Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

[Jfh20]

MJ obviously the better closer. LeBron very well could be the better player for one of the quarters. But not all 4.

na, not even a single quarter. theres nothing about lebrons game that makes him better than jordan. Lebron can say he is better than all other players in nba history if he likes, but MJ will always be that one ghost he will be chasing, he is not good enough.

[Sark]

PC board stands for Prolebron Circlejerk.

[MavsDirk41]

Go for it.

Sorry - led the league in steals 3 years

LMAO! You know who also lead the league in steals for 3 years? Allen Iverson. He must be a top tier defender.

I thought people only used steals to judge defensive prowess as a joke now a days? Is that what you were doing?

So leading the league in steals is not impressive to you? Ok man! You gonna answer my question about Jordan ever colluding with other star players? Your avoiding that huh? Again you have your right to your opinion. Im not changing your and your not changing mine.

[OhayoKD]

Sorry - led the league in steals 3 years

LMAO! You know who also lead the league in steals for 3 years? Allen Iverson. He must be a top tier defender.

I thought people only used steals to judge defensive prowess as a joke now a days? Is that what you were doing?

So leading the league in steals is not impressive to you? Ok man! You gonna answer my question about Jordan ever colluding with other star players? Your avoiding that huh? Again you have your right to your opinion. Im not changing your and your not changing mine.

You do realize the 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8). Jordan didn't collude because he had no reason to, and even then, before the Bulls added Rodman to an already loaded cast, Jordan actually was trying to collude with Ewing and was about to join the Knicks who had just lost the nba finals in 7 games.

I'll get to the other stuff later, but uhh, I don't think this really holds up. Jordan was completely willing to bail when convenient, and his teams were loaded in a way none of Lebron's were(Miami was 40-win without, cavs were 20 win-without, 2nd stint were 20-30ish wins without depending on what you use)

[Taj FTW]

LMAO! You know who also lead the league in steals for 3 years? Allen Iverson. He must be a top tier defender.

I thought people only used steals to judge defensive prowess as a joke now a days? Is that what you were doing?

So leading the league in steals is not impressive to you? Ok man! You gonna answer my question about Jordan ever colluding with other star players? Your avoiding that huh? Again you have your right to your opinion. Im not changing your and your not changing mine.

You do realize the 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8). Jordan didn't collude because he had no reason to, and even then, before the Bulls added Rodman to an already loaded cast, Jordan actually was trying to collude with Ewing and was about to join the Knicks who had just lost the nba finals in 7 games.

I'll get to the other stuff later, but uhh, I don't think this really holds up. Jordan was completely willing to bail when convenient, and his teams were loaded in a way none of Lebron's were(Miami was 40-win without, cavs were 20 win-without, 2nd stint were 20-30ish wins without depending on what you use)

That's what I didn't bother responding to that. It's such an absolutely weak argument. Larry, Magic and MJ were gifted great teams. We're going to act like those guys would stay in freaking Cleveland if the front office put NOTHING around them? It's such an intellectually dishonesty argument.

[RTG HD]

I still think Wilt was the GOAT but for some reason people want it to be someone more recent.

[MavsDirk41]

LMAO! You know who also lead the league in steals for 3 years? Allen Iverson. He must be a top tier defender.

I thought people only used steals to judge defensive prowess as a joke now a days? Is that what you were doing?

So leading the league in steals is not impressive to you? Ok man! You gonna answer my question about Jordan ever colluding with other star players? Your avoiding that huh? Again you have your right to your opinion. Im not changing your and your not changing mine.

You do realize the 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8). Jordan didn't collude because he had no reason to, and even then, before the Bulls added Rodman to an already loaded cast, Jordan actually was trying to collude with Ewing and was about to join the Knicks who had just lost the nba finals in 7 games.

I'll get to the other stuff later, but uhh, I don't think this really holds up. Jordan was completely willing to bail when convenient, and his teams were loaded in a way none of Lebron's were(Miami was 40-win without, cavs were 20 win-without, 2nd stint were 20-30ish wins without depending on what you use)

Jordan actually was trying to collude lol. Dont know where you got this info but did Jordan ever don a Knicks jersey? I tried to win a million dollars playing the lottery but did I? Trying and almost are words alot of you lebron james guys like to put on here. Did James team up with Bosh and Wade? Did he leave Cleveland to join Kyrie Irving knowing Cleveland was going to trade that pick for Love? Did him and his friend Rich Paul collude with Davis to force the Pelicans to trade him to LA? Were there reports that James was talking to Leonard about him joining the Lakers? Well yes unless Brad Botkin of CBS is lying. All of this is true. James has played with numerous all star, HOF, league mvp players in his career. He was also pushing the Lakers to acquire Kyrie Irving a couple weeks ago. And he left a team with a future HOF coach and first class organization when he left Miami for greener pastures. No more “whoa is me” for James please im not buying that. Your not changing my opinion anymore than im changing yours my friend.

[MavsDirk41]

So leading the league in steals is not impressive to you? Ok man! You gonna answer my question about Jordan ever colluding with other star players? Your avoiding that huh? Again you have your right to your opinion. Im not changing your and your not changing mine.

You do realize the 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8). Jordan didn't collude because he had no reason to, and even then, before the Bulls added Rodman to an already loaded cast, Jordan actually was trying to collude with Ewing and was about to join the Knicks who had just lost the nba finals in 7 games.

I'll get to the other stuff later, but uhh, I don't think this really holds up. Jordan was completely willing to bail when convenient, and his teams were loaded in a way none of Lebron's were(Miami was 40-win without, cavs were 20 win-without, 2nd stint were 20-30ish wins without depending on what you use)

That's what I didn't bother responding to that. It's such an absolutely weak argument. Larry, Magic and MJ were gifted great teams. We're going to act like those guys would stay in freaking Cleveland if the front office put NOTHING around them? It's such an intellectually dishonesty argument.

Gifted teams? Jordan played with Dave Corzine, Quintin Dailey, Orlando Woolridge, and Dave Greenwood his first few years in the league. Pippen was drafted in 87 but he took about 3 years to develop.

1990 Eastern Conference Finals game 7

Jordan 13/27 31/8/9
Pippen 1/10 2/4/2
Grant 3/17 10/14
Cartwright 3/9 6/5
Hodges 3/13 8/3/2

What did James do after leaving Cleveland? I respect the guy who stuck around and won for the franchise that drafted him and didnt bounce around multiple times. You can disagree tho.

[Taj FTW]

You do realize the 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8). Jordan didn't collude because he had no reason to, and even then, before the Bulls added Rodman to an already loaded cast, Jordan actually was trying to collude with Ewing and was about to join the Knicks who had just lost the nba finals in 7 games.

I'll get to the other stuff later, but uhh, I don't think this really holds up. Jordan was completely willing to bail when convenient, and his teams were loaded in a way none of Lebron's were(Miami was 40-win without, cavs were 20 win-without, 2nd stint were 20-30ish wins without depending on what you use)

That's what I didn't bother responding to that. It's such an absolutely weak argument. Larry, Magic and MJ were gifted great teams. We're going to act like those guys would stay in freaking Cleveland if the front office put NOTHING around them? It's such an intellectually dishonesty argument.

Gifted teams? Jordan played with Dave Corzine, Quintin Dailey, Orlando Woolridge, and Dave Greenwood his first few years in the league. Pippen was drafted in 87 but he took about 3 years to develop.

1990 Eastern Conference Finals game 7

Jordan 13/27 31/8/9
Pippen 1/10 2/4/2
Grant 3/17 10/14
Cartwright 3/9 6/5
Hodges 3/13 8/3/2

What did James do after leaving Cleveland? I respect the guy who stuck around and won for the franchise that drafted him and didnt bounce around multiple times. You can disagree tho.

Lol you're really using ONE game to make your point that MJ didn't have a good supporting cast? I've seen enough. You're getting put on ignore.

[MavsDirk41]

That's what I didn't bother responding to that. It's such an absolutely weak argument. Larry, Magic and MJ were gifted great teams. We're going to act like those guys would stay in freaking Cleveland if the front office put NOTHING around them? It's such an intellectually dishonesty argument.

Gifted teams? Jordan played with Dave Corzine, Quintin Dailey, Orlando Woolridge, and Dave Greenwood his first few years in the league. Pippen was drafted in 87 but he took about 3 years to develop.

1990 Eastern Conference Finals game 7

Jordan 13/27 31/8/9
Pippen 1/10 2/4/2
Grant 3/17 10/14
Cartwright 3/9 6/5
Hodges 3/13 8/3/2

What did James do after leaving Cleveland? I respect the guy who stuck around and won for the franchise that drafted him and didnt bounce around multiple times. You can disagree tho.

Lol you're really using ONE game to make your point that MJ didn't have a good supporting cast? I've seen enough. You're getting put on ignore.

Oh man now im just upset and dont know what to do “rats”

[MavsDirk41]

That's what I didn't bother responding to that. It's such an absolutely weak argument. Larry, Magic and MJ were gifted great teams. We're going to act like those guys would stay in freaking Cleveland if the front office put NOTHING around them? It's such an intellectually dishonesty argument.

Gifted teams? Jordan played with Dave Corzine, Quintin Dailey, Orlando Woolridge, and Dave Greenwood his first few years in the league. Pippen was drafted in 87 but he took about 3 years to develop.

1990 Eastern Conference Finals game 7

Jordan 13/27 31/8/9
Pippen 1/10 2/4/2
Grant 3/17 10/14
Cartwright 3/9 6/5
Hodges 3/13 8/3/2

What did James do after leaving Cleveland? I respect the guy who stuck around and won for the franchise that drafted him and didnt bounce around multiple times. You can disagree tho.

Lol you're really using ONE game to make your point that MJ didn't have a good supporting cast? I've seen enough. You're getting put on ignore.

I got to add one more line that i think its funny how all these other star players that you mention were gifted teams and ole James had to do it the hard way cause he never played with anybody - never seen a player so misunderstood

[Taj FTW]

Gifted teams? Jordan played with Dave Corzine, Quintin Dailey, Orlando Woolridge, and Dave Greenwood his first few years in the league. Pippen was drafted in 87 but he took about 3 years to develop.

1990 Eastern Conference Finals game 7

Jordan 13/27 31/8/9
Pippen 1/10 2/4/2
Grant 3/17 10/14
Cartwright 3/9 6/5
Hodges 3/13 8/3/2

What did James do after leaving Cleveland? I respect the guy who stuck around and won for the franchise that drafted him and didnt bounce around multiple times. You can disagree tho.

Lol you're really using ONE game to make your point that MJ didn't have a good supporting cast? I've seen enough. You're getting put on ignore.

I got to add one more line that i think its funny how all these other star players that you mention were gifted teams and ole James had to do it the hard way cause he never played with anybody - never seen a player so misunderstood

Before I ignore you, is that wrong? Was he ever given a good supporting cast during his first stint? And would any other player win with what he was given in Cleveland?

[MavsDirk41]

Lol you're really using ONE game to make your point that MJ didn't have a good supporting cast? I've seen enough. You're getting put on ignore.

I got to add one more line that i think its funny how all these other star players that you mention were gifted teams and ole James had to do it the hard way cause he never played with anybody - never seen a player so misunderstood

Before I ignore you, is that wrong? Was he ever given a good supporting cast during his first stint? And would any other player win with what he was given in Cleveland?

I dont blame lebron james for leaving Cleveland at all. I never said i did. I dont really care for what he did once he left Cleveland. He formed a superteam in Miami with two other allstar players. Wade was probably the best player in the league in 06. Then he set himself up in Cleveland when he went back, and colluded with Davis while the 2019 season was still going on because he knew he couldnt win with that Lakers roster. Look man i still think he is top 3 player of all time. The guy is amazing. But im taking Jordan and Kareem over him career wise. Agree or disagree man but its my opinion.

[MavsDirk41]

Lol you're really using ONE game to make your point that MJ didn't have a good supporting cast? I've seen enough. You're getting put on ignore.

I got to add one more line that i think its funny how all these other star players that you mention were gifted teams and ole James had to do it the hard way cause he never played with anybody - never seen a player so misunderstood

Before I ignore you, is that wrong? Was he ever given a good supporting cast during his first stint? And would any other player win with what he was given in Cleveland?

And could any other player win with what he had in Cleveland? Who knows? Maybe, maybe not. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Duncan, and Kareem might have who knows. These guys are nba legends who made their teams great so maybe they could have. We will never know.

[SweetTouch]

if you was the goat you wouldn't need the public to say you the goat

basketball sport is too sensitive, needs to be more like soccer

[OhayoKD]

You do realize the 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8). Jordan didn't collude because he had no reason to, and even then, before the Bulls added Rodman to an already loaded cast, Jordan actually was trying to collude with Ewing and was about to join the Knicks who had just lost the nba finals in 7 games.

I'll get to the other stuff later, but uhh, I don't think this really holds up. Jordan was completely willing to bail when convenient, and his teams were loaded in a way none of Lebron's were(Miami was 40-win without, cavs were 20 win-without, 2nd stint were 20-30ish wins without depending on what you use)

That's what I didn't bother responding to that. It's such an absolutely weak argument. Larry, Magic and MJ were gifted great teams. We're going to act like those guys would stay in freaking Cleveland if the front office put NOTHING around them? It's such an intellectually dishonesty argument.

Gifted teams? Jordan played with Dave Corzine, Quintin Dailey, Orlando Woolridge, and Dave Greenwood his first few years in the league. Pippen was drafted in 87 but he took about 3 years to develop.

Bulls with all those players won 27 games before drafting Jordan which is comparable to the second-stint cavs without lebron(How? bulls were a average defense, cavs were a bad one with two lineup negatives) and better than the first stint cavs without lebron(drafted onto a 17 win team, 20 win(actually 15 if we use pre-trade stuff) when he left

Guess who won 66/61 and guess who was stuck at 50 before the triangle instantly made the team skyrocket

[OldSchoolNoBull]

You do realize the 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8). Jordan didn't collude because he had no reason to, and even then, before the Bulls added Rodman to an already loaded cast, Jordan actually was trying to collude with Ewing and was about to join the Knicks who had just lost the nba finals in 7 games.

I'll get to the other stuff later, but uhh, I don't think this really holds up. Jordan was completely willing to bail when convenient, and his teams were loaded in a way none of Lebron's were(Miami was 40-win without, cavs were 20 win-without, 2nd stint were 20-30ish wins without depending on what you use)

A few things here.

1. I said this earlier in the thread when it was brought up, but I'll quote myself - the 55 wins overstates the 94 Bulls. SRS dropped from 6.19(4th in the league) in 1993 to 2.87(11th in the league) in 1994. So the 94 team had an SRS nearly 3.3 points lower than the lowest SRS of any of the championship teams.

The team's Net Rtg dropped from +6.8(2nd in the league) in 1993 to +3.3(11th in the league), the drop occurring mostly on the offensive side of the ball. So, the 94 team had a Net Rtg 3.5 points lower than the lowest Net Rtg of any of the championship teams.

They were a solid team and it was maybe the best coaching performance of Phil Jackson's career, but they were playing over their heads. They won something like ten games by a margin of two points or less(and a few more by three points). They very easily could've been a sub-50 win team. Simply looking at 57 wins in 93 and 55 wins in 94 dramatically undersells how much better they were with Jordan.

2. I don't know if you are mistaken or what, but your facts with regard to Jordan and the Knicks are off. Jordan was a free agent in 1996. It had been two years since the Knicks were in the Finals, and in fact they were coming off two straight second round losses, the most recent to Jordan himself and the Bulls en route to the 96 title just months earlier. Jordan was coming off 72 wins and his fourth ring, why would he have needed to team up with anyone else, much less a guy he'd beaten in the playoffs five times? What actually happened was that Jordan's eight-year contract had expired, and in those eight years, the money had exploded in the league. He had been making comically less than his worth from his NBA contract for years. This thing with the Knicks was about money. He wanted to get paid, and this was before there were max contracts. The Knicks offered a crazy amount of money between their cap space and an under-the-table component of the deal. Jordan wanted the Bulls to match what the Knicks were offering. Reinsdorf took a minute to hold his nose before agreeing to the then-historic 30M for one season. As soon as Reinsdorf matched the offer, Jordan agreed and that was that. There are plenty of people who don't believe Jordan was ever serious about the Knicks and was simply using them for leverage in the way that we see players use teams for leverage all the time every summer.

3. You often judge these rosters that LeBron joined/built by the result; i.e. Wade declined faster than many thought he would, Bosh's role had to be reduced some from what it had been(they used him more as a stretch five), Kyrie and Love didn't do anything without LeBron, etc. That's all accurate but it doesn't change the intent of what he did.

I think most of us can accept why he left Cleveland in 2010. But there were all kinds of teams rolling out the red carpet for him. He could've gone to Chicago to play with D-Rose, Noah, and Boozer, he could've played in New York with Amare, etc, but instead he chose to play with Wade - regarded by everybody in 2010 as a top 5 player - and Bosh - regarded by most as a top 10-12 player - in Miami. He made that decision because he thought it would be the easiest path to championships, as evidenced by the "not1, not 2, etc" rally.

The evidence suggests that he wanted the Lakers to trade the farm for AD from day one with the Lakers. They tried to do it half a season into his tenure there, at the deadline in his first season there, and then were publicly salty when the Pelicans wouldn't agree.

Leaving Miami for Cleveland is more of grey area for me, because I do believe he genuinely wanted to win a championship for Cleveland, and I still believe that ring meant more to him than the others, but he still made the decision knowing about, and perhaps being involved in, the move to trade that #1 pick for Love.

Regardless of how things actually turned out on the court, there is a pattern here in his decision-making, and trying to equate Jordan simply wanting to get paid in 1996 is, I feel, inaccurate.

[twyzted]

LMAO! You know who also lead the league in steals for 3 years? Allen Iverson. He must be a top tier defender.

I thought people only used steals to judge defensive prowess as a joke now a days? Is that what you were doing?

So leading the league in steals is not impressive to you? Ok man! You gonna answer my question about Jordan ever colluding with other star players? Your avoiding that huh? Again you have your right to your opinion. Im not changing your and your not changing mine.

You do realize the 1995 Bulls played at a 53-win pace(per srs which is more predictive and adjusts for opponent quality) without their best and third best player? The 1994 Bulls, at full strength(pippen and grant missed time) played like a 58-win team and elevated signficantly in the playoffs(+5 to +8).

The bulls were 34-31 before Jordan came back and ended that season on a 13-4 run, that gives you 53 win pace with your best and 2nd best player. So there is no way a team that has 52% winning record after 80% of the season is playing at a 53 win pace unless ofcourse you add the greatest player to your team. They wouldve ended at 42-43 wins if Jordan didnt come back.

I'll get to the other stuff later, but uhh, I don't think this really holds up. Jordan was completely willing to bail when convenient, and his teams were loaded in a way none of Lebron's were(Miami was 40-win without, cavs were 20 win-without, 2nd stint were 20-30ish wins without depending on what you use)

Ofcourse a well constructed team with good coaching will do well after adding kukoc, longley, kerr to the rotation even if they lose the greatest. I have never understood this way of thinking that a team should be complete trash if 1 player is missing. If that is the thinking then Grant was more important then Pippen since the bulls got a lot worse when he left.

Jordan didn't collude because he had no reason to, and even then, before the Bulls added Rodman to an already loaded cast, Jordan actually was trying to collude with Ewing and was about to join the Knicks who had just lost the nba finals in 7 games.

No but nice try at revising history.

Knicks went to the finals in 93/94.
Jordan came back in 94/95.
Bulls won the title in 95/96.
In that summer Jordan became a free agent for the first time since 1988.
In the 95/96 season Jordan was 32nd highest paid nba player. So after leading the record breaking bulls to a title while winning mvp&fmvp, he wanted to get paid as such.
I dont know how the knicks were going to sign Jordan to a 25 million dollar contract when the salary cap was 24,5 million.

So let me get this straight the bulls were the **** in not paying pippen.
Jordan is the **** in wanting to get paid.

but yeah you really hate Jordan and have no problem in lying to fit your narrative.

[Salieri]

I'm gonna repeat what I said because it's still true, after a bunch of pages of discussion:

I have no dog in this fight, but arguments wise, LeBron advocates are doing a much better job than Jordan ones on average.

Instead of resorting to ad hominems (you just hate Jordan), refuting points right before making them themselves (Jordan trying to collude? He never went forward with it, that point is invalid. Except I'm gonna use it to attack LeBron for trying to collude with Kawhi) and using anecdotal examples (1 game proves that the Bulls were not stacked), maybe the Jordan supporters should want to put forward convincing arguments towards MJ. Of which there are many, I'm sure of that.

If a smart group of individuals who never watched basketball were to read this thread, they would be convinced that LeBron has in fact better arguments impact wise for being the GOAT. And that's due to the poor job being done by the pro-MJ crowd, not because MJ was actually worse.

I just wish some of the more knowledgeable pro-Jordan posters saw this thread and decided to contribute. The debate level would rise, instead of devolving into repeating platitudes that have no relevance in the impact discussion. Respecting the guy who "stuck around and won with the franchise that drafted him" is all well and good, but that doesn't make MJ more impactful.

[Taj FTW]

So leading the league in steals is not impressive to you? Ok man! You gonna answer my question about Jordan ever colluding with other star players? Your avoiding that huh? Again you have your right to your opinion. Im not changing your and your not changing mine.

I'm gonna repeat what I said because it's still true, after a bunch of pages of discussion:

I have no dog in this fight, but arguments wise, LeBron advocates are doing a much better job than Jordan ones on average.

Instead of resorting to ad hominems (you just hate Jordan), refuting points right before making them themselves (Jordan trying to collude? He never went forward with it, that point is invalid. Except I'm gonna use it to attack LeBron for trying to collude with Kawhi) and using anecdotal examples (1 game proves that the Bulls were not stacked), maybe the Jordan supporters should want to put forward convincing arguments towards MJ. Of which there are many, I'm sure of that.

If a smart group of individuals who never watched basketball were to read this thread, they would be convinced that LeBron has in fact better arguments impact wise for being the GOAT. And that's due to the poor job being done by the pro-MJ crowd, not because MJ was actually worse.

I just wish some of the more knowledgeable pro-Jordan posters saw this thread and decided to contribute. The debate level would rise, instead of devolving into repeating platitudes that have no relevance in the impact discussion. Respecting the guy who "stuck around and won with the franchise that drafted him" is all well and good, but that doesn't make MJ more impactful.

Well said Salieri.