time when Jordan no showed in a playoff series. Name a series when he was outplayed by another player on his team.

The supporting staff wasn't good, but they had a great record and almost won as many games without Jordan because the triangle and consistency? LOL! Teams don't just win 55 games out of nowhere. It's the NBA - you don't luck into good records. That obviously shows that the team was talented. That supporting cast was obviously great. They are what their record showed. It's OK to admit it.

Using a single series to make your point isn't very convincing. It's such a small sample size. When you make the playoffs as often as LeBron, you're bound to have a bad series sometime. I haven't looked it up, but I'd imagine LeBron has played around 3x as many playoff series as MJ. We're going to act like he can't have one bad series when's he's played in that many? LOL

Who said luck? Yea they were good but not “stacked” they won 3 championships together and had played mutilple seasons together. Did you watch those teams play in the 90s or just going off a basketball forum?

Its not just a bad series its the NBA finals. If you are talking about goat player, playing like that in the nba finals is a big deal. Its the biggest stage where goat level players should shine. The lights were too bright for him. Its ok to admit it. But dont act like the finals is the same as playing bad in a playoff series. Come on.

Did Jordan ever collude with other all star players? Nah, i dont think he did.

[70sFan]

People forget this but Kevin Love was 2nd in BPM the year before joining Lebron. Cavs traded consecutive #1 overall picks for him, which even though said #1 picks didn't work out that still validates Love's status as one of the perceived top guys in the league at that time. And Bron's failure to get the most out of Love never gets properly weighed in these "teammates" debates. Or Bosh, FTM.

So by my count, Wade, Love, and AD were all considered top 5 or close to top 5 guys when they joined Lebron. Some of his very best teammates have been unlucky with injuries, but this notion that Lebron just hasn't had enough help defies logic. The better argument is Lebron doesn't seem able to consistently get the most out of star teammates. THAT's the (lack of) portability argument.

Love and LeBron pairing was absurdly good on the court. It seems that you care more about Love scoring more points than giving Cavs actual results.

[MavsDirk41]

They had played together for multiple seasons and won 3 championships together. They ran the triangle offense. Same coaching staff. Its called consistency. They were a well oiled machine. Besides, what was their record when Jordan came back in 95 to play the last 16 games of the season. Off the top of my head they were around .500.

James dominates the ball like Harden, Westbrook, and Luka. Everybody else stands around and watches what they do. The triangle offense involves everybody. Not just one guy pounding the ball for 20 seconds.

How about this. Miami lost the finals in 2011 cause James was mediocre. Wade outplayed him. Even when losing to Birds Celtics and The Pistons Jordan still played well. Name a time when Jordan no showed in a playoff series. Name a series when he was outplayed by another player on his team.

The part about pounding the ball for 20 sec is pure hyperbole when we have stats that track this and LeBron yearly ranks behind those guys in terms of time per possession. MJ didn't want to even use the triangle to begin with either. He's incredibly lucky that he got to play under Phil, Tex and Johnny Bach. It's also very subjective to say he played well against the Pistons. He wasn't close to what he was against most other teams of that era. He'd have 1-2 big games per series and 1-2 bad ones then look good but still mortal in the others. Better than LeBron in 2011? ya I'd agree but I don't think one series defines a player's legacy even for goat level players. MJ also looked sort of bad against the Knicks as well at times.

Was Jordan perfect? No of course not. Did he benefit from
the triangle? Yes of course. Were those Pistons and Knick teams physical as hell? Yes they were. Anybody going up against those teams took a pounding.

[VanWest82]

People forget this but Kevin Love was 2nd in BPM the year before joining Lebron. Cavs traded consecutive #1 overall picks for him, which even though said #1 picks didn't work out that still validates Love's status as one of the perceived top guys in the league at that time. And Bron's failure to get the most out of Love never gets properly weighed in these "teammates" debates. Or Bosh, FTM.

So by my count, Wade, Love, and AD were all considered top 5 or close to top 5 guys when they joined Lebron. Some of his very best teammates have been unlucky with injuries, but this notion that Lebron just hasn't had enough help defies logic. The better argument is Lebron doesn't seem able to consistently get the most out of star teammates. THAT's the (lack of) portability argument.

Love and LeBron pairing was absurdly good on the court. It seems that you care more about Love scoring more points than giving Cavs actual results.

Seems like you're speculating wildly and foolishly, and you'd be wrong.

Edit: Lebron took on so much offensively in 2018 that he'd go huge stretches in games standing in the same spot on defense to conserve energy. You can't tell me Love couldn't have done more for that team.

[MavsDirk41]

Honestly I think you'd rather just completely dismiss the idea that Love was actually a really good player who Cavs didn't get the best out of than confront the fact that Lebron might've had something to do with that (just like he might've had something to do with Bosh not living up in Miami). It's so much easier to just outright dismiss criticism.

I don't think LeBron handled everything about Love on the Cavs perfectly but I do think you are way overrating him as a #1 or #2/3 on a title contending team and also overlooking his weaknesses which have absolutely nothing to do with LeBron. He had one great season as a guy putting up big numbers on a sort of bad team plus another where he was similar but not quite on that level. That doesn't make him a legit top 5 player in the league. More so because he was a negative on defense and doesn't actually create that well when he's not the focal point. He's also a streaky shooter. He had so many wide open 3's as a Cav and still wasn't shooting a high %. Then on top of that ended up having mental issues which I'm sure you'd say are somehow LeBron's fault but its just part of how he's wired I think.
Bosh in Miami actually did quite well but its up to the coach to figure stuff like that out. It's not something that's entirely on LeBron just as it was with Phil and his staff to figure out the best way to use MJ and his teammates. Spoelstra did figure out how to use Bosh but then Bosh also started having injury issues. He was never really close to being a top 5 player either though. He was a guy putting up 23/12 on bad Toronto teams.

Love was a beast before going to Cleveland. His biggest problem was his best teammate was Kelvin Martin for several years. In Cleveland he was regulated to a spot up shooter. He was a good post player in Minnesota.

[70sFan]

People forget this but Kevin Love was 2nd in BPM the year before joining Lebron. Cavs traded consecutive #1 overall picks for him, which even though said #1 picks didn't work out that still validates Love's status as one of the perceived top guys in the league at that time. And Bron's failure to get the most out of Love never gets properly weighed in these "teammates" debates. Or Bosh, FTM.

So by my count, Wade, Love, and AD were all considered top 5 or close to top 5 guys when they joined Lebron. Some of his very best teammates have been unlucky with injuries, but this notion that Lebron just hasn't had enough help defies logic. The better argument is Lebron doesn't seem able to consistently get the most out of star teammates. THAT's the (lack of) portability argument.

Love and LeBron pairing was absurdly good on the court. It seems that you care more about Love scoring more points than giving Cavs actual results.

Seems like you're speculating wildly and foolishly, and you'd be wrong.

Then what's your point? Love impact was maximized as a stretch big with passing skills. It made Cavs one of the best offensive teams in playoffs history. He didn't play like in Minny because he wasn't good enough to do that on top playoff offense with two elite ball-handlers. Love wouldn't average 25 ppg next to Jordan either.

Edit: just saw your edit. Cavs tried to give Love the bigger role many times in 2018 playoffs. Love didn't operate as the floor spacer during that run and he even got his chances in the post. He was just horrible in that run.