2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - The KD era begins

[bwgood77]

So If no Love (poor decision by him I think), We traded Saric for Bazely who we'll likely not play/develop much this season anyways. That leaves our big rotation as .......................................... Ayton/ Biyombo/ Landale. And our possible 4 rotation as KD/Warren/ Ish/ Craig/ Bazely???? We're gonna get destroyed by teams in the playoffs. Aside from maybe KD himself, not sure if any of those can reasonably defend the plethora of much bigger dominant postseason frontcourts we'll be facing in strategic matchups? We desperately need another quality frontcourt big who could rebound, provide weakside defense, and moderately space the floor. Love would've been great! But apparently he wants to prioritize lesser options to hopefully play with Westbrook? His loss obviously!

Our C/PF rotation is fine. The narrative that bigger teams punish smaller teams in the playoffs is an exaggeration. This isn't 1990's basketball, and in the playoffs teams don't suddenly change scripts and try to change their entire offensive scheme. I do want to mention that teams should remain flexible in having the ability to change their offense, but I think the Suns will be the most versatile team to do that come playoff time.

Also, what teams are going to destroy the Suns because the Suns are smaller? The top team in the West have Jokic, and then 6'8 Aaron Gordon and 6'8 Michael Porter Jr. The Grizzlies have Adams and JJJ, but JJJ is not really a post player taking more than 1/3 of his shots at the 3P line. The 3rd place Kings are running a small ball lineup, and the Clippers traditionally try and play small ball to run opposing teams out of the gym (similar to SSOL Suns). Pelicans and Wolves are currently 7th and 8th in the West with last year champs Warriors sitting in 9th and Lakers down sitting 5 games below .500.

I think above all though, you have it backwards. Teams are going to have to worry about how they are going to guard the Suns (if everyone is healthy).

Porter is 6-10
Then they have Bryant now with 6-11
Then Gancar at 6-9 at least.

Clippers have Zubac at 7-2
Plumlee at 6-10
Morris at 6-9
Batum at 6-8

Grizzlies have Adams at 7-0
JJJ at 6-10/6-11
Then Aldama at 6-11
Then Clarke at 6-10/6-11

The Jazz, that could be in the mix, have

Markannen at 7-0
Kessler at 7-0
Olynik at 6-11
Azubuike at 6-11

Sacramento is not that small, as they play Sabonis, Barnes and another SF-PF at the same time. Then they make use of Lyles and others.

Clarke is 6'8

If you are putting some backups in there, we have, starting,

Ayton - 7'0
KD - 6'10
Landale - 6'11
Biyombo - 6'8, but a solid defender/rebounder
Also, Craig is a great rebounder and solid defender and is 6'7

But if teams go big and we go smaller, they will have trouble guarding us. Memphis could guard our bigs ok, but they couldn't double KD, and as good as JJJ is on, KD is still almost impossible to guard given his length and shot creation.

[lilfishi22]

Awesome point with DA! So tell me what happens if he just happens to go down with another injury and misses time in a series, Or if he gets in early foul trouble in a series. Keeping in mind that the refs have never really given him the benefit of foul calls anyways, as well as taking into consideration that sans Ayton, teams will strategize against Biyombo's lack of shooting/ ability to hit free throws, and Landale's inability to space the floor effectively or defend at a high level and his propensity to commit dumb fouls. In any event wherein Ayton isn't a factor in a postseason series, Which of Biyombo or Landale do you really feel competent manning that spot against the elite postseason bigs and big dominant frontcourts if needed to play heavy minutes? It just seems to me that gambling our entire postseason success on a great deal of luck surrounding Ayton specifically is not a good thing! But I'll definitely find it entertaining to see how yours' and Qwiggle's perspectives turn out on this.

You could make the same argument for any other team. What if AG misses time? What if JJJr gets into foul trouble? What if ANY of the other starting bigs misses time? Which team has a strong playoff rotation if their starting big misses time?

Let's be real, most team's rotations are just as trash if their starting big misses time. If Zubac goes down and they replace him with Plumlee, yeah maybe there isn't a massive drop off but what's after that? Mook Morris? Batum? They aren't dominating anything in the paint. Not saying we don't have to add depth because depth is always a good thing but the idea that we're in some unique situation where if our starting C does down then we're in trouble is kinda of overblown.

I hear what you're saying man and it's a fair argument that any team could suffer injuries and other teams depth could be questioned too. But why at all would I be concerned with or invested in another team's depth and injuries equitably to our own as a suns fan?? Any issues for ANOTHER TEAM could only play to our benefit. Obviously I'm invested in our team's success here and within that capacity focusing on our potential depth/ injuries issues and concerns because I prefer to see us finally win a championship after over a half century of creatively finding new ways to lose, choke, come up short, fail expectations, etc or whatever anyone here prefers to phrase it as. It becomes increasingly paramount due to the cost we've paid in the trade to acquire Durant by heavily mortgaging our long term future. I could care less about these other teams concerns as I'm not a fan of their teams and don't consider their implicit stakes involved as heavy as ours dependent upon the final outcome! Have any other teams actually in a similar situation (aside from maybe the Clippers) mortgaged their future through surrendering core pieces, positional roster depth, cost controlled draft assets, cap flexibility for the foreseeable future?? And IF so, compare the acquired piece in terms of long term projection/viability considering age, durability concerns and overall roster composition long term! Only the Flakers and maybe the Clippers should be found in a somewhat similar situation in terms of what they've mortgaged for an "all in" move! That's why in my humble estimation, If you're legitimately gambling with such significant long term assets exchange to go "all in" towards winning a championship, It's critically important to try and mitigate or shore up any potential weaknesses or deficiencies towards the postseason WHEREIN we all know the elite teams we'll have to beat to even get back to the finals will absolutely be dissecting and strategizing against us using these weaknesses in various matchup schemes.

Knowing and accepting that it already takes a tremendous amount of luck to even make it to the finals and win a championship, and understanding that even though the game slows down, the postseason becomes exponentially more physical, grinding, difficult and strategic matchups will be prevalent, depth absolutely becomes a very tangible concern. Now how that factors into my initial premise of needing another big for depth is as simple as the fact that another team's injuries are irrelevant to my initial premise. For example, IF by some chance Ayton does go down to an injury or even has to sit due to foul trouble (it's not like he gets the benefit of the whistles now is it)? Then we really only have Biyombo, who while solid defensively has nearly no offensive game to speak of and can't hit free throws either. Now what's to keep opposing teams from systematically targeting him with the "hack a Shaq" strategy or simply sagging off of him and packing in the paint to further complicate trying to score in the midrange? And with Landale not being able to adequately space the floor either or even defend well without making continuous dumb fouls that could render him irrelevant? On top of that, Which of those two bigs (given what they've shown so far) do you honestly feel confident being able to defend the AD's, Jokic's, JJJr's, Giannis's, Adebayo's, etc IF we even get that far sans Ayton? Beyond that, And beyond playing Durant consider/ excessive minutes throughout the entire postseason maybe even occasionally at the three, who would we have in our frontcourt that could even remotely guard the elite bigs such as AD, Jokic, JJjr/ Adams combo, Kwahi/ George (who still dominate in the frontcourt, Doncic/Kleber/ Powell which will absolutely look to switch and target our lack of frontcourt size (sans Ayton premise)? Can we expect any of Warren, Craig, Bazely, Ish to even reasonably defend against these aforementioned bigs we'll have to beat to even make it to the finals again to face whichever of the Bucks, Celtics, maybe even Heat that make it to the finals?

I get the whole Durant factor to offset opposing teams strengths against us strategically. And perhaps you and Qwiggs might be right that his acquisition alone offsets any of those concerns. But even so, the general idea here is to shore up all available positional weaknesses and depth weaknesses against the possibility of other teams being able to more easily strategize against us. And Durant for all his greatness, is not the shimmering example of durability! especially not IF he'll have to play significant minutes at the center position against the bigger, physical, dominant bigs we'll possibly encounter or have to go through in the postseason. Honestly, neither Durant nor Paul are great examples of durability and are absolute wild cards in the event of excessive usage resulting from potential injuries, foul trouble, strategic matchups. It's wonderful to field such incredible and unyielding optimism that this is our year finally!! But we've seen this perspective before haven't we with having such blind optimism, only to be sent home every season the past three years while skirting/ neglecting the need to shore up positional weaknesses. Milwaukee utilized our lack of size with a frontcourt lineup of [b]Giannis, Lopez, Portis.[/b] to dominate us in the frontcourt once they got Ayton in foul trouble, and then by shot making, and physicality once we got rattled. Just last season, the Pels first utilized our lack of size, youth, athleticism to almost beat us in the first round. We had no answers defensively for Ingram or Valuncias, etc and were absolutely on the verge of being sent home embarrassingly UNTIL Paul and Ayton BOTH had epic outlier dominant performances just to save us from elimination. Then in the 2nd round against Dallas was an even more obvious example of opposing teams exploiting our size, and positional depth weaknesses repeatedly in switching matchups and through size and physicality with Kleber/Powell against Ayton. So in any of these potential postseason matchups, Sure we'd have the X factor of Durant, But IF something unforeseen does happen (probably won't though because as we know, us suns fans are so unbelievably lucky .....right) other teams knowing that neither Biyombo nor Landale is an offensive threat consideration, they'll more easily be able to double or maybe even triple (as Book and Paul are great but still erratic and oft unpredictable in big game situations) Durant to minimize his impact while their frontcourt simply outplays ours after wearing down Durant. It just seems incredibly shortsighted to me to not seek/prioritize shoring up any available positional weaknesses that would obviously be targeted/exploited in order to better sustain our key stars workloads doesn't it?

Again, I really hope that you and Qwiggle's are right that the Durant acquisition is the solution to all of our concerns, as it would mean our first ever championship. But history and our excessively poor luck over the past couple years have shown it to be a more than valid concern. Regardless, I'll find it very interesting to see the outcome of both differing perspectives in the coming postseason.

You say you don't care but you keep bringing up the front courts of other teams? Your original premise is that *OUR* front court is somehow going to get slaughtered IF DA misses time for whatever reason and then you brought up like a dozen names on other teams.

I've looked at the front courts of other playoff teams and honestly, none of them stand out unless their front court already involves an elite big like Embiid, Giannis, Jokic, AD but that's the case for every other team who may have to deal with those elite of the elite bigs. Adding a guy like Love for example (who's unfortunately off the market now) does nothing for you against these guys so if DA goes down, you likely won't have a chance to slow them down. We're lucky we even have a DA on our team that can give as much as he can take on the court. Guys like Zubac, Plumlee, Looney, Timelord and Adams are all solid to great defenders but they won't can't drop 20pts+ on you. DA can give you elite defense AND drop 25 on you. If any of those other teams lose their Zubac or Adams due to foul trouble, they are in as much trouble as any other team losing their starting big and there's really no buy out or FA that is really going to change that.

On the other hand, we've got one of maybe 3 guys in the league that is nearly as unguardable as they come and can score from anywhere on the court. When you have a guy like that on your team, he can balance out what potential depth issues we may have in the front court because the other team will have to give up something defensively to try and stop that man. When was the last time a playoff team had a legitimate answer for KD and how many of those teams exists among those in the playoffs?

[Saberestar]

We don't have any problem regarding height and size.

KD and Ayton both have a 7'5 wingspan. That's our starting frontcourt.

Then you have 3 bigs on the bench: Landale, Biyombo and Bazley. And a couple wings that can play effectively PF (Craig and Warren).

Bazley is our last man in the interior rotation and he is just there as an insurance. He can play PF and small ball 5.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I recognize your opinion here on this man, but I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you here on this! Remember our finals appearance against Milwaukee and the big lineups they killed us with such as Giannis/Portis/Lopez lineups. It was so bad that we had to go get Javale Mcgee to try and counter it. Also teams like the Pels last year killing up with Valuncias and BI, wherein BI was just too big and long for our frontcourt wings to handle. Then in Dallas wherein Doncic was too big for Craig or even Crowder to guard and utilizing their size in switches with Kleber and Powell out playing us physically. Then even this year, you have teams with big lineups throughout that give us problems such as Memphis with Adams and JJJr, Atlanta with Capela, Collins and Okungwu. The Clippers just the other night with Zubac and Plumlee, etc. The thing is we all know that in the postseason, the game slows down and gets a lot more physical with refs swallowing their whistles in games. So If by some off chance Ayton happens to get injured, or gets in early foul trouble in a series, are you actually telling me that you feel confident playing against elite bigs/ frontcourts with Biyombo and Landale playing heavy minutes given what they've shown and what we know of them?? We absolutely need another big for frontcourt insurance knowing that beyond KD, Warren isn't a good defender, Craig has been mediocre at best, Ish can't really do much more than foul a lot and get burned by faster players, he's solid offensively but just can't keep pace defensively. And Bazely hasn't even got playing time yet and as we know with Monty, he might not even play him much if at all in the postseason.

So which of our current frontcourt players (IF not playing KD heavy minutes) If Ayton misses time or gets in foul trouble would you feel confident against the AD's, Adam's, JJJr's, Jokic's, Embiid's Giannis/Lopez/ Portis lineups. Or the Timelord/Horford lineups? Or the Collins/Capella/Okungwu lineups? This is why I just can't share your perspective here on our frontcourt man. It'll be really interesting to see whose perspective was accurate on this premise IF the suns choose to not add another quality big!

The Finals against the Bucks was probably one of the best Finals in recent history. It was an ultimate chess match that was decided by a couple of key possessions.

- Was it really though?? I mean obviously they beat us by getting Ayton in foul trouble with a big, physical frontline off: Giannis, Lopez, Portis. As well as pounding us physically to the point wherein we got rattled and struggled offensively. Not to mention the blantant one sided foul calls against Ayton on Giannis. They simply dominated us with size, physicality, we became flustered and struggled offensively. So not that much of a chess match I'd say. That's why we prioritized getting bigger by adding Mcgee now wasn't it?

Trying to match what all of the other teams in the league are doing is not the best formula to win. Suns just got Kevin Durant, who is a top 5 (at least 7) scorer of all time. The magnitude of having a player of his caliber is a wider gap than trying to find a PF/C role player that can guard other bigs, defend in the paint, and rebound. First off, we aren't getting someone who is going to be that big of a difference maker. Love likely deciding to go to Miami is because he will have a bigger role there than what the Suns could offer where he would probably play a solid 15 minutes a game at most. With the Heat, Love is playing 25 minutes a game and that is role he wants. I think Love would have a better chance at a championship with the Suns but again... if its about having a larger role, than I see him choosing the Heat. I don't think Philly has a major chance at acquiring Love.

- It's not about trying to match what other teams are doing though as much as it is trying to shore up exploitable weaknesses that would be strategically targeted by opposing teams in the postseason to try and better sustain mismatch effectiveness by not increasing Durant's workload in frontcourt situations. But also in preventing opposing teams being able to more easily exploit those specific weaknesses to have easier and higher percentage offensive opportunities. IF the opposing team can consistently get more rebound opportunities and obviously higher percentage buckets at/around the rim, then it only makes our starters jobs more difficult to have to consistently outscore the other team. This depth premise is about mitigating that concern as in the postseason, buckets get harder to come by as the physicality increases and the refs swallow their whistles more. There's just no reason to make things easier for opposing teams, while adding to our team's workload. Unless our goal is to wear down/ burn out our starters before we might ever reach the finals or our goal of a championship! Why not just to try to make things easier for us rather than downplaying legitimate concerns and further stacking the deck against us? And how exactly do you know we wouldn't be able to sign someone impactful/ or a difference maker anyways when we'd have until April to still sign someone towards the postseason. I'm disappointed in Love choosing to go elsewhere, but now that he's chosen too, I could care less about that situation and am focused on mitigating our exploitable weaknesses to lessen the workload for our starters through more depth. By mitigating these exploitable weaknesses, we'd lessen the workload on the starters by offsetting what Durant, Book, and Paul would have to provide additionally in order to offset those exploitable weaknesses.

And again I am only confident if the Suns remain healthy. If the Suns were that concerned in the depth at the PF/C spot then they wouldn't have traded Saric for Bazley, but they did in order to acquire a solid scorer who can come in off the bench in the buyout market (Ross, Barton, etc). What two teams made the NBA Western Conference last year? The Mavs and Warriors. Do they have an intimidating frontcourt?

I'm confident as well IF the suns sustain health and are healthy. And IF they are actually healthy the full time and through the postseason, then these concerns I've postulated over become moderately irrelevant. They traded Saric because it was fairly obvious that he was a liability defensively and also because we gave up significant draft assets in the Durant deal. So Bazely was brought in as a compromise to address our defensive versatility concerns as well as to cater to or indulge significant fan interests/ concerns towards projectable long term youth development post Paul era. Sure it helped clear cap space to add Ross too, But the primary reason behind adding Bazely was to attempt to address defensively versatility concerns over Saric's slow, plodding, unathletic sub NBA physical capabilities. Obviously Dallas and the Warriors were outlier scenarios last year as the Warriors have two all time historic level HOF elite shooters/ scorers in Curry and Thompson as well as an ALL NBA elite frontcourt defender (in Green) as well as an Allstar elite level two-way wing in Wiggins. And they swept the Mavs due to not having a dominant frontcourt (the very premise that you're currently downplaying ironically) which caused them to prioritize adding Wood and Mcgee. But even so, the Mavs as recently as last year dominated us in switches due to lack of size defensively in switches and also in the frontcourt with Kleber and Powell dominating Craig, Crowder, etc in the paint. This led to us becoming flustered again and we struggled offensively and with our defensive rotations through doubling and collapsing trying to mitigate their size exploitation, leaving their shooters open to get hot and bury us. So i'm sorry, but that's the unpopular reality of what happened. But their size disparity and frontcourt dominance/physicality led to them eliminating us in historically embarrassing fashion for perspective.


Suns lost to the Clippers who were fully healthy, Booker is still probably at 85% healthy, and Suns didn't have Durant. You are worried for Zubac and Plumlee? Worrying about the Eastern Conference is silly. Who made it to the Eastern Conference Finals? Heat and Celtics. They don't have dominant imposing bigs.

I'm more concerned about the postseason strategic matchups that'll be targeted and exploited against any positional weaknesses as we've seen repeatedly done successfully resulting in us suffering early exits! Having potential situations wherein our core big three have to increase their workload and production in order to offset these potential weaknesses in strategic matchups are unnecessary negligence that'll result in putting more significant pressure on them and wearing them down more quickly even possibly before we achieve our ultimate goal to our detriment when you consider that neither Paul nor Durant are strong examples of durability. And worrying about the Eastern conference is not at all silly considering we'll absolutely have to successfully go through whichever elite East coast team makes the finals! Whether it's the Bucks or the the Celtics. And I find it puzzling that you don't think either Timelord or Adebayo can be dominant and/ or imposing in post season matchups?? I think this perspective might unfortunately be crossing the line from extreme confidence to misplaced Hubris! But I'm more than fine seeing how things play out to validate or invalidate my premised concerns.

Games slow down in the playoffs, and you know who thrives in those situations? Players that are capable of creating their own offense. Players that are capable of hitting mid range jumpers.

Of course things slow down in the playoffs, so that is true. But it's also true that the game gets more physical, refs swallow their whistles more (except when it comes to Ayton for whatever reason ), and "buckets" are harder to come by as a result of the increased physicality and intensity. Remind me again of how our big three due with playing against increased physicality and increased pressure IF looking back over the results of the past three seasons? Also how well does Durant handle physicality in this scenario? Our offense might become much harder to come by IF the paint gets packed with little room to operate in the mid range? How might that affect our "mid range mafia" mid range dominant stars do you suppose man?? Especially IF Ayton went down or had to sit due to foul trouble, with other teams knowing that neither Biyombo nor Landale can sufficiently space the floor or are offensive threats. This would allow other teams to more easily double team or maybe even triple team Durant, thusly minimizing his impact. And If we happen to struggle from midrange under this premise, then where does our offense come from. Who aside from Durant and Ayton (currently on or roster) would be good enough defensively to slow down any of the Jokic/ Gordon/Porter jr combos, AD's (if healthy), the Jackson jr/ Adams combos, Or the Giannis/Lopez/Portis combos, or the Timelord/ Horford duos, or the Adebayo/ Love/Zeller combos if it came down to that? The point is that all of these things are true factors to consider in the postseason, and as the physicality/pressures increase too, Easy buckets will be critically important. The premise of our elite scoring weapons/shot creation only works if our creators have room to operate effectively and are actually hitting and not struggling. Given the age/durability issues around both Paul/ Durant already, and the corresponding increased physicality, pressure, strategic mismatches involved, depth (especially frontcourt) is absolutely a significant concern for us. But if it helps people by downplaying such things, more power to them. Personally considering our all in objective and what we've payed to have this "all in" opportunity, I'd prefer to mitigate those concerns as opposed to just casually disregarding them.

If the Suns are truly worried about not getting a backup big, I'm certain they will give Ibaka a call, who I'd probably prefer over Love anyway and would like to be the backup big inserted before Smack.

Well again, we'd have until right before April or basically around March 23rd (I believe) to still be able to sign an eligible player. So who really knows what can happen between then and now?? We might find out that the suns do in fact recognize the necessity for another quality 4/5 insurance frontcourt big man option. And are just waiting or expecting a specific player to become available. But the bottom line is that beyond Ayton himself and Durant, We really don't have competent defensive frontcourt depth at the backup 4, Nor do we have competent/ reliable floor spacing 5's in either Biyombo or Landale either. So both situations (if left unaddressed will be endlessly hunted/ targeted strategically by opposing teams to our detriment. And if we choose to do nothing to shore up these obvious positional weaknesses, then we only serve to increase the overall pressure, difficulty, and workload for our two wrong side of 30 stars with durability concerns, AND our promising near elite SG that unfortunately folds and struggles in big game big pressure situations when needed most. And also with legit injury/durability concerns. Again, I'd rather be safe than sorry, be proactive than reactive after the fact in hindsight (Even though we're an incredible hindsight team each season). Because it's better to HAVE THE DEPTH AND NOT NEED IT, than to NEED IT AND NOT HAVE IT! In the pursuit of our first ever championship in over 56 years!

[Djedefre]

This is not a basketball team but a geriatric park. Roster full of old geezers with questionable at best availability. Silly gamble for a fresh new owner. Fiasco awaits, so let's enjoy the disaster.

[RaisingArizona]

So nobody tries in the all star game anymore?

[lilfishi22]

So nobody tries in the all star game anymore?

Nothing competitive happens until maybe the 4th quarter. Could mostly just skip until then

[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

You could make the same argument for any other team. What if AG misses time? What if JJJr gets into foul trouble? What if ANY of the other starting bigs misses time? Which team has a strong playoff rotation if their starting big misses time?

Let's be real, most team's rotations are just as trash if their starting big misses time. If Zubac goes down and they replace him with Plumlee, yeah maybe there isn't a massive drop off but what's after that? Mook Morris? Batum? They aren't dominating anything in the paint. Not saying we don't have to add depth because depth is always a good thing but the idea that we're in some unique situation where if our starting C does down then we're in trouble is kinda of overblown.

I hear what you're saying man and it's a fair argument that any team could suffer injuries and other teams depth could be questioned too. But why at all would I be concerned with or invested in another team's depth and injuries equitably to our own as a suns fan?? Any issues for ANOTHER TEAM could only play to our benefit. Obviously I'm invested in our team's success here and within that capacity focusing on our potential depth/ injuries issues and concerns because I prefer to see us finally win a championship after over a half century of creatively finding new ways to lose, choke, come up short, fail expectations, etc or whatever anyone here prefers to phrase it as. It becomes increasingly paramount due to the cost we've paid in the trade to acquire Durant by heavily mortgaging our long term future. I could care less about these other teams concerns as I'm not a fan of their teams and don't consider their implicit stakes involved as heavy as ours dependent upon the final outcome! Have any other teams actually in a similar situation (aside from maybe the Clippers) mortgaged their future through surrendering core pieces, positional roster depth, cost controlled draft assets, cap flexibility for the foreseeable future?? And IF so, compare the acquired piece in terms of long term projection/viability considering age, durability concerns and overall roster composition long term! Only the Flakers and maybe the Clippers should be found in a somewhat similar situation in terms of what they've mortgaged for an "all in" move! That's why in my humble estimation, If you're legitimately gambling with such significant long term assets exchange to go "all in" towards winning a championship, It's critically important to try and mitigate or shore up any potential weaknesses or deficiencies towards the postseason WHEREIN we all know the elite teams we'll have to beat to even get back to the finals will absolutely be dissecting and strategizing against us using these weaknesses in various matchup schemes.

Knowing and accepting that it already takes a tremendous amount of luck to even make it to the finals and win a championship, and understanding that even though the game slows down, the postseason becomes exponentially more physical, grinding, difficult and strategic matchups will be prevalent, depth absolutely becomes a very tangible concern. Now how that factors into my initial premise of needing another big for depth is as simple as the fact that another team's injuries are irrelevant to my initial premise. For example, IF by some chance Ayton does go down to an injury or even has to sit due to foul trouble (it's not like he gets the benefit of the whistles now is it)? Then we really only have Biyombo, who while solid defensively has nearly no offensive game to speak of and can't hit free throws either. Now what's to keep opposing teams from systematically targeting him with the "hack a Shaq" strategy or simply sagging off of him and packing in the paint to further complicate trying to score in the midrange? And with Landale not being able to adequately space the floor either or even defend well without making continuous dumb fouls that could render him irrelevant? On top of that, Which of those two bigs (given what they've shown so far) do you honestly feel confident being able to defend the AD's, Jokic's, JJJr's, Giannis's, Adebayo's, etc IF we even get that far sans Ayton? Beyond that, And beyond playing Durant consider/ excessive minutes throughout the entire postseason maybe even occasionally at the three, who would we have in our frontcourt that could even remotely guard the elite bigs such as AD, Jokic, JJjr/ Adams combo, Kwahi/ George (who still dominate in the frontcourt, Doncic/Kleber/ Powell which will absolutely look to switch and target our lack of frontcourt size (sans Ayton premise)? Can we expect any of Warren, Craig, Bazely, Ish to even reasonably defend against these aforementioned bigs we'll have to beat to even make it to the finals again to face whichever of the Bucks, Celtics, maybe even Heat that make it to the finals?

I get the whole Durant factor to offset opposing teams strengths against us strategically. And perhaps you and Qwiggs might be right that his acquisition alone offsets any of those concerns. But even so, the general idea here is to shore up all available positional weaknesses and depth weaknesses against the possibility of other teams being able to more easily strategize against us. And Durant for all his greatness, is not the shimmering example of durability! especially not IF he'll have to play significant minutes at the center position against the bigger, physical, dominant bigs we'll possibly encounter or have to go through in the postseason. Honestly, neither Durant nor Paul are great examples of durability and are absolute wild cards in the event of excessive usage resulting from potential injuries, foul trouble, strategic matchups. It's wonderful to field such incredible and unyielding optimism that this is our year finally!! But we've seen this perspective before haven't we with having such blind optimism, only to be sent home every season the past three years while skirting/ neglecting the need to shore up positional weaknesses. Milwaukee utilized our lack of size with a frontcourt lineup of [b]Giannis, Lopez, Portis.[/b] to dominate us in the frontcourt once they got Ayton in foul trouble, and then by shot making, and physicality once we got rattled. Just last season, the Pels first utilized our lack of size, youth, athleticism to almost beat us in the first round. We had no answers defensively for Ingram or Valuncias, etc and were absolutely on the verge of being sent home embarrassingly UNTIL Paul and Ayton BOTH had epic outlier dominant performances just to save us from elimination. Then in the 2nd round against Dallas was an even more obvious example of opposing teams exploiting our size, and positional depth weaknesses repeatedly in switching matchups and through size and physicality with Kleber/Powell against Ayton. So in any of these potential postseason matchups, Sure we'd have the X factor of Durant, But IF something unforeseen does happen (probably won't though because as we know, us suns fans are so unbelievably lucky .....right) other teams knowing that neither Biyombo nor Landale is an offensive threat consideration, they'll more easily be able to double or maybe even triple (as Book and Paul are great but still erratic and oft unpredictable in big game situations) Durant to minimize his impact while their frontcourt simply outplays ours after wearing down Durant. It just seems incredibly shortsighted to me to not seek/prioritize shoring up any available positional weaknesses that would obviously be targeted/exploited in order to better sustain our key stars workloads doesn't it?

Again, I really hope that you and Qwiggle's are right that the Durant acquisition is the solution to all of our concerns, as it would mean our first ever championship. But history and our excessively poor luck over the past couple years have shown it to be a more than valid concern. Regardless, I'll find it very interesting to see the outcome of both differing perspectives in the coming postseason.

You say you don't care but you keep bringing up the front courts of other teams? Your original premise is that *OUR* front court is somehow going to get slaughtered IF DA misses time for whatever reason and then you brought up like a dozen names on other teams.

- I don't care because IF...........AGAIN IF we're healthy OR actually address the frontcourt depth issues I'm talking about then my concerns would be mitigated because either Ayton would be playing against opposing teams starting bigs OR else we'd have additional depth to offset those positional weaknesses AS OPPOSED TO having our end of bench level (one way bigs) play against the Ad's, Jokic's, Jaren Jackson Jr's, etc. Those names were obviously brought up as examples for what our bench level bigs would have to be matched against. But worrying about other team's lineups does nothing to obviously address the concerns I have for this team (the suns). So again, why would I focus concerns on other teams when it's our frontcourt that would be significantly struggling/ targeted against opposing teams starters? And by the way, I never said or used the term slaughtered! That's your specific phrasing to try and portray my perspective as being overtly and unnecessarily hyperbolic to attempt to discredit my perspective in interest of furthering your own perspective). The simple truth here is that either of our backup bigs (in Biyombo and Landale would get repeatedly targeted and have their weaknesses exploited even significantly to the detriment of our team. Also, Beyond playing Durant basically the entire game, IF Ayton is unavailable for whatever reason too, Which of our remaining 4's do you honestly trust to sufficiently defend against the players like: Le' Douche/ AD, Ingram/Zion, Kwahi/ Georges Doncic/Wood, Jaren Jackson Jr/ Adams, A Gordons/Porter Jr, Adebayo/ Butler, Tatum/ J Brown/ Timelord/ Horford, Giannis/Lopez/Portis, etc?? Which of Warren, Craig, Bazely, Ish?? do you really trust to cover any of these players/duos' we might face in the postseason? It comes down to the reality of our bench options playing against opposing teams elite starting frontcourts, and the most likely outcome as a result. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about that initial premise. I'm concerned about the implications of our potential depth issues. Other teams' concerns don't address ours. Thusly those considerations are irrelevant to my initial premise beyond the above stated concerns.

I've looked at the front courts of other playoff teams and honestly, none of them stand out unless their front court already involves an elite big like Embiid, Giannis, Jokic, AD but that's the case for every other team who may have to deal with those elite of the elite bigs. Adding a guy like Love for example (who's unfortunately off the market now) does nothing for you against these guys so if DA goes down, you likely won't have a chance to slow them down. We're lucky we even have a DA on our team that can give as much as he can take on the court. Guys like Zubac, Plumlee, Looney, Timelord and Adams are all solid to great defenders but they won't can't drop 20pts+ on you. DA can give you elite defense AND drop 25 on you. If any of those other teams lose their Zubac or Adams due to foul trouble, they are in as much trouble as any other team losing their starting big and there's really no buy out or FA that is really going to change that.

- The idea is that you'd have a better chance with another big that could offer offensive floor spacing, rebounding and hit free throws though to not have as significantly glaring/ exploitable weaknesses as what Landale and Biyombo have shown cumulatively. But also in terms of having enough big men/ frontcourt (4 or 5) positional depth to help cover in case of rapidly accumulated fouls against those elite starting frontcourt players, Or in the event of unforeseen injuries. I'd rather have the depth and not need it than to need it and not have it because we were overly confident and downplayed (YET AGAIN) addressing our positional depth concerns. I get that those players you mentioned might not be likely to drop 20 points on you, but they can all defend, rebound and control the paint effectively and occasionally to a significant level. But also draw fouls and play physically against you to wear you down too. Now consider when either Biyombo or Landale are on the court (sans Ayton per premise) and these other teams being aware that neither offer reliable floor spacing so they can clog the paint and make midrange creation (a staple for our big three's effectiveness more difficult. Kind of hard to create offense in the midrange when the paint is congested due to lack of floor spacing? Also late game situations, What if they employ "hack a Biyombo" since he can't hit his free throws? How playable is he then in a series for us? We NEED another reliable insurance option against these potential strategies now don't we? Also still waiting on an answer to my question about our defensive/ rebounding concerns beyond playing Durant the whole game which would be extraordinarily risky given his importance to us and durability issues too? Which of Warren, Craig, Bazely, Ish should we count on defensively to carry the defensive and rebounding loads whenever Durant must sit? Are these really not legitimate concerns to you?

On the other hand, we've got one of maybe 3 guys in the league that is nearly as unguardable as they come and can score from anywhere on the court. When you have a guy like that on your team, he can balance out what potential depth issues we may have in the front court because the other team will have to give up something defensively to try and stop that man. When was the last time a playoff team had a legitimate answer for KD and how many of those teams exists among those in the playoffs?

- I get the X factor of having Durant to offset potential depth concerns in what other teams give up in defending him! (as long as he can hold up in terms of durability) And for the record, I want you and Qwiggles to actually be right about it not being a significant or legitimate concern due to having Durant. But just the same, two of our big three are well past 30, and have noted significant durability issues!! Now this does become an important consideration in the argument towards necessary additional depth because for every positional weakness or weakness due to lack of size, rebounding, defense, inability to space the floor or hit free throws will of course be targeted relentlessly and exploited by other teams strategically. So when this happens, the overall pressure and corresponding workload on our big three is increased unnecessarily, possibly resulting in having to play excessive minutes, early wear and tear/ exhaustion and reduced impact. All of this would be highly unnecessary and easily avoidable If we instead choose to prioritize additional depth to actually afford our starters more rest/ load management. Even aside from the age factor and noted durability concerns, as we know, things get much more difficult in the postseason with increased physicality (which our delicate team doesn't respond well to), as well as the margins for errors being razor thin as every game will be heavily strategized and an ultimate chess match. Situational depth will be critical in certain matchups obviously. So why add to our already high level of difficulty rather than seek to somewhat insulate ourselves from it and maybe just maybe improve our overall odds of success by affording our big three more rest and greater sustainability throughout the homestretch?? Lastly, as for your question as to which team or player/players last had a legitimate answer against KD, and how many of those teams exist among those in the playoffs?? The last time was actually only last year, And as for the teams that he has or would struggle playing against:

Boston Celtics (Tatum and Horford gave him significant struggles defensively)
https://www.sportscasting.com/kevin-durant-postseason-struggles-highlight-fatal-flaw-brooklyn-nets-roster/
https://www.sportscasting.com/kevin-durant-legacy-continues-crumble-postseason-losses-celtics/

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Both articles and videos indicate that teams with aggressive physical defense and swarming defenses/ physicality frustrate Durant and give him significant troubles getting into rhythm.

As for the teams that KD has struggled most against:
- 2022 Celtics. They beat him with physical play and aggressive swarming defense that frustrated him and didn't let him get into an offensive rhythm.
- 2011 Memphis Grizzlies.
- 2014 San Antonio Spurs.

Currently you'd have: (around 8 teams currently)
- The Warriors (with Green, Iguodala, and Wiggins).
- Clippers (with Kwahi, George and Covington).
- Celtics (with Tatum, Horford, Smart).
- Flakers (with Le' Douche and Vanderbilt).
- Pels (with Ingram and Jones).
- Grizzlies (with Dillon Brooks and Jaren Jackson Jr).
- Philly 76ers (with PJ tucker).
- Bucks (with Giannis, Holiday, etc).
Honestly though the common theme in all of Durant's significant struggles are aggressive, physical swarming POA defenders that make it tough for ball handlers. Defenders that are multi positional and adept at creating deflections and getting steals too. This is because as great of an offensive player as he is, he's predominantly a finesse player and doesn't do well against physicality and aggressive physical defenders. So really, you could add any potential playoff teams with those kind of defenders/ defenses.




So far the players are Tatum, Horford, Pat Bev, Vanderbilt, Tony Allen, Kwahi Leonard, Paul George, Brandon Ingram, Robert Covington, PJ Tucker, Jaren Jackson Jr, Andre Iguodala and Draymond Green, Giannis.

[bwgood77]

This is not a basketball team but a geriatric park. Roster full of old geezers with questionable at best availability. Silly gamble for a fresh new owner. Fiasco awaits, so let's enjoy the disaster.

I agree with most of that...the last sentence I somewhat agree with but think there is also a chance if somehow a team that hasn't been healthy all year and traded their guy who never misses a game for a guy that has played 90 games in the past 3 seasons and is out now. If the team and stars suddenly somehow stay healthy for the next 4 months and they have the luck you need to win it all, maybe it pays off this year and/or possibly next. But CP3 hasn't show he can stay healthy in the playoffs, Book got injured last year and KD has been injured every year of the last 4 (though was healthy the last two seasons in the playoffs where he made it to the 2nd round and then last year got swept).

Even if we win one, it may not be worth it to me depending on the next decade.

But hopefully I am wrong on not liking the trade and in 2026 after a threepeat and having drafted a budding star in 24 and getting Bridges back that summer (and maybe Lillard?) along with the other pick in 26we have this decade people can make fun of me and say "remember when you didn't like that trade?"

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

[lilfishi22]

Nobody has time to reply to all that so I'll just get to the point here.

Neither Qwigz nor I are against using the last roster spot (or last 2 if we waive Jock) to add more depth. I'm only saying as things are currently, no one can make up for the absence of a DA. Just like you can't fully make up for the absence of a Book or a CP3. Just like there's no way the C's can make up for the absence of a Timelord, or the Mavs of a Kyrie. If you lose a starter of a certain calibre, you just gotta deal with it and hope your other guys step up because no back up is going to fully make up for what's been lost. And again, we're not in some unique situation where if we lost one of our most important bigs that we're going to be in trouble because that's the case for every single team out there.

We'll struggle against some teams and do better against others. Just as the teams you've listed will struggle with some and do better against others. Then they'll still have to contend with Book, CP3 and they can't pack the paint either because they'll need at least one of their bigs to step out to defend KD which means more single coverage for DA. The Nets with KD/Kyrie/Harden might be the most theoretically potent offensive team but I'd argue our team is maybe a tier below in potency but way more well rounded simply because of the DA factor. The Nets didn't have anything in the paint other than when their big 3 drove in.

- The Warriors (with Green, Iguodala, and Wiggins). :Yeah I'm not worried about them. Their defense has slumped significantly and I'm not worried about near 40 year old Iggy or Wiggins

- Clippers (with Kwahi, George and Covington) :Kawhi and PG are legit defenders, as is Zubac/Plumlee in the paint but Covington is not a good POA defender, at all. Last few games, KD has averaged something like 28/6/4 against them on elite efficiency.)

- Celtics (with Tatum, Horford, Smart): strong defensive team with strong POA defenders but again, it's pick your poison. They throw Horford our at KD and what? He'll just drive past him. Smart is an elite defender but KD can just shoot over. They'll be a tough match up for sure but no amount of back up bigs is going to change that)

- Flakers (with Le' Douche and Vanderbilt): ...yeah we'll see if they make playoffs first but they don't worry me one bit.

- Pels (with Ingram and Jones): solid defensively but we beat them without Book for most of the games. They were missing Zion so that's a major factor but we now have a KD

- Grizzlies (with Dillon Brooks and Jaren Jackson Jr): Another strong defensive team but they also tend to go small in the playoffs and playing Adams much fewer minutes than in the regular season. If they go smaller then again, who are they throwing at KD? JJJr? OK then who gets DA? Clarke? I'd put my money on DA there.

- Philly 76ers (with PJ tucker): KD has averaged put up 35/10 against PJ with Milwaukee a couple of playoffs ago.

- Bucks (with Giannis, Holiday, etc): imo the Bucks still pose the biggest issue for the Suns simply because they have the size if they want to go big but because of how versatile Giannis is, they can also go small with Giannis playing the 5 who could shut down DA. But it's not like a some 3rd stringer big is going to change that..

Regardless, no team really builds their roster to stop one guy or one team. They have a team built for as many scenarios as possible but it's not possible to cover every single one, it just isn't. I mean out of the guys available to sign now or possible be bought out, who's seriously moving the needle? IMO our biggest issue in the playoffs when we've lost is not being able to find a reliable source of offense when we needed it. G6-7 against Dallas, we crapped the bed. Our best scorer averaged 15pts. With KD we've addressed that inconsistency.

[RaisingArizona]

So nobody tries in the all star game anymore?

Nothing competitive happens until maybe the 4th quarter. Could mostly just skip until then

It was pathetic all night long. They need to switch formats or just forgo it for a GLeague game where the players would give a ****

[SunsRback4Good]

So nobody tries in the all star game anymore?

Nothing competitive happens until maybe the 4th quarter. Could mostly just skip until then

It was pathetic all night long. They need to switch formats or just forgo it for a GLeague game where the players would give a ****

They already ruined it by going away from East to West format. And now with the no defense cause players are afraid to get injured is the icing on the cake. All-Star game used to mean something watching it as a kid but lately it’s unbearable with no defense and shooting a ton of threes and half court shots. Bring back the beautiful passing, dunks and most importantly a bit defense then maybe the game will have meaning again but until then it’s nothing but a circus.

[garrick]

Nothing competitive happens until maybe the 4th quarter. Could mostly just skip until then

It was pathetic all night long. They need to switch formats or just forgo it for a GLeague game where the players would give a ****

They already ruined it by going away from East to West format. And now with the no defense cause players are afraid to get injured is the icing on the cake. All-Star game used to mean something watching it as a kid but lately it’s unbearable with no defense and shooting a ton of threes and half court shots. Bring back the beautiful passing, dunks and most importantly a bit defense then maybe the game will have meaning again but until then it’s nothing but a circus.

I'll watch the all star game if Booker is on it but otherwise it's a snoozefest compared to past games where they at least played a little bit of defense. Now it's just a layup line and 3pt shooting contest with both teams inflating the score.

[lilfishi22]

Nothing competitive happens until maybe the 4th quarter. Could mostly just skip until then

It was pathetic all night long. They need to switch formats or just forgo it for a GLeague game where the players would give a ****

They already ruined it by going away from East to West format. And now with the no defense cause players are afraid to get injured is the icing on the cake. All-Star game used to mean something watching it as a kid but lately it’s unbearable with no defense and shooting a ton of threes and half court shots. Bring back the beautiful passing, dunks and most importantly a bit defense then maybe the game will have meaning again but until then it’s nothing but a circus.

Quite frankly, the other events outside of the actual all-star game is far more interesting to me. I still love the the 3PT contest because that's a test of skill that doesn't require outward athleticism, likewise with the skills challenge. The dunk contest has mostly been meh over the years with maybe 2 dunks an entire event that's actually interesting.

Pretty much given up on the ASG unless a Suns player is in it.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Since Booker and Simmons are no longer dating the same person?

[starbosa10]

Since Booker and Simmons are no longer dating the same person?

Simmons is damaged goods at this point. Especially with the contract he's on

[NavLDO]

Our C/PF rotation is fine. The narrative that bigger teams punish smaller teams in the playoffs is an exaggeration. This isn't 1990's basketball, and in the playoffs teams don't suddenly change scripts and try to change their entire offensive scheme. I do want to mention that teams should remain flexible in having the ability to change their offense, but I think the Suns will be the most versatile team to do that come playoff time.

Also, what teams are going to destroy the Suns because the Suns are smaller? The top team in the West have Jokic, and then 6'8 Aaron Gordon and 6'8 Michael Porter Jr. The Grizzlies have Adams and JJJ, but JJJ is not really a post player taking more than 1/3 of his shots at the 3P line. The 3rd place Kings are running a small ball lineup, and the Clippers traditionally try and play small ball to run opposing teams out of the gym (similar to SSOL Suns). Pelicans and Wolves are currently 7th and 8th in the West with last year champs Warriors sitting in 9th and Lakers down sitting 5 games below .500.

I think above all though, you have it backwards. Teams are going to have to worry about how they are going to guard the Suns (if everyone is healthy).

Porter is 6-10
Then they have Bryant now with 6-11
Then Gancar at 6-9 at least.

Clippers have Zubac at 7-2
Plumlee at 6-10
Morris at 6-9
Batum at 6-8

Grizzlies have Adams at 7-0
JJJ at 6-10/6-11
Then Aldama at 6-11
Then Clarke at 6-10/6-11

The Jazz, that could be in the mix, have

Markannen at 7-0
Kessler at 7-0
Olynik at 6-11
Azubuike at 6-11

Sacramento is not that small, as they play Sabonis, Barnes and another SF-PF at the same time. Then they make use of Lyles and others.

Clarke is 6'8

If you are putting some backups in there, we have, starting,

Ayton - 7'0
KD - 6'10
Landale - 6'11
Biyombo - 6'8, but a solid defender/rebounder
Also, Craig is a great rebounder and solid defender and is 6'7

But if teams go big and we go smaller, they will have trouble guarding us. Memphis could guard our bigs ok, but they couldn't double KD, and as good as JJJ is on, KD is still almost impossible to guard given his length and shot creation.

As BW has just shown, we have enough height on the team to combat most other teams, but even that is not the critical piece....the more important measurement, if it's being able to defend bigs is your concern, is a player's Wingspan. That is the more critical measurement, and we have that in spades...

DA - 7'6"
KD - 7'5"
Bazely - 7'0"
Okogie - 7'0"

...and the big daddy of them all...Bismack has a 7'7" Wingspan. I'm not counting Landale, as I don't think he'll be on the team by then, or even if he is, is playing time will be severely limited, but if absolutely required, he has a 7'2" Wingspan.

You are arguing guys like Olynyk as being 'tall', but his wingspan is just 6'10"...

[bwgood77]

I seriously doubt they cut Landale. He hasn't been good, but he is one of the few non starters we hold the rights to next season and is a RFA. I don't know if they would keep him but we don't know if we can find Cs on the market in the summer. He is a decent defender an ok rebounder, and likely can play better, and has played well at times. I don't expect him to get offers this summer so we could maybe keep him for slightly more than the minimum and can also wait until FA, see if we can find minimum back up bigs, and if we can, cut him then. He could also be a throw in trade piece. Aside from 4 of the starters, we only have the rights to Payne and Shamet next season and I guess Bazley is a RFA who will probably be cheap if we want to keep. Hopefully we are able to keep Craig, but it's not a guarantee if someone will pay him more than the tax MLE.